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 Crank pulley, Stock VS lighten.

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speed2horizon
post Feb 18 2012, 02:39 AM

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QUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Feb 1 2012, 01:17 AM)
Well said and well written.. i honestly appreciate it

back to the context of LCPs, why do I or others place RnD and proper engineering on a high pedestal when anyone can make a good performance part? Simple, and let me take you up on your extractor story.
I have reasonable welding skills and I previously handmade a turbo manifold out of high grade,heavy gauge buttweld fittings. Was it hard? very. Did it work? perfectly..in fact it was neater and i put in a considerable effort in calculating the fluid dynamics of exhaust gases in an effort to maximize scavenging effect. After roughly a year and a half, a small leak appeared in the weld joint and started leaving toxic exhaust gases. I check my engine bay regularly and diagnosed the problem and fixed it. Speaking to a few other friends, they have purchased aftermarket extractors which had similar leaks and they brushed it off. This is serious shit. If you breathe in the toxic carbon monoxide gases over a prolonged period of time in a confined environment, you will DIE..no doubts, no second chances. Therefore should there be an importance in choosing a quality extractor from a cap ayam one? I would say yes..


Hmm.... It would be interesting to know how do u calculate the scavenging effect on a TURBO manifold when we're expecting the turbo manifold pressure to be positive due to the restriction of the turbine fins. Unless ur turbine sucks in exhaust rather than the turbine wheel is recovering the energy and heat from the exhaust... CFD..?

Bro, actually The best tubular manifolds cracks in time... Had a Full race imported... But still cracks after 2 years...
U can know it from here.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...ength_manifolds

And also, u're talking about confined space... Not sure how do you define confined space with CO. In your cabin..? Ur leaking exhaust would be blended into the atmosphere before it even reaches you firewall. Needn't to talk about it entering your cabin. Worry more on the CO2 u are exhaling every seconds reducing the O2 concentration. Even then, The Old Japanese women and a young girl that was trapped in a TOYOTA Mark for 2 days inside a non running car sealed by water were still breathing.

Sorry I don't mean to be rude. I apologize in advance...

QUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Feb 1 2012, 01:17 AM)
What would the average lifespan of an engine be? Lets say 100,000km of hard driving before being overhauled. thats roughly 5 years give or take. Buying a half baked poorly designed part for instant gratification would not justify the possibilities of something going wrong. How would an unbalanced crank react spinning at 6000rpm? Engine malfunction? I can life with that..Could be worse.. does anyone care to educate the general public of these problems that may occur? Ask a mechanic how to increase your HP, he will say get a stroker it, janji laju..what are the side effects? Tada punya, saya sudah buat untuk banyak kereta..modifying is not something you wanna take on without proper research, reputable products and sincere mechanics


Meaning to say the best would be leaving the engine as stock. Cause the best machines available in town for balancing a crank is the factory itself... Perodua uses 16 process with different machines to process a raw cast into a balanced crank. Same goes to Proton. But though the crank was well balanced, but the sad thing is, the pistons and rods aren't.

BTW, CNC billet cut aluminium has the least imbalanced possibility. Well, don't shoot me for this. This is what Fidanza(being one of the best aftermarket flywheels brand) claimed in their certificate of purchase.

QUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Feb 1 2012, 01:17 AM)
Ive seen engine blocks with holes the size of a cigarette box because a bolt worked itself loose and shot out of the block..if it carries enough force it can go thru your firewall and kill you..it could hit a pedestrian and kill him or her..your car could sieze and hit another car, a motorcycle or a pedestrian. I find it rather irresponsible to say who cares when your decisions affect innocent unrelated people. no RnD? who cares! no QA? who cares! no QC? who cares!


I've know of the danger of broken flywheels going through firewall due to the momentum of the high speed rotation. That's why FIA/NHRA rules says it's necessary to install scatter shield. But of course there are possibilities of conrod flying out too... Seen one on my frend's drag car during his launch at SDB.

Most of the engines blocks with holes caused by conned rods were caused by a few things.

1) Hydrolocks aka engine masuk air. There was a post somewhere on a Stock GEN2. Search around.
2) Over rev without proper engineering assembly/parts/torque/etc.

QUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Feb 1 2012, 01:17 AM)
I guess its all fun and games until someone takes a chunk of 6000rpms worth of poorly designed crank pulley in the face. would you still care then?


Haha.... That would sure be painful...

QUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Feb 1 2012, 01:17 AM)
Use a product for a few months and everyones a brand ambassador. Why do we need quality, research, design, maths,physics,engineering when Muthu my trusty metalworker can turn a chunk of steel into a car part? Who cares? Malaysia boleh  thumbup.gif
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This has to go back to the demand and supply. How would poorly made JXXMA products survives if there's no demand. In fact, they have never claimed their parts have quality. It's back to the customers that kept looking for cheaper and cheaper stuff. Imagine, so many complains on JXXMA product and they are still surviving.... Simple, the appreciation of engineering has longed be forgotten... Price matters more... Maybe not for you and me... But for the majority of the market.

Cheers bro... have a nice day.
speed2horizon
post Feb 19 2012, 07:15 PM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Feb 18 2012, 02:23 PM)
Why does Garrett market a bolt on kit for the Evo X which exceeds the power handling capacity of the clutch at stock and markets it as a stock replacement?

Why do all the major for their first iterations of the X CAI all have issues with long term ECU compensation?

Why does Turbosmart market a replacement BOV that when vents to atmosphere ruins the AFR calculations of the ECU and can wreck the engine?

Why does Seibon market a carbon fiber hood that increases the likelihood of pedestrian death in the event of crash?

It is up to the end user to figure out a risk versus reward thing. Just that in the case of an LCP which concentrates only on weight, the reward is outweighed by the risk, because the reward is so little for the average driver. Simple as that and that has always been my personal argument.

Just because they're all famous brands, doesn't mean they don't play with risk. A lot of SAU members do not recommend the installation of the HKS lightened cam pulleys on the RB25/26 due to run out, so they just don't buy it. But but but it is from HKS, sure good one!

Even the likes of Cosworth can make crap sometimes for the sake of money  wink.gif
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Haha... Sounds funny la you...

1) Garrett stated something in the box... Please read the box and manual properly... Then start talking.
2) X CAI. I don't get what u meant.
3) A proper CF hood can break, but not disintegrate. Read your fiber and matrix.
4) The HKS camgear is the only camgear that will bit snap your belt due to sharp edges and material hardness. Also read the HKS manual properly on the maintenance and lifetime. Also the disclaimer.

QUOTE(bizzy @ Feb 18 2012, 05:05 PM)
alot still using Jasma brand without problem.. who dare to sell out in the market sure will no problem la. sure do research and follow design from famous brand in the market.

unless they plan to shut down they company just like that.
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You are a lucky guy. My friend just broke his Skunk 2 by jasma on his way back home... Not crank, not bushing failure, but it jsut snapped.

QUOTE(izso @ Feb 18 2012, 11:00 PM)
I don't think you understand Sid's argument. The point was "these companies don't have proper R&D" and the brands he quoted are all big names whom are well known to have their own R&D done on products they sell.

Anyway, regarding the discussion on the LCP and harmonic dampening - this is subjective. Race engines are stressed very much more than standard engines like yours and mine and hence their tolerance is very very small, which is why harmonic vibrations will affect a race engine. Stock Evo engines come with engine balancers to counter those harmonic vibrations that the engineers couldn't offset (probably at a reasonable costing) but aftermarket balancer delete kits are everywhere. Have yet to hear about any engines blowing up because of the balancer delete kit. Friend of mine had his Airtrek Turbo rebuilt, balanced and blueprinted. Removed the balancer and that was nearly 6 years ago, his Airtrek is still running fine. Basically I think it's about tolerance and how much is acceptable depending on what the application is. A stock engine or even a modded engine will not reach that level of sensitivity.

You deal with large manufacturing machines and I don't blame you for wanting to follow the same concept as those machines. For you any failure from these machines = money loss which is never acceptable in any organisation. So every meticulous detail you will consider - including harmonic dampening. Our street cars don't need this luxury and I honestly doubt a loose bolt will fly out and kill anyone anytime soon just because of supposed 'lack-of-R&D'. Malaysia is similar to China, if there is a product that's doing well, it'll be copied and rebranded. Does it mean there's no R&D? Not necessarily. The original product might have already done it and the copies are just leeching off the original idea since patents in M'sia are pretty much pointless.

I've been using a Myth pulley for close to 5 years now on my car. I don't own a workshop, I don't own a car parts shop, I am not a mechanic, I am not an engineer, I am only just an enthusiast. Whats more mine is a modified pulley which allows me to advance my ignition timing without touching the crank sensor (I'm using a VDO setup).
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China only coppy stuff by request. The evil is the man whom request and order.
In china market race application, they support Full Original stuff...

QUOTE(empire23 @ Feb 18 2012, 11:43 PM)
I think his argument is that if these aren't reliable, why do big names make them. The reality is that big names will just as easily skimp on the risk if they feel that there's enough money to be made. If companies can put melamine into baby formulas, well, you get where I'm going lol. After all, caveat emptor  biggrin.gif

Always assume worst case scenario, that way you'll always be ahead of things. For your friend's Airtrek, I can bring up a Evo 9 that had a cam pulley failure that resulted in total valve loss, but of course that was a bred monster of 500 HP. Even mine runs 380 HP with RON98 which is way outta spec. This is an even bigger issue with blocks where the bore versus stroke isn't square, where the effects of harmonics stack up with that of the velocity of the pistons. As a process eng once told me, that piss you take into the sea may turn into that tsunami that wrecks some dude's house.

My assumption is that if you're going to get an LCP to gain more power, you're not only increasing the stress on the engine by introducing more power, but you're taking away something that decreases stress. In high performance scenarios, the usual is to toughen up the crank pulley while lightening the cam pulleys, so in a way it goes against the way I figured things should be done, hence the bias.

Probably just me being anal lah. I mean my car has lab cal-ed torque wrench and a set of torque drivers to fit everything up. It just bothers me because I feel that there are many places to get more evident and effective power out  smile.gif
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RON98..? Please show me how you justify your RON98...? Unless you show me the container that states RON98. Then it's fine.... I think the best best person to ask is Drex Chan instead of you due to his educational background...

Pee and tsunami... Haha... I'm still convinced that u're a funny guy...

LCP does not gain more power... It only reduce the inertia for the engine to accelerate better for response. Please remember... If u're going for a true beast under the hood... Then, we should be talking about fluidmpr... It's one thing u should never forget. Not your OEM. I had my OEM Crank Pulley misaligned due to rubber gave way... I'm not the only case... I also have friends disintegrating the OEM crank pulley.

Calibrated torque wrench for engine assembly... Correct for the head assembly and partial correct for the short block assembly.
Why do you need plastic gauge when u can fully trust your TW.

Of course there are much more area u can extract power. It's the matter of cost...


Ok, I still think you should be replacing Rowan A. cause u're truly a funny guy.
speed2horizon
post Feb 19 2012, 08:38 PM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Feb 19 2012, 07:37 PM)
1) If it states it in the box, then it should be stated outside the box right? Marketing I feel should be honest. Or at least it proves my position of "buyer beware"

2) Generally the Evolution X cold air intake

3) The idea is, does it break and crumple according to standards set out?

4) If I sold a dangerous product and put a disclaimer there, it still makes me liable for damage. That is the law.

RON98? Container? Me car actually needs RON98 to run. Don't ask me why, the Japanese told me to do it.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Be it fluidampr, RossTuffbond or ATI, I think the idea is the same. The OEM can take a strong beating before it needs an upgrade and they put it there at stock for a reason lah. Of course this is subject to design, for example the pulleys on an Evo are nylon, while those on a Hyundai are alu, the latter definitely lasts longer.

Logically you'd gain a little bit more power in addition to response lah due to less weight, but I wouldn't believe it is much wink.gif

Erryone has their side of the argument, well no point in making it hectic mate. We're all just stating our 2 cents, no point getting hyped up, just enjoy yer drive. I'm in a good mood after a run up and down The Panorama in Tallai. God, that was awesomest drive ever.
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Which also written in their website.

QUOTE(sinister_sid @ Feb 19 2012, 07:46 PM)
1) do you think consumer are that stupid or the word "LEGAL ACTION" does not exist ?? u think those big company rather risk their name for a small profit like this ? u think people around the world are like malaysia's JASMA ???
2)cam pulley failure ? wooooo perhaps HKS = HONG KONG SPORT FROM CHINA that been mistaken for HKS japan ? , imitation in malaysia no need me to write out load here la , every1 knows or perhaps the mechanic/tuner farked up ? 

3)there are a saying , once u start to bump up the horses from ur engine or changing stuff that u deemed better , u already increase the risk , if u can bump the power the way u did do you think those  engineer that do r&d at the factory dint figure it out ? why doesnt they do it ? u bump ur evo X to 380 horses easily like u claim then why Mitsubishi doesn't made the evo 380 horses from the factory ?  yes u can say cost , enviromental but doesnt u realise 1 major point ? RELIABILITY , DUHHHHHH 

4) WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH lab cal-ed torque whench wor ,
i wait the world greatest invention to announce the torque whench of ur to be the greatest idea/gadget to human kind
then those people that massed produce plastic gauge and feeler gauge can shut down thier factory go home eat maggi liaw 

lol u really a joke  thumbup.gif
u make me laugh like a idiot  rclxms.gif
WAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAK  doh.gif  rclxm9.gif
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He meant lab calibrated torque wrench...


QUOTE(empire23 @ Feb 19 2012, 07:58 PM)
1. Now do you seriously believe that companies don't take risk for money? biggrin.gif . There are first version big brake kits out there from big names that screw so badly with the ABS systems the cars are undrivable. During my younger days, I used to drive a P38 Rangy, man that shit BECM and security system was bugged to hell, using your logic, would Range Rover build a shit car and done more testing?

2. I don't live in Malaysia. And I base it on trust that a man who spends a crapload of his money on cars would try very hard to make sure what he got was genuine. Maybe it was the mechanic's fault, maybe it was fake, but when a lot of people say the same thing. Well, err on the side of caution.

3. Mitsubishi in the UK makes the FQ400, 400 horsies. From the factory. laugh.gif. Aslo available in the FQ-300 and FQ-360 flavours. Also from the factory. I'm keen to hear your argument in regards to this biggrin.gif

4. I'm not sure how you can equate a torque wrench to a feeler gauge, they measure different things.
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1)obviously big companies will take risk for profit. But there's always a balance between profit and reputation. The risk are majorly on the production vs demand.

2) agreed. Fake stuff has bad QCs...

3) Fq series. Let's check who is the company that provides the warranty. MMC or ralliart??? They are different division.
4) does the torque of te main studs affect the clearance??? Hahaha.... So, do you torque the bottom according to the torque or the clearance... Get ur hands on my friend. Then u'll know why I say that...

So, have u been pumping RON98??? Where??? Thanks for your information. Cuz we don't get it in Malaysia. I detuned my aftermarket ECUs to take so called RON95.
speed2horizon
post Feb 19 2012, 10:26 PM

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QUOTE(empire23 @ Feb 19 2012, 08:47 PM)
My manager always go through the same process when it comes to cost savings.

1) Is it going to affect things by a detectable amount?
2) If shit happens is it going to be bad?
3) If it does turn out bad can the finger be pointed solely at us?

If no to all 3, go right ahead lol.

Over here the FQ or Ralliart series retains the MMC factory warranty. 5 years for the car, 10 years for Powertrain.  smile.gif

My dealership (Zupps) tells me that I can head towards Ralliart power levels and will not void my warranty and they've confirmed it with MMC Australia. Plus I have a government guaranteed warranty which overrides all their T&Cs

To remove the bottom without an engine crane or a car lift for an Evo is close to impossible due to clearance, you can do the heads, but that is the extent of what I can do at home. I don't do the bottoms, only the tops and what I can access. Although if you asked me if I torqued industrial heavy machines like 3 phase oil cooled units, compressors and so forth, I'd say that is part of what I do.

Read the location under the member thing. I don't live in M'sia. We get 98 at every pump. We used to get 100 Octane at Shell, now no more tho sad.gif
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Ooo... Sorry for not having time to read through your profile...
I knew Vpower from australia is RON100. Not sure if they're still available.. But will soon to find out during commissioning trip in Aussie in short future...
However, As what I've claimed earlier... Torque wrench, correct for the head... But partial correct for bottom.
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