Or people will see the new Camry and think... wtf? I'm getting the old one.

Huh? Why isn't handling important? Someone has to drive the thing... if comfort is all that counts, go buy Citroen C5. Magic carpet ride.

Aging Camry? My conti (almost) base spec C segment Citroen from 2002 has 6 airbags, and would have ESP if I had anything but the smallest engine. That was a 45-50k RM car from 10 years ago (of course not here). The Toyota Yaris has 4 or 6 airbags, more are optional. The Aygo has 4 I think. Daihatsu Sirion 4 or 6. In other markets. For many, many, many years now. Toyota is ripping off Malaysians, it's just like that.

Someone at Toyota has to specially make ultra low spec Camrys with outdated gearboxes. How different can the US or JDM Camry be from the ASEAN one so that these parts don't fit? Actually, who is still producing 4 speed? That's like XBoxes coming with 30 GB HDDs... where the hell do they find those?

Current Camry is very, very old tech. The question is if the new one will be any better, and if you want a modern car you should probably just look for a Conti or Korean car. Old tech of course should be well proven.

Comfort? Citroen C5. Glides like a Rolls (uses the same but updated suspension as some Rolls Royce models).

Why are Korean cars taxed in a different manner? Or do you mean Naza?

Actually it is good that old Uncles like the Camry. They crash, they die, save money for pensions.

Not can't die, it's just less likely. That's good enough for me. If you do ridiculously dangerous things, yes, you'll die, no matter what car. But a proper race car, like a F1 car, will let you survive crashes which no normal car, not even an S class or something like that will let you survive. Likewise, a proper conti spec car will let you survive crashes that a downgraded Japanese meant for developing nations model won't.

Actually the Camry shouldn't be that bad. But would a same size conti probably protect you better, especially when there is a side impact? Absolutely, yes.

Also, a conti spec Japanese car is fine too. The problem is what they sell here, apart from some JDM models like the Prius.

Hm... first you say it's fate anyway, so it doesn't matter. Then you say one should drive safe? But it doesn't matter... or are you saying by driving fast etc. you are tempting fate? But aren't you tempting fate too when you drive an unsafe car, when you could afford a safe one? I just wish to extend this thinking that you shouldn't act silly or dangerous to the choice of cars. Is that hard to understand? Driving an unsafe car is like driving a bike without proper helmet and protective gear (fall down and it will hurt like hell, but obviously I know that in Malaysia those who ride a bike probably do it because they can't afford a car, thus an expensive protective suit is out of question too... it would be uncomfortable too).
Again, if you can't afford it, that is bad. But nothing you can do about it (although a safer not too old conti can be had for relatively little money, even models that are cheap to run). But many chose to buy a Toyota (exception Prius) despite there being safer options in the same class, for a comparable price.

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, I do hope that I can convince someone to care about what car they buy, to pick the safer choice (not financially, but in terms of protecting themselves and those who are in the car). Obviously that also means behaving properly, like not letting children run around in the car etc., they have to be wearing seatbelts and sit on children seats.

I have nothing against old people, just that sometimes they are not flexible. Toyota will keep ripping off Malaysians until Malaysians show them that they do not like it. Then will the cars improve. But I don't see it happening, unfortunately.

In Europe a Citroen Xsara 1.4, 2002, with 6 airbags. 3 stars EuroNCAP (that's the pre-facelift rating which had fewer safety features and some airbag malfunction during the crash, so ours probably should perform better). I think we paid 8000 Euro for the 1 year old car. I'm very satisfied with it, drives well even at high speeds, is comfortable. The engine could be stronger, obviously, but the manual gearbox makes the most out of it.

In Malaysia a 2005 Renault Kangoo, 2 airbags, 4 stars EuroNCAP. 5-6 year old car, paid 25k. Been relatively reliable and affordable to run, extremely spacious and has decent handling too (to me a good compromise between comfort and handling, although it is leaning on the stiffer side of things. It's a conti after all).

As you can see both budget cars, but both reasonably safe for their price and age. It can be done, even in Malaysia. From a D segment car I do expect much more than that though, especially considering the price and competition. I wouldn't consider the Jaguar XF either, despite being gorgeous and having a very lovely interior. But 4 stars is just not good enough if you pay so much.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: Mar 15 2012, 02:28 AM

Likely, yes. But the Camry is much, much much more expensive. In those price regions you can get cars that are much safer than the Kangoo, so the question is: Why not buy one of them? Find me a 25k car that is as safe as the Kangoo though. You simply go for the safest car that it in the price range that you are willing to pay. If it is a bit less safe, but has other advantages, ok. But the gap between a Camry and a Jetta/Passat for example will be pretty big. Or between a Fiesta sedan and the Camry.

If I had the budget for a safer car, I would have gone for it. Probably a C4 Picasso or something like that (I need an MPV), although the C4 isn't as practical as the Kangoo (sliding doors). And for Camry sort of money that would be the very last car I'd consider, even far behind the Koreans (ok, ahead of _some_ Chinese cars. Some Chinese D segment cars are likely to be safer than a Camry).

If people would stop buying the Camry for safety reasons, the next Camry would be as safe as the competition. Toyota has the tech. They CAN do it.

Btw., a brand new D segment which offers the same sort of protection (probably) as a 9 year old (probably much older, the facelift was rather cosmetical) design of a car that was built upon a B segment platform and that was meant to be a very affordable panel van? And you fail to see what's wrong with that? Times have changed, technologies have advanced. A lot.

No, I do realize that (although I think 2 stars would be a bit harsh), so yeah, perhaps the Camry is a bit safer. It better be, being 10 years newer and 2 segments higher, not to mention twice as expensive when new.

Again: It's about getting as much protection as the budget allows (or at least not much less than the best in that class and budget). And the Camry just doesn't.

In Europe people not buying cars that are far behind in terms of safety led to all cars being pretty safe. It would be nice if that would be the case here too, no? Even Camry fans would profit from not buying it, eventually, as Toyota would finally release a competitive product. Just imagine Toyota would bring the Euro spec Avensis here. All specs are identical in terms of safety and include VSC+ and 7 airbags. 6 speed manual, auto or CVT, Diesel engines too. Base engine is a 1.6 with 132 hp. Not on par with the Germans perhaps, but not awful either. It's a car that I'd actually consider. What's wrong with that? Btw., base spec is 22700 Euro, minus 19% tax is 18387. IIRC the maximum tax for a CBU car is 115% (or is it 105?), 39532 Euro. That is around RM 158128. Now, why exactly should we pay so much for the Camry? (If I got http://www.maa.org.my/info_duty.htm right). If it was produced in an ASEAN country it would only be 85% (or 75%) tax, thus RM 136063. It is also likely that they do make some profit when selling the car in Germany, so imagine how much profit they are making here.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: Mar 17 2012, 03:30 AM

I don't think it ever got tested using the Malaysian spec car. US spec probably equivalent to 4 or 5 current EuroNCAP stars, which is good, but that one is full of safety features. I mean... standard 10 airbags, but only USD 22000? If you go for a Conti you'll get a 5 star car... that wasn't downgraded, so it still is one. Who knows if they use different steels on the ASEAN Camry. Toyota likes to rob us and blames the taxes. The taxes are very high, there is no doubt about that, but somehow taxes for Toyotas seem to be higher than for other brands...

Hopefully the ASEAN NCAP starts soon, and hopefully it's not a joke. Then we can finally see how OUR cars, as they are sold here, perform. For now there is a lot of guessing involved, except for Contis that get the same specs as in Europe.

The Kangoo and Xsara aren't particularly safe cars. They are for what we paid for them, and the Xsara should protect me better when someone crashes into the side of the car (someone did once, no injuries. Had to replace the door though, totally wasted), other than that I'd expect the Malaysian Camry to be safer. BUT you can get a lot safer cars for the Camry price... at least from what we expect so far. I mean... I take it you like the Camry? Would you still think it's a good car and there is nothing wrong with buying it were it priced at 500k? Or would you rather buy a Lexus, BMW or Mercedes?

No VSC? So how can it have all you'd expect from a Passat? Besides the Passat can have adaptive suspension... press a button, it's comfy, press a button it's stiff and sporty. And the Passat has the next gen VSC. It has a radar guided cruise control, so it will drive as fast as the car in front of it. That car brakes, you brake, that car drives faster, you drive faster. The Passat parks itself, parallel parking and reverse too. It warns you when you leave the lane without indicating. It notices when you get tired and warns you. And many more. Toyota has all these features, but will they offer them?

@0300078: Hm? What not true?

I do hope the Camry will be every bit as good as the US one... it should be, considering the price.

If the highest spec Camry has the sort of specs you'd get from a Mondeo or Passat, then it's worth considering. After all you get some benefits from driving a Toyota. I'm curious, but I don't see Toyota offering good value for money here.

Those turbos (at least the ones from Ford and VW that I have driven) do have some lag... so under 2000 there is not much going on, then it shoots forward. Can be dangerous, but it's a big laugh to feel the turbo kick in. DSG is also very nice, however remember that it will still roll back when in D. I think it should have a hill start assist thing where you have to press the brakes hard, then the car applies the brakes until you touch the accelerator. It's different from a normal auto though.

I trust VW more than Kia, for now, especially because of their SC. I'd also scratch that boring and replace it with elegant and not flashy. VWs are nice cars to sit in, and the design ages nicely, while flash can wear off fast and be outdated. The Kia cee'd I once drove also wasn't on par with the Golf which is in the same class, although it was not a bad car, not at all (only had it for a couple of days though). It was cheaper than the Golf, so it's worth considering, especially when on a budget. I simply expect the K5 to be like that. Not as good, but cheaper. Worth considering.

Malaysians go after resale value, reliability and image. Those things are great (or perceived to be great) with Toyotas.

The car itself can't compete with the continental competition, even though it is better spec'ed (and generally better) car in Europe (as the Avensis) it does just ok. In America it does great, but I guess mostly because there the Camry comes with all the bells and whistles and safety features (+ very good crash test results) you'd expect AND it is competitively priced. Unfortunately the Malaysian Camry is anything but all of that.

I checked what is possible on the regular Passat, however those features may not be available here, so I admit it is a bit unfair. In other countries the Camry is a better car, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SATcfmH1fY&feature=related (You may want to skip ahead to get all the camera angles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzKhBHtAV3w&feature=related (How it looks like sitting inside the car)

Well, I drive French cars, although I'd seriously consider a Ford. Actually I hope to get to drive a new Focus Turnier soon...

I think people call the Camry garbage because over here Toyota tries to rip us off. They sell truly outdated cars at premium prices, and worst of all people are actually buying them. And why do you need to buy a Ferrari when you want good handling? A proper sedan can give you good handling too, combined with a good, relatively comfortable ride.

What I don't like is this buy sell buy sell buy sell mentality. To me that says you are buying something that isn't good, so you try to get rid of it soon to get something better. Well... why don't you buy something better in the first place then (as there are some in the same price range)? You could drive a new Kancil/Viva every year. Or you buy a better car in the first place and keep it a while. In the end if you go for the Viva you'll still just have a Viva, even if it is the latest generation it still won't be as good as the decent car you could have bought many years ago.

I do agree that after sales service is important, that's the reason why I wouldn't buy any computer but a Dell (unless I build it myself). Peace of mind and reliability... yes, not that unimportant perhaps, but Toyota seems a bit overrated.

If you want outdated tech... spend maybe 100k on a few year old conti, put the remaining 50k on a bank to pay for repairs (likely not to be used up, but even if, that's what that account is for). Get to drive a better, but just as modern/outdated car.


So you are paying just for the brand? Great. I'll take the off-brand one then, especially since Ford and VW are rather experienced in making cars.

@eng98: So many problems after less than 2 years?! Why exactly is Toyota having a good image?!

@sct: I'm not a big VW fan. I don't like their clutches, I think the ride is too uncomfortable. The engines and DSG are nice though, safety is good (as good as overseas Toyotas), build quality is decent, even if the QC is a bit... shoddy. But underspec Passat? No, they do not offer everything that is possible. But the Camry has a torque converter gearbox... 4 speed some more? Those were modern... 30 years ago. The world has moved on, the Passat uses a 7 speed DSG. Traction control and ESP (VSC for Toyota) are missing from the Toyota, features that are a standard in some B segment cars. 6 airbags (mh... 4, but cover the area of 6), again missing from the Camry it seems, again standard on at least one B segment car. 8 Auto adjusting bi xenon with curve lights on the Camry? The Camry tech was old 10 years ago. Now it is prehistoric. The new Yaris (Vios hatch) in Europe is much more modern than the Camry 2.0. I mean... what the ...? The only good thing about all of this is that any SC will know how to deal with the car. They are used to it anyway.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: Mar 26 2012, 01:23 AM

Yup, totally agree. Still ugly, but a decent car. Or US spec Camry, also fine. Even Japan spec should be fine. But I don't think so, I'd be really ö

Mh... reliability. I know a brand new VW (CBU) where one of the speakers fell down, and several other QC problems. They do all they can to fix it though. I hope that is an exception, the service seems very good though, friendly, professional and no long waits. Not used to not waiting from Renault/Nissan. A Camry is outdated tech, so it _should_ be more reliable. IMHO Toyota don't really deserve their reputation anymore though, maybe they are still a bit more reliable, but the price you pay for that bit of reliability is (IMHO) too high.

Actually car engines get rather old. But usually they are updated. BMW introduced an engine in 1961, it was used until 1987. Started with 75 hp, ended up delivering 1350 hp.

I think in other countries they go after brands too, to a certain degree. The mobbing hell a school kid in Europe may have to go through just because he or she doesn't wear branded clothes can be extreme.

IMHO iconic doesn't really matter when tech, only with design. That's probably what he meant. The Toyota FJ Cruiser, which nods to the original Land Cruiser? That's cool. Or one that does to the iconic AE86 (the GT 86 does, but looks totally different). A Rolls Royce has to look like a Rolls Royce. And it's not like Toyota is rubbish, it's just that in Malaysia, well, they don't treat us the way we deserve, especially being as loyal as Malaysians are. But I see that backfire slowly, once the Uncles can't drive anymore.

(Mercedes doesn't really pay a lot of tribute to older models, IMHO, sometimes to the SL300 perhaps, other than that though...?).

In terms of tech a Merc is usually rather modern.

@landlily98: The US spec Camry is an entirely different beast. Lets have a look, shall we? Base spec Camry. 2.5 with 6 speed auto. Not flashy at all, no spoilers, no fog lights. 16" Steel rims. Basic aircon, rather basic radio, has cruise control, has VSC, TC, ABS, BA, whiplash injury lessening seats, 10 airbags (!?!), tire pressure monitors, daytime running lights. Anything that makes the car safer is there. And a relatively decent gearbox. Here you get all sorts of useless rubbish (bodykit, nice big rims, ...), but what may save your life... nope. I mean... I can always add a spoiler and bodykit myself, change to nicer rims, ... I will not be able to upgrade the 2 airbags to 10 though. I really don't think the Malaysian spec Camry would sell at all in the US.

0300078 is just showing that he is considering the Camry if it offers good value for money. When I buy I'm open to (almost?) every brand. If Toyota has a car that is good, affordable, safe, then sure I'll consider it. If I find it to be better than the competition at this price point (and it doesn't make sense to spend a bit more, I wouldn't get a much better car) I'll buy it. Hell, I kind of like the GT 86!

This post has been edited by kadajawi: Mar 27 2012, 09:10 PM

CKD or made in ASEAN countries doesn't make a difference tax wise, I thought?

In USA the Camry is modern and comes with almost everything that you'd get from a Passat here. Even more airbags than that. And it's cheap. And trouble free. So yea, obviously a good deal. Here it sells cause there are more SC, the resale value is better (could change, I'll be LMAO then), and of course the brand. Toyota makes competitive cars in markets where they have to. Here they don't.

Btw., the Avensis isn't doing terribly well in Germany (should be so so...), even though it is competitively spec'ed and priced. The Passat is the second (or third) best selling car though, only beaten by the Golf which like sells 2x as good, and selling just as good as the Polo.

Can you enlighten me on the restrictions? To my knowledge there are no restrictions at all. Every car is taxed the same, regardless of where it is made. Otherwise why would German cars generally cost more than their competitors? Even the cheap ones?

Btw I sit in a car park in Germany right now. I don't see even one Japanese car. There is one Daewoo though. Mostly VW, Opel or Ford (mind you this is basically Fords home town, many Ford employees live here). Earlier I did see one Aygo.
Ok, just drove back, there were a few old Japanese cars (Primera... Ad Resort as sedan, old Micra/March from the 80s or early 90s and a newer one, late 90s early 00s) and a Yaris. Also a few Nissan SUVs, they seem to do rather well. No big sedan like the Avensis though (well, to be fair there is only the Avensis, the Mazda 6 and the Honda Accord in that segment, against very strong competitors). The Yaris is doing somewhat ok here, though not as good as the Fiesta is doing in Malaysia I'd say.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: Apr 12 2012, 07:22 PM

More like wannabe sports car if you ask me. http://www.f30driver.com/forum/showthread.php?t=912342 This is how you do it. No nonsense racing car, no fake diffuser and rear wing it doesn't need (and the Beemer is probably a lot faster than the Camry...).

Haha, they advertise with all the features the Malaysian Camry will NOT get. What a slap in the face! To tease like that. When you buy a Mondeo etc. you'll get a pretty much European spec car, and not the downgraded ASEAN car.

This post has been edited by kadajawi: May 20 2012, 09:59 PM

And... in what ways is leather a good choice for a car dashboard in Malaysia? I mean, yea it looks good and premium, but will it last? I have seen a maybe 8 or 9 year old Jag with totally cracked leather seats. Now imagine the dashboard all cracked up...

Also... why leather wrapped dashboard? How does that help? Wouldn't a few more airbags make more sense? The Camry in other markets has 10 airbags in the baseline model. We get... 2. But hey, as long as the dashboard is wrapped in leather...