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 I'm Tired Of Not Meeting Like Minded People, Scepticism - Suggestion For Group

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Decky
post Dec 9 2012, 12:45 PM

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As a religious believer with an interest in science and philosophy (no not talking about the whole confucius stuff...) who has been here quite awhile, I have a few things I think I should add here.

Yes I understand how you atheists feel about Malaysian religious people. Most of them are charismatics and emotionally driven. Most Malaysians are also postmodernists i.e. they hate it when people disagree with them.(I'd blame our education system but...)

But I think we shouldn't be too quick to assign this close-minded behavior to only the religious people. I look at RWI and whenever debates on religion are concerned, there's always two sides just yelling at each other. There's no real intellectual exchange going on (only "quasi-intellectual")

I'm talking about militant atheism/agnosticism. Religious bigots start with the assumption that those who disagree with them are evil demonic people, while militant atheists seem to start with the assumption that all religious people are dumber than them and have no means of being smarter.

Wouldn't things be so much better if we try to understand the position of the people who disagree with us on our worldview before making any stupid arguments?
Decky
post Dec 9 2012, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(slimey @ Dec 9 2012, 05:11 PM)
faith is not an arguement. don't use it as an arguement
don't treat it as an arguement.

easy.
*
Yet philosophers in the west would disagree with you. Some philosophers of religion (even those who are atheists) make their living out of talking about the existence of God and truth.

I hope my point got through... Just pleading for less shouting and more good exchanges.
Decky
post Dec 9 2012, 10:41 PM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Dec 9 2012, 09:59 PM)
What kind of good exchange is that exchange? Could you give an example, please?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JVRy7bR7zI

Here's a debate between two professional philosophers. One a Christian the other an atheist.

It's obvious they disagree with each other, but the fact that they argue based on logic and reason and that they actually engage each others arguments and not their personalities is something we all should learn from.

If I recall correctly, when this particular Christian philosopher went to the UK for the debate tour, Richard Dawkins refused to debate him despite the fact that he made many personal attacks on him. Yet atheist philosophers in the UK criticised Dawkins for doing so.

The idea I think, is respect.
Decky
post Dec 10 2012, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Dec 10 2012, 11:56 AM)
Good write-up! Most people can tell the difference between right & wrong, good & bad.

Since we know how to differentiate, how does “respect” work? What does it mean to you?

More importantly, “How to earn respect at work and in the community where you live?”

Earning D.Litt / DBA / EngD / PhD qualifications? Through philanthropic contributions? Or both?
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lol.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or genuine (sorry), but my whole point about respect is that atheists/agnostics should respect theists as equal human beings with the same mental capacity as themselves.

What I seem to be seeing is posts here saying

"you theists are so stupid, you believe in xxx, xxx, xx,you will probably reply me with a stupid reply talking about your religion etcetc."

Sounds alot like

"You atheists are so stupid, demon possesd dimwits, you believe in xxxx, xxx, xxx, and you will probably say you don't but of course you do! I know you better than myself"

(okay my examples might be messed up, but I hope you get the idea)

I just think these exchanges are really unhelpful for both sides of the debate and is merely a display of hatred being hurled at one another without good exchanges in reasoning.

Even if there is *some* logic behind the arguments, it will often be hard to be focused on since there is so much hate going around.
Decky
post Dec 11 2012, 03:27 PM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Dec 10 2012, 11:14 PM)
Nothing is new under the sun because it has been predicted that most people can tell the right thing to do, such as...

or the bad things happen...

and yet...

Frankly speaking, you have been writing some interesting points about the “exemplary” case. In creationist & evolutionist, have you begun to notice that, when we force our ideals onto people, people tend to get stressed & strained (see Hooke's Law F=kx)? i.e. “It's impossible,” “We can't do it.” Either they just run away or they revolt against it, because that's the limit of reality. And as that occurs, you really can't help but just notice. Nonetheless, you still have to open a whole new way of thinking, which I have been “knocking on your door” since two posts.

No one is to be blamed at all. It wasn't your fault to begin with. It was also not creationist's & evolutionist's faults. In the process, things got complicated. A cruel trick played by fate. And if there is hate, we can only hate destiny for making a fool of us.
*
*gasps*

Young's Modulus?!!
Decky
post Dec 11 2012, 11:44 PM

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QUOTE(Critical_Fallacy @ Dec 11 2012, 08:23 PM)
It appears that you're engaging in RWI.
Guard your heart above all else, for it determines the course of your life (Proverbs 4:23).

(1) The Problem
Consider the following dialogue:
Nicky Wu: Do you not realize 1+1=3?

Daniel Wu: Do you not realize that you don't even know how the operation of addition is performed? You probably haven't learn Arithmetic before, or know how many types of operations are in the most elementary branch of mathematics. Not that I expect you to have learned elementary maths, but at least don't pretend to know what you don't.

Nicky Wu: It has nothing to do with the operation of addition. My point is maths is confusing, “operators (e.g +,-,*,/) are confusing”. I learned maths when I was a kid. To tell you the truth, it sucks even in Algebra and Calculus, and the maths actually teach me “imaginary number, i”. Yeah and I don't even understand what the purpose is, except more complex imaginations.

Next question: how do you think Nicky will react to Daniel's approach? Will he express joy and thankfulness at being shown how to do the maths better? Will Nicky enthusiastically commit to perform the operation of addition properly in the future? In fact, is he likely to make any positive long-term changes at all?

(2) The Mechanism
I didn’t think so and that’s where the Self-Demolish approach comes in. Whenever I’ve been in situations like above, here is how I have handled them, using the approach. If I were Daniel, I'll reconstruct Nicky’s argument in the fundamental form, without comments or critics, and clearly exposing its faulty parts, by showing:-

user posted image

(3) The Procedure
This allows Nicky's argument to self-demolish. Sometimes the easiest way to guard your heart and to respect the arguer at the same time, is to reconstruct the intended argument generously into the fundamental form, and then let the argument destroy itself by having its flaw clearly exposed for all to see. Most of the time, the faulty reasoning can be recognized even by someone who has no knowledge in critical thinking.

What you are seeing here is the “respect” mechanics of a totally new way of having a difficult conversation;
i) a positive, blame-shift/criticism-free process that
ii) never puts the listener on the defensive,
iii) even in difficult or sensitive situations.

(4) What if I'm being personally attacked repeatedly?
Here are the subtleties, depending what role you are playing. But I advise you, don't go overboard unless cornered.
i) My Pastor said he's not stupid; he is just possessed by the spirit of Christopher Hitchens.
ii) My Biology teacher said he's not stupid; he is just devolving into a more “primitive” form over time.
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I agree with most of what you have to say. If theists and non theists were to try to (and I note it needs work) argue in that way, that would be so much better.

I'm not necessarily speaking of myself only btw. Just pleading to the general public of LYN to at least try to have more reason and less emotions involved in their arguments.

Thanks for the detailed organization of your point btw.

 

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