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 Are property prices going to up further? V3

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hazairi
post Oct 15 2011, 05:03 PM

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QUOTE(zuiko407 @ Oct 15 2011, 12:58 PM)
from your statement, you really don't understand what's the real story behind the US crisis.
*
well, i assume u fully understand and expert then.. Tell me why Ben Bernanke said that US property crisis will not happen back in 2005. smile.gif
hazairi
post Oct 15 2011, 11:50 PM

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QUOTE(zuiko407 @ Oct 15 2011, 10:20 PM)
Well, u have to put some effort to find out the interesting story, u will get your answer and find out not only Ben Bernanke said so, why AIA in deep shit! Whose decision to tie-up the mortgage with insurance coverage! and the bank easily approve the sub-prime mortgage!
Is a trap setup by a group of big guy, if u wanna know more, just make a phone call to any friend in U.S bcos this's not secret anymore after the crisis and all American are knowing this.
Don't call me expert again, I'm just a normal person who earned million ringgit from property investment
*
Exactly, that was my point.. smile.gif
The big guys know that this is coming, but they won't tell us coz if they do, the momentum of the prices will lose. It is their own personal interest to not telling us the truth.

Same here in Malaysia! The juggernauts will say our property market is good and will not burst!
But the facts has spoken!

My mini-article on why right now aint the right time to invest in property:

http://hazairi-jay.blogspot.com/2011/09/wh...y-property.html
hazairi
post Oct 16 2011, 01:26 AM

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QUOTE(kh8668 @ Oct 16 2011, 12:27 AM)
So naive...

you thought buying property like share, today buy tomorrow can sell?

Overall, I am pretty positive to Malaysia Property Market.  smile.gif
*
Read the facts. It has spoken. It's whether to accept it or stay in denial..
hazairi
post Oct 16 2011, 02:55 AM

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QUOTE(kh8668 @ Oct 16 2011, 01:45 AM)
since you talk about debt....share also
individual total deposits in banks:

RM441,937.816 million

m'sia total population said 28 mil include (malaysian + foreginers; babies + adults)

each persons bank deposit = RM15,800

average household size said 4 persons per household

RM15,800 x 4 = RM63,200 per household.

ok or not ok?
*
LOL. And the average house price in Malaysia is also RM63k? Get real..
hazairi
post Oct 16 2011, 10:23 PM

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QUOTE(kh8668 @ Oct 16 2011, 09:21 PM)
average household debt about 76k ..lOL

so deposit 63k for each household....okay what.
63kx10 = average household can afford 630k worth house.
*
Don't just count on savings.
Try look at the stat of GDP.

FYI:

GDP per capita:

2007 - RM14.5k
2008 - RM15.2k
2009 - RM13.8k
2010 - RM14.7k

Total Household debt:

2007 - roughly RM400 Billion
2010 - roughly RM550 Billion

Our GDP is not increasing, but household debt is increasing. Even BNM is quite worried now.

The simple facts has spoken. Either you live with it or live in denial.. smile.gif
hazairi
post Oct 17 2011, 01:56 AM

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QUOTE(ManutdGiggs @ Oct 17 2011, 12:37 AM)
No worries. One Q. R u gonna sell when it's not up to de price u wan? So I stil dun think it's gonna drop in price.

U r very rite tat developers ll build further away fr city. Lots a developers now focus at places like kajang, semenyih, rawang, bangi, etc etc.
*
If the interest rate goes high, there will be a few who won't afford to pay the monthly installment. They were paying $500 a month. Now they have to pay $1,000 a month because interest rates are 12 percent. What happens? They can't make the payment. What do they do? They sell the house, or they try to hang in there for a while until the house gets repossessed, and the bank sells it. Either way, the house is getting sold. The house then goes on the market, adding to the supply glut of homes for sale. It's not just this one family that's affected, because interest rates affect everyone. Suddenly, a large group of homeowners can't make the payments all at once.
hazairi
post Oct 17 2011, 09:22 PM

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QUOTE(ManutdGiggs @ Oct 17 2011, 02:38 AM)
Assumption is alwiz assumption. 12% was a history long ago. I've no idea if it's gonna happen again or it could b higher than tat sooner or later, or never.

1 more Q, r u ready to face it or runaway fr wat u assumed ll happen? If u hav chosen to live w it, then b a man n face it. Plan A or B or C. Whichever plan u hav. But if u hav chosen to stay away, actually u r living in denial. I would rather face it. No matter wat ll happen, s long s v r ready n well prepared or equipped, I dun c any big prob. Econ cycles come n go. 1984, 1997, 2002/3, 2007, or later, those who r not prepared for raining day ll suffer. Those who r smart enuf ll enjoy n growth their wealth even more. opportunities r for those who r prepared for it.

Life is short. Few 10 yrs of life r not much. Do wat u think is worth doin when v r stil capable. Worries ll only make our life suffer.

Eg. I would rather live 60-70 yrs n eat wateva I like. I ll not live 100 yrs eating food I dun like. In tis case, I hav planned well for my family members. They ll enjoy de fruits when I'm no longer w them. If v plan well, it's not de matter when r v buying or selling, it's where about v r investing.

No obligation boss. Just IMHO.
*
exactly. The right strategy I guess is to keep as much cash and invest it to a more reliable institute such as FD or ASB. When the recession comes, you'll have many cheap bargains to spend your cash on.. smile.gif
hazairi
post Oct 17 2011, 09:33 PM

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QUOTE(kh8668 @ Oct 17 2011, 09:47 AM)
hehe..what make cost to do business increase? rental is only part of it. Labour cost (import duty per head taxable by government) also part of it. the other factors, can also think of them lo, utilities, marketing, printing, comissions, etc.


Added on October 17, 2011, 9:54 am

LOL...GDP is just like concurrent income statement. also we need to see how stong the financial support (backup) on individual.

we only can analyse the simple average here. further indept info, we need more accurate data.
*
QUOTE(kidmad @ Oct 17 2011, 10:03 AM)
1) Again, that is overall in Malaysia. How many are contributing to salary tax atm? only 10% of the people, it means the living standard is still FREAKING LOW! So you tell me, the other 90% of the people with such high living cost now days and yet such puny pays, is there anyway they can live without a debt around them?

2) Most of those who went into bankruptcy, it's not due to Home Loan repayment. The percentage had spoken, those with personal loan, credit card, hire purchase and business loan are the contributing factor.  cool2.gif

*You should choose to fix the problem in the first place. Bringing down the property prices will still leave us in denial.


Added on October 17, 2011, 10:12 am

GREAT, in this case we can join the others who go bankrupt! oh wait i forgotten to tell you, i am only paying 1/5 of my current nett income to serve my home loan repayment. I guess it's not a problem for me if it goes up to 12%. But what happen if i lose my job? Well.. if it really happen most likely you would lose yours as well. Let's plan together to curb this issue.

"!!!Wait... my job opportunity to wash the toilet and clean the rubbish had been taken by the foreign workers... God Damn!"

*This is one exact example if we do not do the right thing. Now that foreign workers are filling all the spot, i am expecting the employment rate to go down as well for the locals. disappointed with the government management.

Face the fact bro, everyone needs to plan for themselves. If you fail to plan you plan to fail. As simple as that. Those who are doing good in such situation what makes you think that you would be better than them when time comes? I believe most of us who are capable had already planned for the worst to make sure if there is anything happen, i would still have a backup plan. Question is.. Do you have one?

Paper money value is dropping everyday, your RM1 might be RM0.10 next day you know. By the time with 12% interest most likely my net income will be much higher compared to what i have now.

*No one is that dumb, % of interest will increase gradually if it really happen like what you've said, the government is asking for trouble. from 6.5 >>> 12??? well they are asking for RIOTS in whole nation if they do so.
*Those who are renting will not have a place to rent, those who are still serving their loan most likely will just bite on to 1 property and work their ass off in repayment.
*
-Home loan may not be the number 1 reason for bankruptcy as it is a mortgage. If you can't pay it, they will just sell your house, plus home loan interest rate is not that high compare to personal loan or credit card.

-Exactly. We have to plan. And the plan now is stay away from property market at the moment.

-12% was an exaggerated figure, but my point is, the interest rate will go up soon.
hazairi
post Oct 17 2011, 10:22 PM

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QUOTE(Fazab @ Oct 17 2011, 10:06 PM)
Rates did shoot up to >11% in 1998 very suddenly (yes, almost overnight), but that was because our govt need to fend off a currency attack.

Fortunately, it was quickly re-adjusted down due to 'various reasons' (the rest is history.....)

But the lesson to learn : - that was all it took to spook the market - property price did drop after that b'cos people got fearful.

Only few 'new' launches in 1998 - 2002, and they were all below pre-1997 prices.
So, 2012/2013, will history repeat?

Do we have a trigger coming up? Something that will spook the market badly?

If it does happen, I am worry that it will be much worse,
b'cos unlike 12 years ago, nowadays many people living on credit.
*
Exactly bro. The fact has spoken. Currently the household debt is around RM500 billion!


Added on October 17, 2011, 10:25 pmThe only reason property prices went up drastically is because of this easy, cheap loans!
In reality we are heading towards doomsday..

This post has been edited by hazairi: Oct 17 2011, 10:25 PM
hazairi
post Oct 17 2011, 10:43 PM

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QUOTE(kh8668 @ Oct 17 2011, 10:30 PM)
so stubborn!!!!

Please notice me when property price down 30%-50% or 90%

LOL...but only good one then notice me.  nod.gif
*
QUOTE(ManutdGiggs @ Oct 17 2011, 10:30 PM)
Wat ll happen if everyone is able to repay. 20yrs later all of us ll enjoy de fruits???
*
QUOTE(kh8668 @ Oct 17 2011, 10:33 PM)
lol..he will show you household debt 2,000.0 billions in 2031.
*
Ok, enough of me repeating the household debt. Now let's look into disposable income. Now read this:

"Looking at the problem from the ratio of household debt to disposable income, this ratio is 140.4 per cent for Malaysia, one of the highest in the world; above that of Singapore at 105.3 per cent, USA at 123.3 per cent and Thailand at 52.7 per cent in 2009. This means that the loans taken by each household in Malaysia is on average 1.4 times more than its household income.

Since both the household debt service ratio and the household debt to disposable income are average figures, in reality it will be those in the lower income group who are at greater risk of not being able to pay off the monthly instalments.

Spending using borrowed funds can boost economic growth but it can also slow the economy when households are forced to restrain spending in order to service their loans. Thus there are unfavourable policy implications and economic impact when household debt keeps rising."

Conclusion:

- Malaysian household debt to disposable income, ratio is 140%
- Loans taken by each household in Malaysia is on average 1.4 times more than it's household income.

Just imagine your salary is RM1000 per month but you hv to pay monthly instalment loans of RM1400. The debt will keep on pumping. That's the reality that is happening to us all. It's a fact. Now please give me some facts that can deny my theory.. smile.gif
hazairi
post Oct 17 2011, 11:00 PM

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QUOTE(kh8668 @ Oct 17 2011, 10:55 PM)
mind to share with us what is your household debt - income ratio?
*
It's doesn't matter what my ratio or your ratio or a few other ratios of ppl here. Let's talk about the whole country.
I may say that i can sustain it and so are you, but the majority out there, the stats will speak for them..
hazairi
post Oct 18 2011, 09:10 PM

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QUOTE(R o Y @ Oct 18 2011, 12:58 AM)
Actually Household Debt to Disposable Income ratio refers to the ration between Household Debt to Annual Household Income ratio.

So a household with RM24k annual disposable income (RM2k per month) has a total debt of RM33.6k.

Assuming this is a credit card balance, the 5% minimum repayment = RM1680 per month

Assuming this is a car loan with 4 years balance, then its RM700 per month.

Assuming this is a housing loan with another 15 years balance, this its about RM250 per month.

Malaysian household debt is about 50% housing loans and 25% hire-purchase.

While the ratio of 140% is quite high, you really shouldnt make wild conclusions without understanding how the figures are calculated.
*
thanks for the correction. I was also thinking about something went wrong with my calculation LOL.

Anyway, the point is, our household debt is very2 high and it's in a critical zone now.


Added on October 18, 2011, 9:11 pm
QUOTE(ManutdGiggs @ Oct 18 2011, 06:50 AM)


My advise. Dun b de lower income grp lo. Haha. Joking only. Not tat easy rite. Yeah tats rite. Work hard. Work for ur dream. Being too pessimistic ll not bring u any good. Buddy, relax, even if it's really crash, s I said, prepare for it n face it. It ll get over.
*
Exactly, I'm preparing for it. I'm piling up my cash to wait for the big bargain.. smile.gif


This post has been edited by hazairi: Oct 18 2011, 09:11 PM
hazairi
post Oct 18 2011, 10:01 PM

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user posted image

we are reaching it's peak..


Added on October 18, 2011, 10:07 pm
QUOTE(ManutdGiggs @ Oct 18 2011, 09:53 PM)
Good luck boss. Dun forget to acknowledge me if u hav any good offer.

Tq
*
Not around the corner but maybe another 1-2 years to reach it's peak and the price will stagnant for a few months then BOOM!

This post has been edited by hazairi: Oct 18 2011, 10:07 PM
hazairi
post Oct 20 2011, 12:17 AM

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QUOTE(twincharger07 @ Oct 19 2011, 01:37 AM)
The difference between bolehland and US is that in US, loan are given to unqualified owners without assessing their repayment capability...
US government start giving guarantee to lenders to lend money to any tom dxck and harry..
Investment products are marketed as AAA rating and sold to other countries to fund their citizen's home loan...
Since the citizen has no obligation and just default when they cant repay..
When owners start defaulting their loan, it creates a ripple effect from US to other countries who bought their bad assets..

Americans are always live in debts, much more higher debt ratio compare to us.. it is shocking to see they willing to default their homeloan 1st but maintaining other debts to fund their lifestyle..

It is very different compare to Asians who position our home as the center of our life.. we can sell our cars but not our house, but the American did the other way round..

No doubt job opportunity in US is alarming.. a major factor is that all the manufacturing and outsourcing are done in low cost country which are asian countries.. Malaysia is a good example... there are plenty of jobs here bcos all this giant MNC set up their company in this low cost country, those are American companies, but majority of their emplyees are non-Americans..

Another factor that set us apart from the US is that Bolehland's bank are still being strictly ruled, credit profiles are still strictly examined, unlike the yankee's practising cowboy style...

so is Msia going into subprime?
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QUOTE(Apscen @ Oct 19 2011, 09:16 AM)
very good insight, that's the basic rules in property market, i tend to agreed!


Added on October 19, 2011, 9:31 am
to be honest, i still have the bank assessing my loan strict and tight as before, really can't see anything similar to US happening here. maybe anyone can share which bank has start given loan without asking your salary slip, your epf statement, didn't check your CCRIS, than we know bank is doing monkey stuffs, else for those still looking a home, please go ahead, expensive is only on those new launching, there is still so much affordable subsales house around.

IMO, regret one time is enough, dun regret second time.
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QUOTE(Fazab @ Oct 19 2011, 10:12 AM)
If you go back and read Post #2084 Page 105 of this Thread you will find that I have given my opinion on this, and I agree with your analysis.
Full blown subprime won't happen here, or for the matter, any other country, they will be real stupid to repeat such a clear mistake.

I merely want to share with the writer that  attenuations to Factor 1, 2 and 6, at least, are already happening.

So there is a possibility of a short term mini subprime, where overleveraged people are forced to offload property they can't hold.
No offense to the younger generation, but I do see a lot of them use 'creative borrowing' to buy props for flipping.
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QUOTE(Fazab @ Oct 19 2011, 11:49 AM)
Repeat :  market is moved by the MASSES. Not one or two people.

(just like what we say here is unlikely to affect market. how many people read LYN anyway. so no need to get excited)

Repeat :  what is VP last/this year was purchased in 2007/2009 - these are the 'first wave' purchasers.
Yes, they have holding power, and we do not expect problem from them.
What is worrying are the 'second wave' purchasers, who jumps in later to flip when they see opportunity 'that must not be missed'.
These are the 'creative borrowers' who may or may not get burn.

repeat : I am hoping there is soft landing, and no one gets burn too badly.

repeat : until someone can provide data that there are no or insignificant number of such reckless borrowers,
perhaps we should not choose to ignore this factor, just because it does not fit our thinking.

We believe what we want. I believe there are many such people that's why I worry.

You can be optimistic. I still respect your stand.
*
Most of you guys will counter the Malaysian property bubble by saying "Malaysia has a stricter rules on giving loans than US". When you look at the figures of our household debt vs GDP and disposable income, it shows that the industry will soon run out of ppl who is qualified for loans. Reasons? :

1) The total debt is at all-time high
2) BNM gonna make a stricter rules
3) Our income is not improving or can be said stagnant

Example: Let's just say since 2005, constantly the banks are approving 500 millions amount of loans per year. Every year it went smoothly and the developers will develop new areas in hoping that people will constantly taking that amount of loans to buy properties. Suddenly BNM realizes that the debt is getting high and the income is stagnant. What will happen? Instead of every year the banks are approving 500 mills loans it dwindles to 400 mills, 300 mills and so forth.
The developer's construction is nearly completed BUT suddenly the expected 500 mills loans aren't there and the demands for the houses automatically decreases. With the inclusion of the external factor of the global economy meltdown, the unemployment rate will increase, thousands can't pay their loans and baamm!

Conclusion:
Household debt getting high + GDP is not increasing + BNM making stricter rules + External influence of global economy meltdown = GG


Added on October 20, 2011, 12:39 amRead this:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Let me summarize the news:

-unsold properties in Malaysia is increasing
-Checks on developments completed this year (2010) also show that vacancy rates remain at 50 per cent or higher


Be prepared guys.. smile.gif



This post has been edited by hazairi: Oct 20 2011, 12:44 AM
hazairi
post Oct 22 2011, 02:49 AM

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QUOTE(realcyma @ Oct 20 2011, 11:05 AM)
your quoted news is at end of 2010, NOT this year!  the price rocket rises is in the first half of this year.

So, according to your "news".  what do you want to say?
"house price rising is due to properties unsold" or "house price rising is due to vacancy rates remain at 50%"

my opinion on your "news"...
1. simply quote the unsold rate is meaningless.  the data did not classified or grouped by region and area.
i dont have hard figures on hand, but according to my observation, all the high price house are all sold out before launching, or shortly after launched.  (That is before built up)
there are some unsuccessful project/house can not be sold, and keep on unsold, and even price dropping.  but, these are all lower rank, and "no body wants" "no one care" projects.

2. at 2010, the house completed at the SAME year is 50% vacancy.
it is very normal, isn't it?
you get the key, finish the red tape, do the renovation, pick the lucky date to move in, some people do it slowly, need more than a year. I feel it is very normal and common.
In my opinion, if the "no body wants" "no one care" projects are all sold out, that is the time called "housing bubble"
*
1. House price rising due to 'cheap' loans.. Don't talk about your 'observation' give me some 'facts' pls..

2. No, not normal. If you already bought it, it will go down to the stat. Plus, if you were saying about the lagness of the buying process, the 2009 buyers would already normalize it.

hazairi
post Oct 22 2011, 11:25 AM

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Actually that one is referring to your speculation without facts quote:

QUOTE
it is very normal, isn't it?
you get the key, finish the red tape, do the renovation, pick the lucky date to move in, some people do it slowly, need more than a year. I feel it is very normal and common.


It was like u were saying dat the vacancy is becoz they needed more than a year for the renovation or pick the lucky date lol..

This post has been edited by hazairi: Oct 22 2011, 11:27 AM
hazairi
post Oct 24 2011, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(kh8668 @ Oct 24 2011, 10:40 AM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
The fact has spoken guys.

Either u prepare for it or just live in denial.. nod.gif
hazairi
post Oct 31 2011, 05:01 PM

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Latest news:

KL faces property glut as economy bites


» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Like I said million times already, be prepared guys.. smile.gif


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