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 Lawyer's Corner v2, One-stop centre for any legal queries

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tonytyk
post Oct 12 2012, 05:25 PM

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QUOTE(dariofoo @ Oct 12 2012, 04:41 PM)
You got that from an ACCA write up, right?  hmm.gif

Let's take a look at the RPGT Act 1976. The definition of dispose:
“dispose” means, subject to subsection (4), sell, convey, transfer,
assign, settle or alienate whether by agreement or by force of law.

Looking at a strict interpretation , it would mean that disposal is by way of an agreement. As such, I would argue that date of disposal is the date of the agreement.

Yes, there is no doubt that in a transaction of a  leasehold property where consent is required, it is a conditional contract. However, I am not of the opinion that date of disposal should be extended to date of consent.

I have two reasons for the said view:

1. Every agreement is conditional up to the very end, i.e. success of registration of the Memorandum of Transfer or perfection of the Deed of Assignment. If the MOT cannot be registered or the DOA cannot be perfected, then the entire agreement is terminated and parties are restored to their original position. Assuming that the argument for the date of disposal ought to be the date consent is given, one might as well go on and say that it is further conditional upon successful registration of the MOT or perfection of the DOA. After all, if consent is given, and yet at the end, transfer/assignment cannot be done - would the transaction still fail and the agreement terminated?

2. For purposes of RPGT, 2% is payable to the Director General of the IRD within 30 days from the date of disposal (date of SPA) being advance remittance of RPGT payable - if disposal is less than 5 years and if no exemption has been applied for.

However, LHDN does not define date of disposal as date consent is given. It looks at date of disposal as date of SPA, i.e. 30 days from date of SPA.

Couple this with the fact that for leasehold properties which require consent, there is a very very very little chance for consent to be given within 30 days from the date of the SPA. However, the 2% must still be paid. As such, LHDN is indifferent as to whether consent is ultimately allowed or otherwise. The 2% must still be remitted.

From my personal experience, date of disposal has always been date of SPA. For 100% confirmation, you can call LHDN customer service and enquire therein.  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Thanks Dario for the clarification. Appreciate that
mcrayfc
post Oct 12 2012, 05:34 PM

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QUOTE(dariofoo @ Oct 12 2012, 04:45 PM)
Police might knock on the door once and give a polite reminder but I doubt if it will work. Legal LOD seems like the last resort and there is a legal cause of action for nuisance. There would be merits in this case to even get an injunction. However, one has to bear in mind the legal costs involved. Is it worth the hassle and who is going to bear the costs?
*
I think must at least ask the police to show up once to show our seriousness. How much does it cost for legal LOD, just an approximate range of fee? as well as injunction and other legal costs?

I won't mind paying the cost to help my current tenants or future tenants as the unit above who are making all the nuisance are owner-occupier.
shawnk
post Oct 12 2012, 08:02 PM

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A question on punching original mortgage loan documents for filing purpose. Would it void it?
Seremban_2
post Oct 12 2012, 10:11 PM

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QUOTE(me_1980s @ Oct 12 2012, 11:35 AM)
Haha

SBC/CIR/069/12
16th August, 2012

Dear Members Of The Bar,

ATTACHMENT STUDENTS TOUTING FOR CASES AT KLANG COURTS

We refer to our circular dated 20.3.2012.

We have again received complaints from lawyers that attachment students are touting for cases at the Klang Courts. The Selangor Bar Committee views such practices as distressing.

Meanwhile, the Selangor Bar Committee has informed the Police of the above and will not hesitate to take whatever legal action available in law against such students and firms that have engaged them and would like to advise members not to misuse attachment students in order to ensure that the integrity and dignity of the legal profession is preserved.

We would keep members informed of any future developments.

Thank you.

Dato' Suraj Singh DIMP PKC
Chairperson
Criminal Law Court Liaison Sub-committee
Selangor Bar Committee.
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May I know why people perceive in a way that the more lawyer in a law firm the better? Is it the more lawyer held responsible to the Good Name of the firm? The more lawyer carry the risk of case they do on it.

This post has been edited by Seremban_2: Oct 13 2012, 03:36 AM
gracelim2202
post Oct 12 2012, 10:23 PM

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QUOTE(dariofoo @ Oct 12 2012, 12:08 PM)
1. Of course it can go through. The lawyer cannot charge you for something which he does not do any work for!

2. How can he change it if it has been signed, initialled on every page and if you have a copy of it? Just be extra vigilant, that's all.

3. SPA signed? If so, then there is little point to bring in a lawyer at such a late stage, bearing in mind also that there is no redemption involved and that you are doing the CKHT yourself.

Just be extra careful and vigilant. If you are smart, the lawyer would not dare to mess around with you.
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1. The lawyer claimed that they did the "work" by submitting to land office for the title search. rclxub.gif

2. & 3. SPA has not signed yet. (in comparison, I think the buyer will be more anxious to get this deal done than me nod.gif )

Of course I wouldn't want to see this deal falling apart. Just that the lawyer has to charge more responsibly and reasonably.
nyzx
post Oct 13 2012, 11:49 PM

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I would like to ask for the 50% of stamp duty rebate. I have purchase a house from developer around rm470K on AUg 2011. SNP is free since it pay by developer.

1. Did i entitle to get any stamp duty rebate for MOT as my purchase price is more than 400K.
2. Did i entitle to get any stamp duty rebate for loan agreement?
TSdariofoo
post Oct 14 2012, 12:18 AM

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QUOTE(mcrayfc @ Oct 12 2012, 05:34 PM)
I think must at least ask the police to show up once to show our seriousness. How much does it cost for legal LOD, just an approximate range of fee? as well as injunction and other legal costs?

I won't mind paying the cost to help my current tenants or future tenants as the unit above who are making all the nuisance are owner-occupier.
*
For litigation, fees are subjective. Best to approach a lawyer and get a quote.
TSdariofoo
post Oct 14 2012, 12:18 AM

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QUOTE(shawnk @ Oct 12 2012, 08:02 PM)
A question on punching original mortgage loan documents for filing purpose. Would it void it?
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No it won't
TSdariofoo
post Oct 14 2012, 12:21 AM

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QUOTE(nyzx @ Oct 13 2012, 11:49 PM)
I would like to ask for the 50% of stamp duty rebate. I have purchase a house from developer around rm470K on AUg 2011. SNP is free since it pay by developer.

1. Did i entitle to get any stamp duty rebate for MOT as my purchase price is more than 400K.
2. Did i entitle to get any stamp duty rebate for loan agreement?
*
I've answered your earlier post on the same question.


Added on October 14, 2012, 5:10 pmBack online. Accidently closed it yst. Thanks to cherroy for reopening d thread

This post has been edited by dariofoo: Oct 14 2012, 05:10 PM
hc2012
post Oct 14 2012, 07:43 PM

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Hi dariofoo,

My husband and I have purchased an apartment and we are now at the final stage, i.e. seller to handover vacant possession. The seller refused to move out/hand over the key until he receives refund (waiver) from his bank for the penalty imposed on him for early settlement. Though the lawyer has explained to him that that has nothing to do with us and he needs to liaise with his bank directly, he insists on that.

FYI, we appointed same lawyer for S&P, our lawyer. My bank has disbursed the balance sum and lawyer confirmed receipt on 21-Sep-2012. The seller was informed and we went to see the apartment on 25-Sep-2012. We noticed that he has not moved at all. We informed lawyer and lawyer issued an official letter to inform him on his obligation to handover vp as per S&P. Until todate, he has yet to handover the key.

1) I have heard from friends that there is case like this whereby the seller refused to move out and owner first go to see owner together with police. 2nd time will go to change the lock, then 3rd time enter the premise and throw all things out. But after reading your posts, I doubt that we can do that, right?

2) In your post #1273,
Q: May i know as well at what point above, I can confrim the house ownership have been successfully transfer from the seller to me?
A: At the stage where the title has been transferred to your name and where you have collected the keys.

Does that mean at this moment, though the title is already under our names, we are still not the legal owner? Does the seller has the right to cancel the deal at this point?

Other questions:
3) We have given him time and would prefer not to proceed with legal action. But what if we are to proceed with legal action, how long would the process take? Is it the lawyer's obligation to make sure the seller handover the VP to us and no additional legal cost incur if we choose to proceed with legal action?

4) Is the verbal conversation/follow up made by lawyer with the seller valid in court?

5) Normally both parties will initial on every page and sign full signature at the signing page. What if the seller didn't initial at every page but only signed the signing page, is the S&P still valid? I believe so, else the bank would not have disbursed all the sum. ??

6) What is your advice for us on what to do next?

Many thanks to you in advance.

This post has been edited by hc2012: Oct 14 2012, 11:52 PM
me_1980s
post Oct 15 2012, 09:25 AM

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QUOTE(tonytyk @ Oct 12 2012, 05:25 PM)
Thanks Dario for the clarification. Appreciate that
*
One may look into para 15 of Schedule 2 of the Real Property Gains Tax, wherein it states:-

(1) Except where this Schedule provides otherwise, a disposal of an asset
shall be deemed to take place—
(a) where there is a written agreement for the disposal of the asset, on
the date of such agreement; or
(b) where there is no written agreement, on the date of completion of the
disposal of the asset.


However, there is a conditional also, wherein para 16 of the same Schedule:-
16. Where—
(a) a contract for the disposal of an asset is conditional; and
(b) the condition is satisfied (by the exercise of a right under an option
or otherwise),
the acquisition and disposal of the asset shall be regarded as taking place at
the time the contract was made, unless the amount of the consideration depends
wholly or mainly on the value of the asset at the time when the condition is
satisfied in which case the acquisition and disposal shall be regarded as taking
place when the condition is satisfied.


The para 16 has been amended from:-
16. Where a contract for the disposal of an asset is conditional and the condition is satisfied (by the exercise of a right under an option or otherwise), the acquisition and disposal of the asset shall be regarded as taking place at the time the contract was made, unless-
a )the acquisition or disposal requires the approval by the Government or an authority or committee appointed by the Government, the date of disposal shall be the date of such approval; or
b )the approval referred to in subparagraph (a) is conditional, the date of disposal shall be the date when the last of all such conditions is satisfied.

Hopefully it helps u. As the law now stands, it is on the date of the agreement.


Added on October 15, 2012, 9:27 am
QUOTE(Seremban_2 @ Oct 12 2012, 10:11 PM)
May I know why people perceive in a way that the more lawyer in a law firm the better? Is it the more lawyer held responsible to the Good Name of the firm? The more lawyer carry the risk of case they do on it.
*
Haha.. Tough question to answer. It is very subjective.

This post has been edited by me_1980s: Oct 15 2012, 09:27 AM
TSdariofoo
post Oct 15 2012, 11:53 AM

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QUOTE(hc2012 @ Oct 14 2012, 07:43 PM)
1) I have heard from friends that there is case like this whereby the seller refused to move out and owner first go to see owner together with police.  2nd time will go to change the lock, then 3rd time enter the premise and throw all things out.  But after reading your posts, I doubt that we can do that, right?
*
You can't do that. It is illegal. Vacant possession has not even been handed to you yet. How can you go in and throw away his things?


QUOTE(hc2012 @ Oct 14 2012, 07:43 PM)
2) In your post #1273,
Q: May i know as well at what point above, I can confrim the house ownership have been successfully transfer from the seller to me?
A: At the stage where the title has been transferred to your name and where you have collected the keys.

Does that mean at this moment, though the title is already under our names, we are still not the legal owner?  Does the seller has the right to cancel the deal at this point?
*
Let me elaborate. Once title has been transferred in your favour, you are already the legal registered owner. The final step would be when you collect the keys - also known as surrender of vacant possession. The vendor does not have the right to cancel the transaction at this point.

QUOTE(hc2012 @ Oct 14 2012, 07:43 PM)
3)  We have given him time and would prefer not to proceed with legal action. But what if we are to proceed with legal action, how long would the process take?  Is it the lawyer's obligation to make sure the seller handover the VP to us and no additional legal cost incur if we choose to proceed with legal action?

4)  Is the verbal conversation/follow up made by lawyer with the seller valid in court?

5)  Normally both parties will initial on every page and sign full signature at the signing page.  What if the seller didn't initial at every page but only signed the signing page, is the S&P still valid?  I believe so, else the bank would not have disbursed all the sum. ??

6)  What is your advice for us on what to do next?

Many thanks to you in advance.
*
3. How long it would take would depend on the efficiency of the Courts, your lawyer and also whether the vendor contests it or otherwise. It is not your SPA lawyer's duty to ensure that keys are handed to you. His duty would be to send over a letter to the vendor informing him of the particular clause in relation to surrender of VP in your SPA and demand that he complies with it. If you want to take legal action to enforce the clause then you would need to instruct him accordingly (with a separate set of fees) or appoint another lawyer, if this one does not do litigation.

4. How to prove? The other party would deny whatever is adverse to him.

5. Failure to initial every page does not nullify the agreement.

6. Send in a legal letter of demand. Also demand for late penalty interest. Balance purchase price disbursed according to SPA, right?


TSdariofoo
post Oct 15 2012, 11:54 AM

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QUOTE(me_1980s @ Oct 15 2012, 09:25 AM)
One may look into para 15 of Schedule 2 of the Real Property Gains Tax, wherein it states:-

(1) Except where this Schedule provides otherwise, a disposal of an asset
shall be deemed to take place—
(a) where there is a written agreement for the disposal of the asset, on
the date of such agreement; or
(b) where there is no written agreement, on the date of completion of the
disposal of the asset.


However, there is a conditional also, wherein para 16 of the same Schedule:-
16. Where—
(a) a contract for the disposal of an asset is conditional; and
(b) the condition is satisfied (by the exercise of a right under an option
or otherwise),
the acquisition and disposal of the asset shall be regarded as taking place at
the time the contract was made, unless the amount of the consideration depends
wholly or mainly on the value of the asset at the time when the condition is
satisfied in which case the acquisition and disposal shall be regarded as taking
place when the condition is satisfied.


The para 16 has been amended from:-
16. Where a contract for the disposal of an asset is conditional and the condition is satisfied (by the exercise of a right under an option or otherwise), the acquisition and disposal of the asset shall be regarded as taking place at the time the contract was made, unless-
a )the acquisition or disposal requires the approval by the Government or an authority or committee appointed by the Government, the date of disposal shall be the date of such approval; or
b )the approval referred to in subparagraph (a) is conditional, the date of disposal shall be the date when the last of all such conditions is satisfied.

Hopefully it helps u. As the law now stands, it is on the date of the agreement.

*
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hc2012
post Oct 15 2012, 12:35 PM

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QUOTE(dariofoo @ Oct 15 2012, 11:53 AM)
6. Send in a legal letter of demand. Also demand for late penalty interest. Balance purchase price disbursed according to SPA, right?
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The lawyer said all the delay are due to the vendor side, so no penalty on me. The lawyer is holding the balance purchase price. Only pending the release of key from seller. They never experience such cases before, so myself is like stuck here, dunno what to do.

Sending legal letter of demand... to be sent by my SPA lawyer or litigation lawyer? Does it mean we are entering into SP by doing so?

Thanks.

TSdariofoo
post Oct 15 2012, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE(hc2012 @ Oct 15 2012, 12:35 PM)
The lawyer said all the delay are due to the vendor side, so no penalty on me.  The lawyer is holding the balance purchase price.  Only pending the release of key from seller.  They never experience such cases before, so myself is like stuck here, dunno what to do.

Sending legal letter of demand... to be sent by my SPA lawyer or litigation lawyer?  Does it mean we are entering into SP by doing so?

Thanks.
*
I meant penalty to be paid by the vendor to you. Are you sure what the lawyer is done is correct according to the SPA? Normally the monies will be paid to the vendor and within xx days, the vendor must hand over the keys to you, failing which the vendor has to pay late penalty interest to you.

Anyway, check what is provided for in your SPA.

QUOTE(hc2012 @ Oct 15 2012, 12:35 PM)
Sending legal letter of demand... to be sent by my SPA lawyer or litigation lawyer?  Does it mean we are entering into SP by doing so?

Thanks.
*
Any lawyer would do. Yes, the next step is to compel the vendor to hand over VP via an application for SP. Of course, late penalty interest would continue on daily rest until he does so.
Ms Sim
post Oct 15 2012, 04:09 PM

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hi dario, im in the process of selling my house. the lawyer firm recommended me to sign the appointment letter, in which i will appoint them acting on my behalf only they will send me the breakdown of the invoice for the legal fees + snp. My selling price for my house is 380K, it charge me 3.6k for the legal fees. according to the legal calculator, it only cost about 3.11k. Hence, i would like to ask is it necessary that i need to sign the appointment letter 1st?
TSdariofoo
post Oct 15 2012, 04:34 PM

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QUOTE(Ms Sim @ Oct 15 2012, 04:09 PM)
hi dario, im in the process of selling my house. the lawyer firm recommended me to sign the appointment letter, in which i will appoint them acting on my behalf only they will send me the breakdown of the invoice for the legal fees + snp. My selling price for my house is 380K, it charge me 3.6k for the legal fees. according to the legal calculator, it only cost about 3.11k. Hence, i would like to ask is it necessary that i need to sign the appointment letter 1st?
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Of course you would need a proper invoice with the breakdown before you appoint them. Insist on it. If they still refuse, then it is unethical of them and you should appoint another law firm.
Ms Sim
post Oct 15 2012, 04:47 PM

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as the buyer's loan already approved, it only waiting from my side to confirm on the snp thingy. according to the lawyer, the due date will be on 22Oct2012. is it enough time to draft all the snp thingy? thanks
shearmagic
post Oct 15 2012, 11:33 PM

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hi dario,

i am the seller of a condo (still under master title), and would like to ask if the balance payment of the purchase price should be paid within 90 days or 90 working days?

here are the wordings in the SPA:

QUOTE
The Balance of the Purchase Price amounting to xxx shall be paid by the Purchaser(s) or his financiers to the said Solicitors as stakeholders within ninety(90) days from the date of receipt by the said Solicitors of the Letter of Confirmation to the sale/transfer of the said Property from the Developer (if applicable) hereof PROVIDED ALWAYS that the Vendor(s) has fulfilled all terms and conditions imposed by the Developer in their said letter.


In the "Interpretation" section of the SPA, it is stated:

QUOTE
the number of working days shall exclude Sundays and Public Holidays in the state of Kuala Lumpur


This post has been edited by shearmagic: Oct 15 2012, 11:46 PM
TSdariofoo
post Oct 16 2012, 10:02 AM

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QUOTE(shearmagic @ Oct 15 2012, 11:33 PM)
hi dario,

i am the seller of a condo (still under master title), and would like to ask if the balance payment of the purchase price should be paid within 90 days or 90 working days?

here are the wordings in the SPA:
In the "Interpretation" section of the SPA, it is stated:
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90 normal days.

The interpretation clause which you have stated defines where the term 'working days' appears, and not 'days'.

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