By financing, you mean take bank loan? SEDA already comeout the bank loan list? What is the interest rate? I thaught SEDA still teaching the bank what is PV.

The installer offer me 16k/kw. German panel and inverter. No china panel as efficeincy is low. If I source by myself, can get cheaper. Warranty still have. But shipping cost have to settle by myself. Parts is from US. Micro inverter is still expensive. But if getting popular and price drop, can consider. DCV panel have more option for me to modify and play around.

Most of the installer will separate the parts warranty. Panel mostly can give over 10yrs warranty. While other parts is vary between 2-5yrs.

How about insuarance?

Financing is still pending from installer to arrange. If dun get, will go for 4kW.

The price offered to you is high (IMHO). I don't believe the China panel is inferior than Euro. You can compare the 'true' efficiency of panel in California gov website http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/equipment/
Other equipments available as well. The California government take up initiative to set up test lab to do testing and review the solar related products. So, it is a good source for reference.

The installer offered separate warranty for panel and inverter but each has 10 yrs warranty.

Insurance? I don't think any available now.

BTW, PV FIT application is available from 24 Sept

I'm getting YingLi. Yes the efficiency is not that much difference if you compare YingLi and other european brand. You shouldn't care to much about efficiency as it will be compensated by the number of panels to get the output that you need anyway.

has anyone of you guys done a ROI calculation? last time (early 2011) i got a proposal done for for approx. 23 kWp with kyocera panels and Kaco inverter. price per kWp 15k++.

i take it prices have dropped a lot in the meantime? then it might be financially feasable to go through with it. what's the typical actual ROI for a lifespan of 20 yrs assuming the panel is worthless by then all things considered (maintenance, insurance for the system, tax etc.)? when i did the calculation in 2011 actual ROI was below FD rate so i didnt go through with it - i need to finance the installation through a loan obviously.

would love to share information and experiences with you guys.

23kWp is huge. We are talking individual residential type.
For ROI, my calculation as below for 4kWp system

Installation Cost: 40k
Return = 4kW x 3.5hr/day x 330 day/yr x RM1.30/kWh = RM6k/yr
(Assume 330 sunny day per yr.Max sunlight only 3.5hrs per day because 4kW is max rated power)

Maintenance assume to be 2 times a yr. (Clean and check PV system) Maintenance service is RM200/service. First 2 yrs free service. Parts cost is zero because installer give 10 yrs warranty for panel and inverter.

ROI in 10yrs = [(RM6k/yr x 10yr) - (8yr x 2 service/yr x RM200)] / [40] = 142%.
Therefore, average ROI a yr is 14.2%

i have a huge roof so its really residential.

but your calculation is a bit off.

yield seems about right though.

you will probably get around 4,400 kWh under ideal real world circumstances. so this would mean aprox. 5720 RM p.a.

minus costs:
cleaning: 400 RM p.a.
insurance for approx. 40k value, probably around 1.5% = 600 RM
writeoff: (40k/20 yrs) = 2k

total costs: 3k
net: 2720 RM p.a.

Return 6,8%

BUT you also need to pay income tax on the proceeds (no writeoff or insurance offset for personal afaik). you you also need to pay income tax on 5720 RM, assuming your rate is 20% then you need to pay 1144 income tax

net 2720 - 1144 = 1576

then the ROI is only 3,9%. its not too shabby now that the costs have fallen so much but its still not super attractive or am i wrong here?

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Added on September 14, 2012, 2:57 pmforgot to add - i plan to use my installation as building material and roof replacement. this gives a little extra but its just not enough to finance after paying income tax. i would have to check on the new prices but borrowing the money would cost probably around 4,5%. if i could at least break even on the installation then i'd do it because it's a good thing to use renewable energy but with the current structure of the FiT it still seems that despite the huge drop in PV prices the ones installing them have to chip in at the end of the day.

This post has been edited by PJusa: Sep 14 2012, 02:57 PM

Your calculation take care most consideration, especially the income tax. I forget bout that one.

but since you include write off in calculation I think you need to modify a bit. Panel life span is long. It has 1% production reduction every yr and inverter has shorter life span, around 10yrs. So, the write off should consider these elements. Too bad I don't know how to calculate.

Which insurance company offering protection to PV system? Could you share?

i also forgot about the income tax untill i almost signed the PO already. then all of a sudden all the profit gone.

the thing about the write off is tricky but from an investment point of view i fear you would have to give it a save lifespan. i also didnt take into consideration the loss in production because it pretty much stable for 20 yrs. there is not enough data yet to make good assumptions for longer periods of time. for example will the panels start to break&crumble or crack? our weather is unforgiving - even hammerite doesnt last more than 2 yrs under the direct sun. i spoke wiht a lot of the installers and they are confident for 25 yrs, maybe MAYBE 30yrs. so if you're daring then by all means write off the system over 30yrs. this will add 733.33 RM p.a. to the calculation i.e.

2309 p.a. = 5.77% so you can actually break even if you finance the installtio. margin is thin though.

as for the insurance i only made a call to MCIS Zurich before and asked if i can include it under the houseowner policy if the panels are used as building material. answer: can. not so sure if you can insure them if they are not part of the roof. maybe under general risk, not sure about the premium then though. under houseowner will surely be cheaper cause that premium is regulated.

who did your proposal btw?

So far what I know, 16k/kw is about average. Since it is german system they offer, I guess the price is about there. They don't offer china panel cause the data efficiency is not that good.

The insuarance is not from the local. The whole system is insuare by the german PV manufacturing appoint insuarance company. Which is from german too. They cover the system defect, lost and even income lost due to product.

If you want to have real local pv output data, check here -> http://www.cooltek.org/pv-solar.php Download the pdf report. This guy have 4.8kwp since 2007 and record everyday output power of his PV. He complaining about TNB late payment for his FIT.

The ROI did put me off from proceed further. Unless I did it my way. Which I get the system myself and install. Way cheaper alot.

For resindential, the max is 12kwp. For 23kwp, you need to apply under cormercial quota. And the rate much more lower.

Even the panel lifespan is long, your contract with TNB is max 21yrs. Should we calculate till 21yrs?

Long as it state? Or actually being tested ? Just like led, it last long but performance drop after continues used for few years. Brightness drop.

This post has been edited by weikee: Sep 14 2012, 05:23 PM

The efficiency will drop every yrs. So till end of your contract 21yrs, don't think your income will be the same.

At here due to hot weather, the performance will be drop further. Solar panel work best when cool clear sunny day.

Now they use solar to boil water, the steam to drive generator. This are more economical and efficient. But need larger area. If got concrete roof maybe can consider ;-)

ozak,

where did you get the info that max is 12 kwp for residential? we prepared the entire proposal and all in feb 2011 and noone objected or pointed out a max. kwp per application. did the rules change?

if you can make it large, it should be done due to economies of scale. no point in many small setups if you can do one that covers the entire roof right?

I get the information from the installer who conduct the workshop. The quota seems from the SEDA. I only remember the individual which max is 12kw. For commercial something like Mw max. While the farm type, need to have najib contact. Otherwise no installer can help you.

Many rule doesn't make sense and seems like protect themselve. Like the yearly quota. Why to have quota to limit the application? Gov have a target of 17% till 2030 for RE. The explain is, TNB don't have much free money to give?

From RE Act, you can apply up to 72kW for individual. Anyway, rules may change over time

I wonder the solar heater here can achieve this boiling point or not. I can see something can invent from there.

This post has been edited by ozak: Sep 14 2012, 11:15 PM

Why have quota limit? Bcoz SEDA has limited funding. We pay only extra 1% on electricity bill for RE FIT rate. RE FIT rate is 3 times higher our residential electricity rate.

I read somewhere that inorder to supply 1kw to a house, TNB need to generate 3kw. Much of the energy lost at the transmiting and converting. If residential generate the electricity of it own, that save the TNB of 2kw. So why need funding?

Residential electricity is subsidy. I believe TNB don't get much profit from residential or probaly lost. If residential can generate it own electricity, TNB can transfer the much need to the commercial use which have better rate. Ain't this give better profit to TNB. So why to have quota?

Gov or TNB is subsidy our electricity. If residential generate it own electricity, TNB don't need to pay more subsidy. Can they use the subsidy to pay some portion for the FIT? That don't require our funding.

YTL generate power and sell to TNB. We are smaller scale of YTL. What rate do TNB given to YTL?