The life of an atheist, leftist, sceptic is a hard one in Malaysia. I've met so many believers, people who are religious, people who believe in the power of crystals, invisible creatures, MLM schemes :s, you name it, we have them in Malaysia.

I'm just tired of not meeting like minded people(as you've probably guessed base don the title of this post). I'm also tired of expressing my views just in the form of forum posts. How many of you non believers have announced your rejection of faith to those close to you? Or even know other like yourself outside of these forums(and I know there are quite many of you here).

I'm throwing this out there for all of you. What do you think of having an actual group that has meet ups etc? Like actual meet ups not online forum/chat room meet ups :s We cant just be bedroom atheists or sceptics( I don't want to narrow the group into an atheist group). Something concrete has to be done to have a presence.

Ideas, suggestion, you think it's not practical?

i suggest a philosophy class/debate/discussion at a a higher level. it will be fun.

I was thinking of something more casual. Not so formal. Because you know how Malaysians are. If it was a debate etc, people would keep quiet. There has to be someone to lead the debate. I would rather not have people leading the way but a place where anyone can feel they are equal with the rest and have no inhibitions to speak up. Something more akin to Skeptics In The Pub etc.

Your right. A lof of people here are religious. Sometime when they talk about it. I just played along with them. Put up some arguments but taking care not to offend anyone.

I can't say I don't truly believe there isn't a god. But I try to look at things in a scientific way or think logically about something.

And not just based something to be of supernatural phenomena.

I think majority of the people here are more interested in materialistic things over the pursue of knowledge. People here don't really find science interesting.

Being skeptical is a good thing. Cause it leaves room for other possibilities. There's room for questioning.

All u here just seek for SOME PPL WHO HAVE A MIND LIKE U.

no doubt,mostly ppl just like wat u talk, even some r drive BM or Audi, but their tot & mind r shit. BUt unfortunely, this kind of CULTURE already wrote deep in our mind since we r child. (parents manipulated)

Today, ppl only care u rich or not. I saw many ppl who no motivate (inovative) at all. But, THEY put u in the group of this ppl. THEY Knew u can handle the thing well (for me, THEY want me just do the job for those sucker).

No ppl like to waste their time in debate (for serious issue). They rather enjoy debated in kacang puteh issues. Beside that,

Some ppl acting make me laugh even he/she already a kids parents.
But, we cannot force them to behave like us.

Thank for them to make me my life colorful. \(^ o ^)/

This post has been edited by peace230: Dec 31 2011, 12:25 PM

I suggest you head over to RWI and look up the many Science vs God threads. I don't know if they are leftist and sceptic, but definitely got lots of atheists.

The majority of the world are religious or don't know what to believe, I would not totally dismiss religion to prevent from strayed. When constitutional law don't work, religious taboo can.

I have no religion but I have had bizarre encounter that keep me neutral, not between science & religion but the unknown. We can choose no to believe in any religion but we cannot stop wondering what is it if not religion.

Yes I am aware of Believer vs Non Believers in RWI. I don't think I can post a suggestion thread on RWI about a sceptics meet up though. But I'll think of something thanks.


Okay, I created this thread in the hopes of getting people who might be interested in such a gathering of sceptics. Not a what is your viewpoint thread. Although I respect your position on this, I have to disagree with it. I wont get into a religious debate in this thread but this will be my only input into the matter.

Religious taboos cannot and is not a good measurement of good moral rules/ethics. It is stone age. And it is written with the believer in mind. The brain washed. Hence biased. I'll leave this at that.

Picking god as an answer to a mystery is an easy way out. And yes, I can live without religion or god quite happily.

Meet up somewhere for discussion, preferably around food (round tables and drinks, check). Pretty sure other subforums have occasional meet-ups as well.

That said, I'm interested. Hope it comes around

Thank you... I'll try to rope in more people.

Share our version of creation story that exempted us from religion? When god is out, only fantasy and science is on the table, I have no friends who are completely non influenced by religion at some degree though they don't practice.

All my employers are religious and check if our date of birth affect their fung shui, so it is not easy declaring oneself as free thinker.

God is fantasy. Thank you very much. Then I'm pleased to meet your acquaintance(well in Cyberspace). I'm a godless creature. Irreligious to the hilt. And loving every moment of it.

And another thing... the term free thinker is incredibly insulting. Not to me of course, but to everyone else. It sets the impression that those that believe in God/Religion/Whatever Voodoo are not free thinkers... not free to think... can't think for themselves. And are caged by it. Slaves to religion. At least as a humanist, you should avoid using that term. I cringe every time I hear it. We are humans, we are free to think. No one owns us.

Whatever the term used is only words that represent the non believing kind, why need to bother what implication it has on the believer? Not believing is offensive enough to many devotees, that we are like strayed and unappreciative to the creator. I appreciate my parent for bringing me up but not the fact that they gave birth to me because I did not ask for it, similar to the creator / god.

I simply cannot submit to the idea that only god knows why we are created yet we are free to do anything, however I do agree that most people need a religion because they feel insecure if not. I think that all criminals are non believer too, everything is good and bad, I hate when people reply a question as yes and no.

Words are important to me. I'm a writer and I find it annoying when words are misused. Words should be respected and not used willy nilly.

My humble opinion.

Which ever the profession, we should learn to stood neutral. The job is only our way to make a living not a standard that can apply to everyone, so as the choice to believe or not in a religion, adopt it and become a member of the group and led to politic if not war. Now I know why you would like to meet people with the same ideology but non believers are not always serious and diverse compared to religion group.

My Favorite quote:

Men……probably the most mysterious species on our planet….
A mystery of unanswered questions…..


Who are we? Where do we come from?
Where are we going? How do we know. What we think we know?
Why do we believe anything at all?


Countless questions, In search of an answer……..
An answer that will give rise to a new question…..
And the next answer will give, rise to the next question and so on….


But, in the end, isn't it always the same question?
And always the same answer?

Gods or Godless actually is a kind of concept + logical + imaginative = ideas

Ideas + inovative + action = Civilization.

when the moment Mankind start to Think.
Why we alway ask "WHY". When "WHY" u ask for it, means countless question in your mind in search for the true. "WHY" we want know about the true? (maybe the religion can give it an logical & acceptable anwers for public during these era). Then.... HOW does the ideas come from the mind of that person. WHAT make him believed on it?......

& bcos of the power of "BELEIVED/ BELIEF", it lead mankind to civilization.

When we r out of the Jungle /stone cave, WHY we still want to look back? ex:

Where do WE come from, HOW does WE evolve, What make WE diference from other creature??

---

Added on January 6, 2012, 6:40 pmCuriosity perhaps.........

This post has been edited by peace230: Jan 6 2012, 06:40 PM

What makes you think cats do not wonder about the same things?

lol@how fast the thread derails. TS just wanted to test the response for a meet-up, tengok-tengok half the posts on personal views......

Malaysia is not really friendly to secularism. Religion is being abused as a political weapon instead of being treated as a personal choice like in Europe.

In the USA, there's people organising these kind of gatherings: http://lesswrong.com/

This post has been edited by engseng: Jan 8 2012, 02:33 PM

TS if u manage to get a meet up, can update me also lar

I'd like to be part of these meet-ups too~

But my two cents, if everyone is like-minded there would be no point in the discussion, unless of course someone decides to be the devils advocate. But truth be told, I prefer arguments as they lead to more questions and require more proof every time the discussion heats up. Without these there would be no discussion. They would be like weekly gathering at church, where someone tells everyone else their views and everyone says Amen. Kinda pointless if you ask me.

Nice idea actually. I am imagining a room full of skeptics right now.

I doubt sceptics would agree on everything. We have a common believe but never an all encompassing belief. It is no religion. There will be no preaching. Just honest discussions. Make new friends, hang out just have a good time with people you can talk about things. We all can find the group that disagrees with you, look all around us... This group is in sharing our common solidarity for causes that you and I care for.

Thanks for the interests. I need more people. Perhaps I'll set up an official presence, a name for a club. A presence online and have these regular meet ups.

That would be just awesome. Finally getting to meet the philosophers of Phd School would be a treat indeed.

I STRONGLY believe there is no god. Religion is a guild to control the herd of "sheeps".

I am a closet atheist, sadly. Is a no no to say it out loud to your friends... you know what you gonna get if you do so.

And I'm very much a leftism, no war but peace, a bit like Gandhi. I believe Venus Project is a solution for the future.

Anyone knows who first created religion? The Roman Empire from what I've read. Not sure tho.....

I'm not super uber pro in such subjects, maybe because I don't think too much about it, I tend to sit in the middle.... so pls spare me...

This post has been edited by Meis: Jan 17 2012, 05:48 PM

I think you're not looking back far enough.

As far back as the first human who looked up the sky and wondered what was up there. Of course it was used as a way of explaining a lot of things, such as natural disasters etc. The night sky can be quite a magical sight for those early humans that didn't know anything about astronomy.

But in terms of Civilizations, pretty sure it existed even way back with the Sumerians, Egyptians and Athenians. Pretty well documented, I believe everyone knows about all these civilizations. Rome really was a late comer.

It is commonly debated that the American civilizations were one of the earliest(at the moment that title goes to the Sumerians).

Although we chose no religion but an understanding for the reason why is where we stand, not just plain rejection without reason. My understanding of it came from Britannica Encyclopedia documentation that describe religion as a form of control before human civilization created politic and constitutional law, our existence can be either random or intentional but when people suffer, they generally ask why? So religion provide the answer and consolation.

If you have seen unjust and gained the understanding of scientific analytic manner of thinking, you tends to doubt and create your own answer than that of god's will. If parent did not force a child to practice before knowing what it is, the child is likely to follow without questioning, if one feel offended when challenged, it wasn't god's will but self esteem, the things that one believe is ultimate law of the universe.

There are more religious people than the not, they can claim that it is religion that keep the world in order, agree or not is not important as long as no genocide against the non believer.

No one disbelieve Venus Project except the zeitgeist movement, don't have to declare you believe in progress because no one will object openly even though they are destructive. Simply support a movement without a tangible solution is blind believing and it is not a place to house only the non believer, if that is the agenda, which country will fund it? Communist?

This post has been edited by 3dassets: Jan 19 2012, 02:12 PM

Shamanist here.

Not sure where I should stand in this topic. We are hated by most of the religions today (We hate them too) and are forgotten by most believers and non-believers alike.

We dont have a god, but we do believe in nature as our mother and we do worship elements that exist in the nature that made us what we are today.

So... call me anything you like and count me in if there is such a gathering. Just sounds fun.

cheers peeps.

Someone who believes in the Gaia theory. Interesting. I'm currently thinking of a name for the group, to set up an online presence.

its not that hard to find people lie this. almost everyone who swings, party and lies believes in no god. its just the awkward feeling you got for saying something taboo in the public

Right.... And we know for a fact that people who believe in a god don't swing, party or lie.

The Roman Empire @ Gentile created Catholic Church.

The funny thing is that Jesus is not a Catholic and there is no confession booth in Bible. The confession booth is fraud. That's why we see most Christians who had found the truth converted to Islam.

But you all need to have God. Being atheist is a bad bad thing to do. God knows best.

posting to indicate interest - although i'm not in the klang valley, so meeting with me would probably be hard

No worries. Just need supporters.

Can come and join us at UndiMsia chats every month at Pusat Rakyat Loya Burok http://www.google.com.my/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...6dGg_haEsrg2o1w

Your god sent you here or you just cannot resist thinking its a devil's cult? Since only your god know atheist is bad, how do you know? Didn't your religion educate you to mind your own business? Not like we gather here to destroy you. If god gave us the choice, then not our fault. Muslim says Allah is the only god, does that mean yours is fake? They also say only Muslim go to heaven the rest go to hell, you must be offended and that is why fighting a no ending war.

So, religion is a bad bad thing.

This post has been edited by 3dassets: Mar 7 2012, 03:26 PM

First and foremost, I suppose that you're trying to bring about an informal social event (e.g. “An Evening with Frags & Friends”) to promote fellowship and social-networking among skeptical inquirers, critical thinkers, and other like-minded people.
(1) My pastor friend used to hit, “How hard does your life compare to the temptation you have successfully resisted?” However, it's interesting to know that each new post of this thread gives you an opportunity to become a better writer in something you believe, is essential to pursuing the truth, no matter how hard it is.
(2) Your example of approach, however, seemed different. In what circumstances specifically do you really need to announce your rejection of faith in a casual atmosphere, in order to make convincingly strong arguments based on good reasons and scientific evidences? Becoming a Critical Thinker / Skeptical Inquirer often provides a consistent reminder of how frequently casual discussions may go unwarranted and lead us away from that goal of thinking critically.
(3) It seemed that your purpose is to allow group participants to have fun while promoting skepticism, science, and rationality. People might wonder, “What kind of concrete is that concrete?” Have you ever wondered, what is the real rewarding objective behind the meeting? Enhancing the skill of recognizing “Entice the tiger to leave its mountain lair” argument when you hear it in some replies, will not only help you to avoid being led off-topic, it will help you to become an effective reagent of righting that wrong.
(4) Perhaps, you can appeal to some good reasons in Keynote form to inspire participants to think like a philosopher, helping them become more accomplished critical thinkers and develop the analytical tools needed to make better personal decisions about important issues. You can also encourage people get a clearer picture of their strengths so they can make career moves that will put them to their best use. They will get in touch with their needs so that they can seek out environments and roles in which they’ll feel most happy. And they’ll come to better understand their weaknesses so they can try to prevent or avoid some pitfalls along the way.

— Tossing out a reasonable brick to get an enthusiastic jade.

I’m an atheist, but I’m not the kind of atheist you see every so often, cussing and not being reasonable.
Have there been any real known sightings of god? Nope, as long as anybody knows, there’s been sightings by people on drugs, being high, and stuff that’s not good for you.

My point is simple and clear, wars are never started because of atheists. Atheists dont fight amongst themselves and murder innocents because they disagree with each other. Atheists don’t have conflicting religious stories and beliefs. Atheists are not scared to admit they are wrong if scientifically proven where followers of God have unnatural trouble and conflict, almost like a trigger or a switch, to admit there are other possibilities out there.

The truth is… The time of religion is and has always been selfish and dark. Religions will continue to fight forever ruining the lives of those caught in its wake. This is but a small underlying reason why atheists consider themselves to be the so called “intellectual elite” and its true… just look around you with your own eyes…im Agnostic and i can see that Atheists are the smarter people here… even if they are a little obnoxious sometimes but aren’t we all…

…except Buddhism, Taoism, The Baha’i Faith, Hinduism and any other religion with non aggressive followers who don’t obnoxiously scream at people to read their followings…lol

Thank you.

Lesswrong's gatherings are not limited to the USA. You can organise a lesswrong gathering in Malaysia! I would be more than happy to attend.

Join Malaysian Atheists, Free-thinkers and Agnostics, MAFA (https://www.facebook.com/groups/22863906024/), an organisation which gathers skeptical Malaysians online, and IRL occasionally. It works like lesswrong.

This post has been edited by adalovelace: Mar 16 2012, 09:02 PM

What do atheists think of a religion without God?

more intelligent than religious people.

1. RELIGION – This was man made and so were the religious texts. Religion is important but not essential.

2. GOD – For the question ‘ Do you believe in God’ ? the answer must be “What is your definition of God” ?

???

Yes, I am an atheist.

I believe men created religion and men created God.

Why are there so many religions in this world? Some more with different teachings from one another. Whoever created the religion created it to suit their objectives and agenda.

For example, Buddha never preached any religion and he insisted his followers not to build idols of him but his followers still do that. Who founded Buddhism? His followers, not Buddha. Buddha preached on the way of life.

Same with Jesus, Jesus had never preached any religion called Christianity. Jesus preached on good moral values, to love and to forgive. Again, it is his disciples that found Christianity.

I was a Christian before and I admire both Jesus and Buddha for their preachings.

+999999%

Actually the gods created all of the religions including darwinism and they are all false

maltheism?

Yes they did, but it's not humans' agendas


I don't belong to any -ism, religions or any esoteric cults for that matter. The important things in this universe are hidden from us, in the same way that a child in kindergarten cannot comprehend what is being thought in College. We humans are clueless on the basic economic construct of simple supply and demand, and yet we claim to understand the complexities of the universe and how it works. Sure, whatever

Yes they are obnoxious as hell, without realizing they are as deluded as the religious people themselves

Another argument that will never ever stop. Right now I am constantly doing my duty as a Hindu though I have a Christian background

Sorry. You don't get away that easily. Some sort of -ism have probably been defined for every single believe, or lack thereof.

Didn't you just describe agnoticism?

I was going to tell one of my close friends that I'm agnostic. However, before that I asked her what she think about atheist/agnostic people. She told me that they are bad people and she will avoid them at all cost.

I personally don't blame her for having such thoughts, many religious people that I knew still think that non-religious people are generally bad influence.

Hey frags, I didn't notice this thread earlier. I'm the calltoreason.org / knights of the cardboard castle guy. My wife and I will join whatever group you cook up. Unfortunately, we're currently living in Seremban, but we'll be up for real life meet-ups if we happen to be in KL.

I think that asking people to meet up for no other reason than to discuss religion / philosophy etc. would be kind of silly. It would be better to organize the meeting around some kind of other activity, even if only as an icebreaker. I suggest boardgames (very social, especially when compared to videogames), some kind of movie club plus discussion afterwards (especially if someone can provide a suitable venue, likely someone's house) or some physical activity, a jungle hike, mountain climb etc.

---

Added on March 22, 2012, 10:45 pmHey, someone posted a link to lesswrong! 'Fess up, how many of you are fans of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality? If you've never read it and you are an atheist / rational thinker and love reading, you must read it immediately!

This post has been edited by wankongyew: Mar 22 2012, 10:45 PM

No problem. I'm just trying to get all sceptics gathered. Yes, might have to be some icebreaking deal. It's not a religion bashing thing... there have been known to be religious sceptics; even if sounds ridiculous.

My idea is to have a group similar to the Sceptics Guide To THe Universe... not the podcast... at least in the beginning.

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/

---

Added on April 14, 2012, 12:42 pmYes, that is quite common. Some people cant imagine how even we exist...by we I mean atheists or even agnostics. The best way is to convince others you're really an awesome fellow and then break it to them. It's a risk of course but you can't be living a lie forever. They might be bewildered but if you explain to them why you disbelieve, they might understand.

This post has been edited by frags: Apr 14 2012, 12:42 PM

Nice to know I aint the only atheist here!

*frantically raises hand*

Oh, oh oh... me..me! me!

Lemme start first for the ice breaking session.

Can I introduce you guys my GOD?? Can I? Can I?

I have absolute faith in Him, well, at least most of the time

He is none other than....

*drum rolls*

I don't believe there's God. But I kinda think that we are all bunch of experimental guinea pigs of aliens. Whatever that happens is determine by them. So what am I?

Agnostic is neither, something must created us or have influence on us because living being since dinosaur don't need intelligence to live a life, they just repeat life cycle. Why do human need intelligence and lead to doubt the creator is the question.

In a way, god believers accepted their fate and never doubt god's purpose, while some does not and will try to give an answer to the purpose of our existence, anything you can think of is not wrong because there is no right answer and has been thought of since long ago.

If you search deep enough, you will come across groups of people sharing the same thinking or believes, god / alien / creator is the same believe system, atheist believe in random creation but in denial of what created the Universe.

You think that's hard? At least you're atheist and have like-minded atheists to network with. It's harder being a rational, skeptical Muslim here. One is neither here nor there. Either I'm branded a theist (with that snarky, dismissive undertone of being intellectually disabled) or a murtad/hypocrite (with that snarky, dismissive undertone of being doomed for hellfire). Usually I network with atheists/skeptics (although a fair bunch of them are rather militant... dur). With that said, though, I still find they are a far more appealing crowd to have intellectual discussions with rather than people of faith.

Whatever it is, networking with people of ANY TYPE has not made me eschew myself from my misantrophy.

This post has been edited by jlim87: Sep 24 2012, 10:14 PM

Haha yeah i agree with jlim87. Being a rational skeptics muslim is way harder. Because 1) u'll be labelled as theist (therefore many thinks - that guy is an idiot, dont know how to think) and 2nd is you need to watch your words questioning stuff. It's good that i'm surrounded by relatively smart people therefore in the pool, there are a small group of people, two or three guys up for "offensive" and interesting discussion. And probably, some will think, ah this guy is trying to look cool calling himself "rational skeptic Muslim. There's no such thing". Well,i told u it's harder. (at least in my experience there are who thinks like that)

As a religious believer with an interest in science and philosophy (no not talking about the whole confucius stuff...) who has been here quite awhile, I have a few things I think I should add here.

Yes I understand how you atheists feel about Malaysian religious people. Most of them are charismatics and emotionally driven. Most Malaysians are also postmodernists i.e. they hate it when people disagree with them.(I'd blame our education system but...)

But I think we shouldn't be too quick to assign this close-minded behavior to only the religious people. I look at RWI and whenever debates on religion are concerned, there's always two sides just yelling at each other. There's no real intellectual exchange going on (only "quasi-intellectual")

I'm talking about militant atheism/agnosticism. Religious bigots start with the assumption that those who disagree with them are evil demonic people, while militant atheists seem to start with the assumption that all religious people are dumber than them and have no means of being smarter.

Wouldn't things be so much better if we try to understand the position of the people who disagree with us on our worldview before making any stupid arguments?

faith is not an arguement. don't use it as an arguement
don't treat it as an arguement.

easy.

Yet philosophers in the west would disagree with you. Some philosophers of religion (even those who are atheists) make their living out of talking about the existence of God and truth.

I hope my point got through... Just pleading for less shouting and more good exchanges.

What kind of good exchange is that exchange? Could you give an example, please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JVRy7bR7zI

Here's a debate between two professional philosophers. One a Christian the other an atheist.

It's obvious they disagree with each other, but the fact that they argue based on logic and reason and that they actually engage each others arguments and not their personalities is something we all should learn from.

If I recall correctly, when this particular Christian philosopher went to the UK for the debate tour, Richard Dawkins refused to debate him despite the fact that he made many personal attacks on him. Yet atheist philosophers in the UK criticised Dawkins for doing so.

The idea I think, is respect.

Good write-up! Most people can tell the difference between right & wrong, good & bad.

Since we know how to differentiate, how does “respect” work? What does it mean to you?

More importantly, “How to earn respect at work and in the community where you live?”

Earning D.Litt / DBA / EngD / PhD qualifications? Through philanthropic contributions? Or both?

lol.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or genuine (sorry), but my whole point about respect is that atheists/agnostics should respect theists as equal human beings with the same mental capacity as themselves.

What I seem to be seeing is posts here saying

"you theists are so stupid, you believe in xxx, xxx, xx,you will probably reply me with a stupid reply talking about your religion etcetc."

Sounds alot like

"You atheists are so stupid, demon possesd dimwits, you believe in xxxx, xxx, xxx, and you will probably say you don't but of course you do! I know you better than myself"

(okay my examples might be messed up, but I hope you get the idea)

I just think these exchanges are really unhelpful for both sides of the debate and is merely a display of hatred being hurled at one another without good exchanges in reasoning.

Even if there is *some* logic behind the arguments, it will often be hard to be focused on since there is so much hate going around.

Well, a lot of people have knowledge on a particular aspect, but not the EQ to properly convey the idea

Nothing is new under the sun because it has been predicted that most people can tell the right thing to do, such as...
or the bad things happen...
and yet...
Frankly speaking, you have been writing some interesting points about the “exemplary” case. In creationist & evolutionist, have you begun to notice that, when we force our ideals onto people, people tend to get stressed & strained (see Hooke's Law F=kx)? i.e. “It's impossible,” “We can't do it.” Either they just run away or they revolt against it, because that's the limit of reality. And as that occurs, you really can't help but just notice. Nonetheless, you still have to open a whole new way of thinking, which I have been “knocking on your door” since two posts.
No one is to be blamed at all. It wasn't your fault to begin with. It was also not creationist's & evolutionist's faults. In the process, things got complicated. A cruel trick played by fate. And if there is hate, we can only hate destiny for making a fool of us.

*gasps*

Young's Modulus?!!

It appears that you're engaging in RWI.
Guard your heart above all else, for it determines the course of your life (Proverbs 4:23).

(1) The Problem
Consider the following dialogue:
Nicky Wu: Do you not realize 1+1=3?

Daniel Wu: Do you not realize that you don't even know how the operation of addition is performed? You probably haven't learn Arithmetic before, or know how many types of operations are in the most elementary branch of mathematics. Not that I expect you to have learned elementary maths, but at least don't pretend to know what you don't.

Nicky Wu: It has nothing to do with the operation of addition. My point is maths is confusing, “operators (e.g +,-,*,/) are confusing”. I learned maths when I was a kid. To tell you the truth, it sucks even in Algebra and Calculus, and the maths actually teach me “imaginary number, i”. Yeah and I don't even understand what the purpose is, except more complex imaginations.

Next question: how do you think Nicky will react to Daniel's approach? Will he express joy and thankfulness at being shown how to do the maths better? Will Nicky enthusiastically commit to perform the operation of addition properly in the future? In fact, is he likely to make any positive long-term changes at all?

(2) The Mechanism
I didn’t think so and that’s where the Self-Demolish approach comes in. Whenever I’ve been in situations like above, here is how I have handled them, using the approach. If I were Daniel, I'll reconstruct Nicky’s argument in the fundamental form, without comments or critics, and clearly exposing its faulty parts, by showing:-



(3) The Procedure
This allows Nicky's argument to self-demolish. Sometimes the easiest way to guard your heart and to respect the arguer at the same time, is to reconstruct the intended argument generously into the fundamental form, and then let the argument destroy itself by having its flaw clearly exposed for all to see. Most of the time, the faulty reasoning can be recognized even by someone who has no knowledge in critical thinking.

What you are seeing here is the “respect” mechanics of a totally new way of having a difficult conversation;
i) a positive, blame-shift/criticism-free process that
ii) never puts the listener on the defensive,
iii) even in difficult or sensitive situations.

(4) What if I'm being personally attacked repeatedly?
Here are the subtleties, depending what role you are playing. But I advise you, don't go overboard unless cornered.
i) My Pastor said he's not stupid; he is just possessed by the spirit of Christopher Hitchens.
ii) My Biology teacher said he's not stupid; he is just devolving into a more “primitive” form over time.

I agree with most of what you have to say. If theists and non theists were to try to (and I note it needs work) argue in that way, that would be so much better.

I'm not necessarily speaking of myself only btw. Just pleading to the general public of LYN to at least try to have more reason and less emotions involved in their arguments.

Thanks for the detailed organization of your point btw.

So what is it that makes difficult messages so hard to give, and so much harder for people to accept? And why, given that we are all “reasonably smart” people, do most of us have such a low rate of success with it?

Well, many of us may be thinking that people just naturally resist being told what to do, especially when the message is not a good one. That is a simple and seemingly logical explanation. Surprisingly, it is also not a correct one. Because the reality is that some people can tell some people almost anything, and this fact drives how we learn to communicate with people in general.

So now, let’s try an entirely different approach. For starters, here are some of the things you can say to Mr. Advocate when you begin your discussion:

(1) “What kinds of things upset you about my religion?”
(2) “What does a good religion look like to you?” ... (I especially like this meaningful one)
(3) “Are there specific things you see wrong in my religion that we can clear up?”
(4) “What would you like to see my religion bring about in the future?”

Pardon me. i tried to go to RWI all about religion but i think it getting to just about 'you wrong, me right' and heavy stuffs like that. Some people just being clouded with their own opinion and exert to others. Didn't like it so i found here, hope just like to throw some question in my mind and get some discussion. I dont know if i fit here, but lets try.

My pondering:
What exactly do you guys think the meaning of being leftist, skeptic, agnostic and atheist? what it's really like to be one.
Do they all belong together in same group of believe/principle(i dont know what they called, it is some kind of believe, no?)
Whats the ultimate conclusion of these believe, atheism?

Sorry my word may seems offensive, it may sound judgmental, but no it is really some thought that i want to break.
Because from what i understand and believe that wasn't it because of being leftist, skeptic, agnostic that abraham, jesus, mohammad and even buddha - then become a preacher of their own religion - the major one. To extreme point, these so call prophets maybe embracing atheism at one point in a search of true god? i assume that you are well-informed of the life of these people. if you dont, then....

have you guys - the leftist, skeptic, agnostic and atheist has found enough knowledge to conclude the very own question - is there a supreme being? With our advance in knowledge and technology, let say about 150 years, the best - is it enough to conclude? or it is enough as enough!, i dont bother anymore.

so for us, the odds one - be it all above, whats the difference between us and abraham, jesus, mohammad, buddha? what make they can conclude to what they preach? what is it that trigger them to say, yes this is it.

Well here the theory i come out, for me, it is divine intervention. You see, divine intervention is pretty hard idea to grasp with nowadays, impossible we can say. im a science person, i think logically. So why divine intervention?, as i said before, in the known 'civilised' world, we come to space / vast universe consciousness, advance knowledge, theory of everything, like about 150 years ago. This knowledge is powerful enough that i think God said that's enough, these human can sooner or later found Me - can prove that I'm here. Ironically it produces more people like us - thats another topic, move on.

But how about others that dont have privilege to have this knowledge power. Able to wonder beyond the edge of milky way galaxy only to found billions more. Some biblical scientist said the most at least human civilization start around 6000years ago around 4000BC. So these 5850 years humans, isn't it unfair to them?? Dying in vain, without knowing. Life just to live , eat and shit and a bit better - to produce again? i believe in evolution(do you know orang utan has 97% identical DNA as human), so i don't mind if human exist way beyond that as that not my point here.

so i keep asking myself this question. The only answer i get is above, they need divine intervention. That's how i think its going to be fair to them.

So for us to say that's it, this is it, we have to dig deeper, which i'm afraid for some of us we just let loose ourselves in the fine line of ignorance and atheism. Have you? tell me how you can nail it?, what is it that make you come to your conclusion now? Point me where i think wrong or absolute No so that i can ponder again.

Carl Sagan on 4th dimension. Somewhat related to what im talking about. The most inspirational person.