It won't lower your top speed, but remember as you go up in the revs and power, the lighter crank pulleys might not stand up to punishing use and if they do give way, well, your engine is screwed.
Crank pulley, Stock VS lighten.
Crank pulley, Stock VS lighten.
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Jan 21 2012, 12:12 AM
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#1
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
It won't lower your top speed, but remember as you go up in the revs and power, the lighter crank pulleys might not stand up to punishing use and if they do give way, well, your engine is screwed.
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Jan 24 2012, 10:12 PM
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#2
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(Peekab0o @ Jan 22 2012, 11:45 PM) Depends on what engine ... Not all engine use LCP well boom ur whole engine ... known many friends that use LCP dam many years and still strong running healthy dont just read reviews n judge LCP are not good . Dont judge a book by its cover yea ? There's a reason they're heavy, it's because they act as dampeners so the engine doesn't rattle all the front bits to death. The lack of weight contributes to bearing wear and attached component wear.Without the weight or the harmonic balancing of a good crank pulley, the car rattles itself to an early grave. That's why people who really really want the most power out of their cars go for an ATI performance or Ross Tuffbond crank pulley, note that these are even more heavily built than standard. It's the same for lightened cam pulleys, for what little you gain, the fact the advance and retard settings are just held together by 5 shithouse screws without loctite in some cases is just a recipe for a blown head. Best is stock sometimes |
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Jan 25 2012, 11:55 AM
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#3
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Jan 25 2012, 02:50 AM) Dude, ive seen aftermarket "pro street" clutch covers which were supplied with allen screws..to quote you, 5 shithouse allen screws. Now thats gonna keep it all together eh? Not all aftermarket is gewd that's for sure. Not everything lighter is better. Good engineering isn't common.Well if someone buys something liddat, the least that can be done is 2 titik aerospace grade loctite. QUOTE(Peekab0o @ Jan 25 2012, 09:27 AM) Orh >.< i been using lcp for 2 yeard and my car has been half my track and daily drive car . Lcp has boomed my engine and it became Optimus Prime . Basicaly hks , m7 , Trd , works , arospeed , redline , mythelogy all can close liaw lor if its so bad ... And in world of performance modding without buying try and test it out trial n error u wont know which is best . U hoping people will share thier setup with u ? Lawl . Shoot me all u wan but.. remember that LCP are still I've got a Ross rebuilt dampener in on my RB25DET running 13 PSI of boost. No problems with aircon mate, still cold. used worldwide by famous tuners and yah that 2 famous brands mentioned above heavier LCP i wanna see u use that in your car when air con is on . Track car an afford to use it cause they dont even have air con . If they made one for my 4B11T, I'd get it. Trial and error is fine, but like Tesla's theory versus Edison's trial by error, I'm siding Tesla You may not have heard of other brands like Quaife, Pfitzner, BorgWarner, PAR, DBA, Alcon and so on, but they make good stuff. You don't need to be famous to make decent parts and doesn't mean if you're famous, you do. |
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Jan 26 2012, 06:46 AM
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#4
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(OC4/3 @ Jan 26 2012, 04:18 AM) I have heard of most of those brand except PAR PAR is Precision Automated Robotics, an Aussie company that makes MTs in Melaka. Some more uncommon brand:Buschur Racing,Bulls Eye Power,OS Giken,ATS,Full Race OS Giken makes really hard clutches, a workmate of mine runs an R30 with an RB25DE with an OS Giken twin plater. Those buggers are on-off. ATS has a lot of nice kit but Full Race and their manifolds....... Either way, in regards to the LCP, really, what is the point unless you want to dampen something? If you can keep the dampening and balancing at the same level while losing weight, fine, good, but the reality is most of the time, you don't. Behind the crankshaft you have the rotational mass that is the flywheel, the clutch and the whole damned car. In front, you have the aircon, alternator and so on. A reduction of a 2kg tops in just isn't going to bring out the beast in your damned car. For the amount of money spent on the LCP, I can buy myself KFC and some minyak, go for a hard drive and set my tune correctly and still get more power. Malaysians are just in love with anything shinny when it comes to modding. |
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Jan 26 2012, 06:20 PM
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#5
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Jan 26 2012, 10:46 AM) LMAO.. behind the car is a booth full of shit and a 200kg subwoofer. People don't want to believe that gaining power isn't easy. There ain't no magic pill for it. Even for example the air intake. You upgrade the air intake and for a while you get extra power, because more airflow means the system runs leaner and timing can advance to suit. But once the ECU figures out what you've done, 7 out of 10 times the bugger will downtune the car to rich, although the car will still be more responsive on the throttle because of flow velocity, all because ECUs are dicks. Another thing I dont get is this : Wheel (before) Power 96 hp (72kw) @5868 rpm Torque 130 Nm @ 4173 rpm Wheel (after) Power 99hp (74kw) @6141 rpm Torque 129Nm @ 4378 rpm Well, shouldnt your HP be higher (obviously) at a higher rpm? My car makes more HP at a higher rpms without an LCP In fact right up to 4500rpm, your stock crank pulley is doing a better job than a lightened dampened billetted forged titanium aluminium hybrid alloy crank pulley with a piece of rubber. (LDBFTAHACP + PR) » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « Also some of these pulleys aren't the same size as stock most of the time. Meaning they underrun the components connected to the belt. That's shite. QUOTE(sinister_sid @ Jan 26 2012, 04:06 PM) HKS japan sold LCP few years back even before malaysian know about it . so how a big company would risk ? as long the pulley is balance in some way how it could wreck ur crank ? wreak crank or crank oil seal my cause by improper instalation oil seal . when the oil seal is improper install it my cause the valve seal to worn out or the inner retaining wire in the oil seal may came off and scratch the crank hence crank damage and unrepairable oil leak . I put poop in a box and got General Electric to put their name on it, does it make it any good? For example, among Evo X owners here, the HKS Hipermax is known as crap and so is the shit made by TEIN. They're both big names but most would go for the cheaper and better Eibach Federn kit or having the dosh, the Ohlins DFV. Brembo makes good brakes, but I'm trading them in for Alcon goodness. so if using lcp could ruined ur engine so how about using lighten flywheel ? since it could effect the same way like the pulley ? some time the info u found on web aka information highway can be olso MISINFORMATION HIGHWAY . Just because it is balanced doesn't mean it wont kill it. No balancing act is perfect. So there is always some vibration, now vibration is once thing, but as all engineers know when vibration hits the right note you have resonance, which is a form of harmonic that rattles bits to shitsville. That's why you also call the main crank pulley a "Harmonic dampener" for a reason. Issues won't show up right away, but increase wear and tear. So why isn't the lightened flywheel in the same league as the LCP? Because the LCP itself must get rid of harmonics, the lightened flywheel has the springs located in the hub of the clutch to absorb any harmonics |
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Jan 26 2012, 10:09 PM
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#6
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(the_catacombs @ Jan 26 2012, 09:57 PM) err... myth lcp is a 1 piece unit with rubber belt slip in the groove... if u got see properly laa... if u say the rubber will twist, means the whole pulley can twist???.... flywheel has springs??... cannot brain bro... got picture??... sorry for my noobness... QUOTE the lightened flywheel has the springs located in the hub of the clutch ![]() |
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Jan 26 2012, 10:57 PM
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#7
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(sinister_sid @ Jan 26 2012, 10:43 PM) now i get it . Nope lol. Engineer for oil and gas electrical, work with motors and generators of the biggest sizes. Projects include the Condamine power station with Siemens SGT series turbines and Allen Bradley VSD control system.either u are the chief mechanic at pagini factory or team renault f1 chief development and u never seen local paliah scene that most were homemade brew recipe . sorry to degrading you I've built a lot of pariah industrial rigs where I work, but no play play one, all must calculate banyak banyak especially when it comes to moving stuff lah. Deswai I no likely LCP, given bad dampening of lighter material, the enjin will goncang goncang. That's no good. This post has been edited by empire23: Jan 26 2012, 10:59 PM |
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Jan 27 2012, 05:08 AM
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#8
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(Kirie @ Jan 26 2012, 11:45 PM) I have some basics in mechanical but most of it is on the job training and customers shouting at me they want XXXX MTBF and they want numbarrrssss........you learn veli fast when your ass is on the lineQUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Jan 27 2012, 03:12 AM) Dampening the crank pulley is definitely a good thing, especially to absorb vibration, but in essence like what empire said in most of his posts, a lightened crank pulley at most shaves off 2kgs tops on a singular part which doesnt really make a significant difference on a mild or road spec car. dont get me wrong, 2kgs on a track car makes a shit load of diff, but those engines are balanced, blueprinted and stripped down after the race. Your crank and engine internals are not expected to last 100 000km as a regular street car is usually overhauled. On a real race car, sure the 2kg lost with a lightened fly wheel, plus Delrin Acetal tensioners, carbon fiber covers, sodium filled shaved valves, ultra light timing chains, crashbox straight cut SMGs and so on all make a difference. But remember, most of our cars aren't race cars and I wouldn't want the reliability of one. I still want to go out and buy susu, go Giant, ayam goreng McDs, go 7-11 at Ampang Jaya beli berger and so forth. Its attached via a belt, even your crank has torsion stresses. There is a significant difference between a mechanic and an engine builder. Also an engineer. I remember a mechanic guy in LYN said he came up with a brilliant design to fit an intercooler to the intake of NA cars.. In fact he was selling the kit and installation service to other car owners. The purpose? to cool ambient air to ambient temperature The central hub of a clutch is usually replaced with the clutch. Usually comes in a kit. But you are right, they take a kicking and sometimes under the right circumstances and enough stupidity, they will crack |
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Jan 27 2012, 12:08 PM
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#9
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(ryan_hustler @ Jan 27 2012, 11:45 AM) that flywheel is rather interesting..where can I get more information on it? Also is there any particular name for it? It's just a removable hub for a cluch. Normally they aren't removable or even splined for that matter, but the picture is from a Nismo SuperCoppermix which I wanted to order for the 34. Most everyday clutches will have a unsplined hub with springs. ![]() Now compare it with Exedy's top of the line carbon clutch for race use only. ![]() Look ma, no springs |
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Jan 29 2012, 03:48 AM
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#10
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(the_catacombs @ Jan 28 2012, 11:07 PM) ur flywheel so high tech miaa... what drivetrain u using???.... That's a Nissan SuperCoppermix for the R34 la. ok.. so did u send ur engine for full balancing and blue print??.. i'm sure as an engineer u cannot tolerate any defects due to large manufacturing tolerance right??.... Me drivetrain, DSG style TC-SST, with fully reworkable torque limit maps accessed via a CobbTuning AccessPort. Large manufacturing tolerances? I think I paid so much money for the Evo X precisely for the reason that they've already reduced the tolerances at the factory for me But the reality is that you can accept failure in tolerance somewhere, but not others. A road car should prize reliability and drivability above all. One could remove the aircon from their car and get a quite a few extra horsies, but I rather just get a car with more grunt than lose the aircon. |
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Feb 18 2012, 02:23 PM
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#11
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(sinister_sid @ Feb 18 2012, 05:50 AM) wah !! speed2horison mali liaw . lolz Why does Garrett market a bolt on kit for the Evo X which exceeds the power handling capacity of the clutch at stock and markets it as a stock replacement?@ryan hustler u still havent answer my question , i only see alot of yapping and barking , and my older question i ask earlier why hks , cusco , knightsport , gfb , skunk 2 racing , aem , sells lcp ? no 1 answer me , instead i got a flywheels with spring , why does this big shot aftermarket made aftermarket lcp if its a risk ? Why do all the major for their first iterations of the X CAI all have issues with long term ECU compensation? Why does Turbosmart market a replacement BOV that when vents to atmosphere ruins the AFR calculations of the ECU and can wreck the engine? Why does Seibon market a carbon fiber hood that increases the likelihood of pedestrian death in the event of crash? It is up to the end user to figure out a risk versus reward thing. Just that in the case of an LCP which concentrates only on weight, the reward is outweighed by the risk, because the reward is so little for the average driver. Simple as that and that has always been my personal argument. Just because they're all famous brands, doesn't mean they don't play with risk. A lot of SAU members do not recommend the installation of the HKS lightened cam pulleys on the RB25/26 due to run out, so they just don't buy it. But but but it is from HKS, sure good one! Even the likes of Cosworth can make crap sometimes for the sake of money |
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Feb 18 2012, 11:43 PM
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#12
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(izso @ Feb 18 2012, 11:00 PM) I don't think you understand Sid's argument. The point was "these companies don't have proper R&D" and the brands he quoted are all big names whom are well known to have their own R&D done on products they sell. I think his argument is that if these aren't reliable, why do big names make them. The reality is that big names will just as easily skimp on the risk if they feel that there's enough money to be made. If companies can put melamine into baby formulas, well, you get where I'm going lol. After all, caveat emptor Anyway, regarding the discussion on the LCP and harmonic dampening - this is subjective. Race engines are stressed very much more than standard engines like yours and mine and hence their tolerance is very very small, which is why harmonic vibrations will affect a race engine. Stock Evo engines come with engine balancers to counter those harmonic vibrations that the engineers couldn't offset (probably at a reasonable costing) but aftermarket balancer delete kits are everywhere. Have yet to hear about any engines blowing up because of the balancer delete kit. Friend of mine had his Airtrek Turbo rebuilt, balanced and blueprinted. Removed the balancer and that was nearly 6 years ago, his Airtrek is still running fine. Basically I think it's about tolerance and how much is acceptable depending on what the application is. A stock engine or even a modded engine will not reach that level of sensitivity. You deal with large manufacturing machines and I don't blame you for wanting to follow the same concept as those machines. For you any failure from these machines = money loss which is never acceptable in any organisation. So every meticulous detail you will consider - including harmonic dampening. Our street cars don't need this luxury and I honestly doubt a loose bolt will fly out and kill anyone anytime soon just because of supposed 'lack-of-R&D'. Malaysia is similar to China, if there is a product that's doing well, it'll be copied and rebranded. Does it mean there's no R&D? Not necessarily. The original product might have already done it and the copies are just leeching off the original idea since patents in M'sia are pretty much pointless. I've been using a Myth pulley for close to 5 years now on my car. I don't own a workshop, I don't own a car parts shop, I am not a mechanic, I am not an engineer, I am only just an enthusiast. Whats more mine is a modified pulley which allows me to advance my ignition timing without touching the crank sensor (I'm using a VDO setup). Always assume worst case scenario, that way you'll always be ahead of things. For your friend's Airtrek, I can bring up a Evo 9 that had a cam pulley failure that resulted in total valve loss, but of course that was a bred monster of 500 HP. Even mine runs 380 HP with RON98 which is way outta spec. This is an even bigger issue with blocks where the bore versus stroke isn't square, where the effects of harmonics stack up with that of the velocity of the pistons. As a process eng once told me, that piss you take into the sea may turn into that tsunami that wrecks some dude's house. My assumption is that if you're going to get an LCP to gain more power, you're not only increasing the stress on the engine by introducing more power, but you're taking away something that decreases stress. In high performance scenarios, the usual is to toughen up the crank pulley while lightening the cam pulleys, so in a way it goes against the way I figured things should be done, hence the bias. Probably just me being anal lah. I mean my car has lab cal-ed torque wrench and a set of torque drivers to fit everything up. It just bothers me because I feel that there are many places to get more evident and effective power out |
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Feb 19 2012, 12:03 AM
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#13
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
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Feb 19 2012, 02:51 PM
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#14
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
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Feb 19 2012, 07:37 PM
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#15
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(speed2horizon @ Feb 19 2012, 07:15 PM) Haha... Sounds funny la you... 1) If it states it in the box, then it should be stated outside the box right? Marketing I feel should be honest. Or at least it proves my position of "buyer beware"1) Garrett stated something in the box... Please read the box and manual properly... Then start talking. 2) X CAI. I don't get what u meant. 3) A proper CF hood can break, but not disintegrate. Read your fiber and matrix. 4) The HKS camgear is the only camgear that will bit snap your belt due to sharp edges and material hardness. Also read the HKS manual properly on the maintenance and lifetime. Also the disclaimer. RON98..? Please show me how you justify your RON98...? Unless you show me the container that states RON98. Then it's fine.... I think the best best person to ask is Drex Chan instead of you due to his educational background... Pee and tsunami... Haha... I'm still convinced that u're a funny guy... LCP does not gain more power... It only reduce the inertia for the engine to accelerate better for response. Please remember... If u're going for a true beast under the hood... Then, we should be talking about fluidmpr... It's one thing u should never forget. Not your OEM. I had my OEM Crank Pulley misaligned due to rubber gave way... I'm not the only case... I also have friends disintegrating the OEM crank pulley. Calibrated torque wrench for engine assembly... Correct for the head assembly and partial correct for the short block assembly. Why do you need plastic gauge when u can fully trust your TW. Of course there are much more area u can extract power. It's the matter of cost... Ok, I still think you should be replacing Rowan A. cause u're truly a funny guy. 2) Generally the Evolution X cold air intake 3) The idea is, does it break and crumple according to standards set out? 4) If I sold a dangerous product and put a disclaimer there, it still makes me liable for damage. That is the law. RON98? Container? Me car actually needs RON98 to run. Don't ask me why, the Japanese told me to do it. » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... « Be it fluidampr, RossTuffbond or ATI, I think the idea is the same. The OEM can take a strong beating before it needs an upgrade and they put it there at stock for a reason lah. Of course this is subject to design, for example the pulleys on an Evo are nylon, while those on a Hyundai are alu, the latter definitely lasts longer. Logically you'd gain a little bit more power in addition to response lah due to less weight, but I wouldn't believe it is much Erryone has their side of the argument, well no point in making it hectic mate. We're all just stating our 2 cents, no point getting hyped up, just enjoy yer drive. I'm in a good mood after a run up and down The Panorama in Tallai. God, that was awesomest drive ever. This post has been edited by empire23: Feb 19 2012, 07:48 PM |
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Feb 19 2012, 07:58 PM
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(sinister_sid @ Feb 19 2012, 07:46 PM) 1) do you think consumer are that stupid or the word "LEGAL ACTION" does not exist ?? u think those big company rather risk their name for a small profit like this ? u think people around the world are like malaysia's JASMA ??? 1. Now do you seriously believe that companies don't take risk for money? 2)cam pulley failure ? wooooo perhaps HKS = HONG KONG SPORT FROM CHINA that been mistaken for HKS japan ? , imitation in malaysia no need me to write out load here la , every1 knows or perhaps the mechanic/tuner farked up ? 3)there are a saying , once u start to bump up the horses from ur engine or changing stuff that u deemed better , u already increase the risk , if u can bump the power the way u did do you think those engineer that do r&d at the factory dint figure it out ? why doesnt they do it ? u bump ur evo X to 380 horses easily like u claim then why Mitsubishi doesn't made the evo 380 horses from the factory ? yes u can say cost , enviromental but doesnt u realise 1 major point ? RELIABILITY , DUHHHHHH 4) WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH lab cal-ed torque whench wor , i wait the world greatest invention to announce the torque whench of ur to be the greatest idea/gadget to human kind then those people that massed produce plastic gauge and feeler gauge can shut down thier factory go home eat maggi liaw lol u really a joke u make me laugh like a idiot WAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAK 2. I don't live in Malaysia. And I base it on trust that a man who spends a crapload of his money on cars would try very hard to make sure what he got was genuine. Maybe it was the mechanic's fault, maybe it was fake, but when a lot of people say the same thing. Well, err on the side of caution. 3. Mitsubishi in the UK makes the FQ400, 400 horsies. From the factory. 4. I'm not sure how you can equate a torque wrench to a feeler gauge, they measure different things. |
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Feb 19 2012, 08:23 PM
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#17
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(sinister_sid @ Feb 19 2012, 08:12 PM) 1)if for those small company yes , but what is big company ? , those company establish their brand for more than 30 just to ruin thier reputation ? as for ur range rover its like proton , what to argue , car manufacturer does make mistake , one year or two years back ? toyota massive recall ? toyota wor , big brand wor ? mitsu back in 90's ? rusty roof , doddy auto gb ? lancia back in 80's rust issue , chevy in 50's unreilable auto gb ????? 1) Like I said, there have been crap products before. I still remember that some batches of Garret's "Disco Potato" broke under high boost after what people said were "design revisions for cost", sending chunks into the poor block. Garrett is owned by Honeywell and they're a big company right?2) i see u agree with me , thank you 3)can you remind me the extra money have to top up for it ? hmmmmmmmmm ? with the money u add for it i can say many tuner outside can proudly get more power from it but it sell wells and people buys it because it the money u paid for the extra enginnering , so whats ur arguement ? 4) may i ? u dint wrote that ? let me highlight 1 more time yah maybe its me that is not very well educated but i understand from that sentence is that as u assemble ur engine bottoms up using ur lab cab torque wrench I mean it is all calculated risk. Companies will always cost cut, I mean, if nobody notices and nothing happens, a cost saving is always welcome. 3) Your argument was on the basis of reliability. Those blocks are stock as far as I know. With enhancements to the intake and exhaust. The Team Mitsubishi Ralliart version here in Australia with 360 ponies only comes with a different exhaust, everything else is stock. Going back to your argument in point one, would Mitsubishi risk their reputation by putting out a beast that would blow up? 4) I assemble everything with that wrench haha. From fitting wheels, banjo bolts for the brakes, caliper bolts, the head, cam bolts and so on to service manual spec. My company bagi as my personal tool set, might as well use. I like my things to book spec unless conditions call for different values. |
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Feb 19 2012, 08:47 PM
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9,417 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Bladin Point, Northern Territory |
QUOTE(speed2horizon @ Feb 19 2012, 08:38 PM) Which also written in their website. My manager always go through the same process when it comes to cost savings.1)obviously big companies will take risk for profit. But there's always a balance between profit and reputation. The risk are majorly on the production vs demand. 2) agreed. Fake stuff has bad QCs... 3) Fq series. Let's check who is the company that provides the warranty. MMC or ralliart??? They are different division. 4) does the torque of te main studs affect the clearance??? Hahaha.... So, do you torque the bottom according to the torque or the clearance... Get ur hands on my friend. Then u'll know why I say that... So, have u been pumping RON98??? Where??? Thanks for your information. Cuz we don't get it in Malaysia. I detuned my aftermarket ECUs to take so called RON95. 1) Is it going to affect things by a detectable amount? 2) If shit happens is it going to be bad? 3) If it does turn out bad can the finger be pointed solely at us? If no to all 3, go right ahead lol. Over here the FQ or Ralliart series retains the MMC factory warranty. 5 years for the car, 10 years for Powertrain. My dealership (Zupps) tells me that I can head towards Ralliart power levels and will not void my warranty and they've confirmed it with MMC Australia. Plus I have a government guaranteed warranty which overrides all their T&Cs To remove the bottom without an engine crane or a car lift for an Evo is close to impossible due to clearance, you can do the heads, but that is the extent of what I can do at home. I don't do the bottoms, only the tops and what I can access. Although if you asked me if I torqued industrial heavy machines like 3 phase oil cooled units, compressors and so forth, I'd say that is part of what I do. Read the location under the member thing. I don't live in M'sia. We get 98 at every pump. We used to get 100 Octane at Shell, now no more tho This post has been edited by empire23: Feb 19 2012, 08:49 PM |
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