Exactly....thats why its a flawed comparison....

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Added on November 29, 2011, 3:07 pmIn 2005, a mee soup cost me .00175 oz of gold. Now its .00127 oz of gold.....so value has been preserved between those years

Yes and No....which you answered in your next breath! 

In your past statement, you mentioned gold has no intrinsic value,no returns?

You are right...an oz of gold will FOREVER be an oz of gold; no more, no less. So essentially, its not an investment.
WHICH brings us back to value preservation........ 

I think what cherroy trying to say is, we should feel sad when we see the "return of investment" from gold because of the depreciation of paper money.

If you say its has no fundamentals, then why call it an investment?
Would you invest in a one oz granite stone?

Did i say i dont care about gold value?
i said an oz is an oz....isnt that 'value'?

Dont understand yer last bit............

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Added on November 29, 2011, 3:47 pm
Maybe those are wrong reasons? 

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Added on November 29, 2011, 3:50 pm

Can you define investment class when you mention "it has NO FUNDAMENTALS"?
Are Tupils "investment class" assets?

Whattabout 1900 to 2011?   

Funny i dont see humans ever using tulips for trading or exchanging that with goods? Do you?  

What you see in trading is fiat gold, not physical gold.
You are right about the mispricing/under pricing.
Is gold REALLY corelated to world stock mkt in the way that you described?
Shorter reaction perhaps due to emotions...but longer term?

i am not here to debate gold vs farmland but that gold is value.
What you are doing is speculating whareas history has shown that gold has been used to purchase farmlands.
This is the real precption that you mentioned- GOLD is MONEY/valuable.

Sounds familair but it is value and has always been even when i started recently in 2002.
As far as gold not giving me constant returns, valued in fiat ringgit, gold has returned me 19% p annum since 2002
when i exchange for ringgit. 24% p.a when i exchange in for fiat uSD...... Sounds unfamiliar......  
An oz of gold is an oz of gold.....

+1.
J.P Morgan also accept physical gold as collateral.
However, J.P Morgan did not accept any paper gold even from it`s own product.   
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...2457252596.html

Maybe Warren is not as smart as one thinks?
Maybe he doesnt understand precious metals?

He bought physical silver and was widely specualted that he sold to the SLV startups..

i am not argiung why is he not in silver now. Why did he sell at $7?  
After he sold, went to $12.........must be real smart.

He must be real smart that he cant beat me at investing in the last 10 years.......  

selling at the rise of the silver bubble?  What bubble at $7???    

not as simple as that, physical gold is still the best.
banker will know how to milk their customer. get physical and stop the milking process.

if paper gold is safe enough, why all the countries keep on buying physical gold and need to find a secure place to store it. They can just buy it through a bank and keep the 'gold saving book' in their drawer

sometimes we are not sure that banks with gold savings account really have that 'gold' if we ask for it.of course when we ask for it is when we need money derived from benefit of the gold we invested.usually they only put the name on the savings concept and let people assume its a GSC.

1. from legal point of view, you need to look at the contract for gold saving a/c. in most if not all occasion, it is unavailable for common people lah.
2. it is clearly stated  in the term and condition  that there may be some losses if U invest in gold.
3. default scenario.

1. U buy for Bank XXX in malaysia.
Bank XXX hedge the paper gold with Trader YYY at COMEX.
Trader YYY at COMEX screw up, cannot deliver the paper gold to Bank XXX.
How does Bank XXX going to pay U? put the blame on Trader YYY.
so nothing to do with Bank XXX reputation etc, it all has to do with the contract signed between Bank XXX and trader YYY.
2. U buy for Bank XXX in malaysia.
Bank XXX hedge the paper gold with BAnk YYY at COMEX.
bank YYY at COMEX screw up, cannot deliver the paper gold to Bank XXX.
Bank YYY will continue to print $$$ to pay Bank XXX lah.

then, U may see this announcement in the future.
a) to prevent manipulation, market loss to exchange etcc... spread of paper has to be higher.
then come a day, due to current scenario, we have to stop trading on Monday. Price is USD3000/oz
settlement price will be based on Monday.
then they will background print more $$$ then pay U USD3000/oz. irregardless on when U redeem it.
then when U get the USD3000. price of physical on Tuesday is USD4000/oz then on Friday it USD6000/oz
but U still have USD3000/- 1/2 of your $ is robbed.

to prevent all this scenario, get the real physical then nobody can steal it from U lah.

If fiat money is 100% risk while gold has no risk relatively speaking, and this fact is appreciated across the board, then how come investors are dumping gold for fiat money (esp usd) these few weeks? Of late the trust in fiat seem to be bigger than trust in gold and getting stronger, even though people know the usd is just paper. Any guesses why? Can the euro's problems really affect the value of gold? I just don't understand it. (Sorry I'm new to this gold thingy...)

1. I doubt bank will pay. I.e. DBS did not pay those who invested in Lehman brothers.

2. That day will come, U just wait lah.

2.

1. When default, it is not about reputation anymore. It about legal issue and court order.
Bank are earning few % interest from depositor, thus every single cents count.
I don;t think they will just suck up the losses, they will let the court to decide.
Do U think the press will be on your side?

I seen some many court cases between banks in financial dispute. recently today 14 Dec 2011 the star, bank auction off a house w/o telling the owner.
In property auction, bank r the 1st to wash their hand. So unfair to the buyer.
So, U think bank will keep the reputation or it will end up in court to decide.

I.e. Highland tower tragedy, how long does it takes the bank to waive the payment for the victim in the highland tower.
Does all the bank did the same thing?

can you name me us some cases where the court case is in favours of consumer? Then how much legal $$ is spent to get those verdict.

Get physical then U don;t have to worry about this.

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Added on December 14, 2011, 11:04 amas long as it's fiat, it 's still in the banker or Central bank control. You still play by their rules. They can impose lot of things and rules
a) Increase spread.
b) Impose tax on earning.
in the end U get less gold then you started with.

remember 1 oz of gold in 1913 is USD20. It has lost over 95% of its value today due to fiat.
paper Gold is traded 10 - 50x more than physical. All these are known numbers,
yet if someone still 1 2 get into fiat in form or paper gold, be my guest, for me it has been long physical.

until someone get us the contract how paper gold is operated in local bank, we can;t really argue much about it.
all are just merely assumption.
Even if U put cash in bank PIDM only insure up to 250K per account let alone paper gold.
It 's clearly stated gold investment account can have losses in the pass book.
When that day comes, one can spend all the time arguing with bank, I just don;t have the energy and time 2 do so.

with regards to loss, even if U have a house the house can be flooded, tsunami, burn down riot etc. nothing is save from losses.
For gold currently keeping in safe deposit box facilities is quite safe lah.

when one do physical, one must cater for some losses lah. inventory checking is important,. ask a secuirty consultant lah on how to secure your stuff.

up to RM100K insurance per box for some operator of safe deposit.
some are 200K to 400K. pretty much it covers for majority people.

This kind of default, when it come it comes with surprise, immediately come and bang2 sapu everybody one.
people want definite guarantee  insurance that why they buy physical gold.
it's a protection for hyper inflation.
its for long long time maybe 5-10 years horizon.

people who do not believe in definite insurance will treat gold as an investment thus they prefer paper lor.
which indirectly mean they don;t believe in hyperinflation and fiat can solve most of the problem.

paper gold will collapse one day lah.
for something that is virtual traded 50x more than physical. It will be gone soon.

just like you take chances with paper gold some take chances on physical.

bank default is a big event affecting a lot of people. if it comes almost everybddy will kena.
theft, flood, fire is small event affecting few people thus it occur more often.
thus, statistic is not applicable for this scenario.

It 's just like saying/comparing how many people kill by accident vs Tsunami 2004 in Indonesia.

5-10 years is a long 2 time agree. Average insurance policy lasted 20-30 years, some protect up to 70 yrs old
Thus if you compare 5-10 years for insurance + presevation of wealth purchasing power then it's not long. it just short

in any financial planning, you should have some cash + insurance in hand any time. in case anything happen just used your cash.
I believe 20 years ago for average citizen, 1991 one may have 10K cash in hand for emergency, now maybe 20K in hand for emergency and
insurance policy protection up to 100K to 1 million.

the insurance can be in the form of gold, in 1991 you may get at USD400.oz x RM2.5 = RM1000 per oz.
if you keep 10 oz in 1991. then now it is RM50,000.
so it;s a form of insurance base on your saving.

thus, it an saving insurance. when you need $ just sell it.
whether paper gold can achieve that integrity and commitment for the next 10 - 30 years remain a big Question with lot of bank default in USA, europe, etc  in recent years.

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Added on December 16, 2011, 8:41 amindeed fiat do solved our problem for 98 years but creating many2 more indirect problems which one wish not to encounter.
such as unaffordable housing in SG, Taiwan, HK and also malaysia.

when USA use gold as currency prior to 1913, there was no inflation for 200 years 1700s - 1913 with some exception during the civil war.

paper money also created War.
with unlimited ability to print $$$, government can go to War , e.g WW2.
the indirect;y steal the saving from public by massive printing press,  to fund their political agenda war, social program U name it.

if all $ is limited by gold, the war will lasted less than 3 month after that no more $ to fund everything else.
WORLd peace.

mfglobal is the recent one.
read the horror story ok.
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/trust...llion-mf-global

trustee seize (curi) all the stored customer gold. What about paper gold?
long time kena curi already lah.
but small fry no need to worry lah.

in summary,
physical gold lost like died of accident . if you can avoid it, then U won;t die

paper gold lost like dying due to cancer. the doctor will tell U there is hope 4 U lah. your life is not lost etc.. and still charge you medication+consultation fee (storage fee). Guarantee died.

will paper gold lost it value?
i want to topup my MGIA, but afraid coz its dropping faster than it recovering..

Theres risk of  THeft in both instances..whther physical or paper as demonstrated by MF global-
you are left with a piece of receipt

You dont read too well....

Its with respect to THEFT.........

There will be a difference IF

Paper fails and the TSHTF scenario. This would mean that any PAPER will NOT be trusted.

http://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea...00-to-1-2009-12

So in the meantime, paper gold CAN be sujbected to theft as phsyical as evidenced by MFglobal

Let's visualize a scenario when paper gold default is approaching.

Say, inflation starts to pick up pace due to further quantitative easing measures. Then common people start to pick up pace converting their fiat money into precious metals, some goes to paper gold, some goes to physical gold. And that result in gold price being pushed higher. That will encourage more and more people converting fiat into gold. And when inflation "growth" slope becomes steeper, more fearful people will chase gold like crazy and they totally lose confidence in fiat money. 

Then sellers prefer to receive gold rather than fiat (unless they charge a high premium on fiat), the physical people can start buying stuff with their metal. The paper guys can try to convert their paper gold into physical and start buying things. Now, here's when paper problem comes. During this time, can you imagine how immense shortage of gold are we experiencing? Coupled with the huge amount of paper wanting to be converted to physical gold, don't you think a default will be inevitable?