Greetings ,

This topic is to help me on my current research and I would be glad for you all to share some positive comments and ideas .

Let me cut to the chase , we're living on a planet called Earth .

And Earth is located in a galaxy called Milky Way .

Outside The Milky Way consist of billion of other galaxies all living in what we call Universe

Well since planets and galaxies have boundaries , what about the universe ?

What is beyond the beyond ?



So yeah , that's just showing the so called '' X '' units of galaxies . Imagine the frame of the picture is the universe .

That's just to illustrate my idea on how universe looks like . But in reality how on earth does a universe look like ? What is the shape of a universe ?

Do we expect like an invisible wall you find in old classic video games where those are the places where you cannot cross ?

Please share some opinions ? Professional opinions are very much welcomed !
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Warm up your ideas with this article


This post has been edited by x-199Tx: Jun 27 2011, 11:07 PM

ancient sages say liau...look within u son, and you shall discover the whole universe.

But its killing my curiousity . People mention whole universe . Length of whole universe ?

Lets say a cube box 5x5x5 . No matter how you describe it , it's still a 5x5x5 box which you cannot deny the fact . Unless you squash the box is a whole different matter .

Nobody knows to date if there is a boundary exists & what is 'outside' the universe. Scientists only know that the observable universe is expanding at a fast pace.

Okay , so let's get back to the stage point . Everything you see has an outside right ? But how bout universe ?

How far can the universe expand ? Infinite should start from somewhere ?

Like how far is far ? How big is big ?

It's like big and far doesn't exist in universe . Any measurement does not exist in that case ?

Also universe beginning theory was the Big Bang Theory right ? If let say there was a big bang , whats beyond and before the big bang ?

an anology:

first there was no computer. then u buy all the separate parts and put them together to form a computer. if u understand the anology, you will realise that beyond the computer there isnt a bigger computer surrounding it, but something totally unrelated to the computer - a human an idea and some cash.

Our ideas of what the universe is is merely restricted to our knowledge of whats inside it....because whats outside it will be totally different.

This post has been edited by teongpeng: Jun 27 2011, 11:13 PM

Yes true . It has to be beyond what we know now and it's called imagination ..

Albert Einstein said that Imagination is more important than knowledge . Let's try applying that now ..

So forumers , any constructive ideas ?

First, you must differentiate 'observable universe' & universe (whole) itself.

Our science today can only give a rough figure of the observable universe at around 14 billion parsecs radius, making it a diameter of about 28 billion parsecs. Therefore no one can accurately tell you the size of the universe, that is if we assume the universe is finite (has an outside, in layman term). However there are scientists gauge the lower boundary of the universe diameter size at about 76 billion parsecs, assuming the universe is finite & various cosmic variables.

So even the universe size itself we humans are unsure of, let alone what is outside the universe. Hence we can only speculate & guess. One particular popular example is outside the universe is another 'universe-like space' filled with multiverses (parallel universes), however this will spread a lot of debate whether if parallel timeline is possible in the first place.

Try to read more articles on the net, there is a lot of discussion & information about it.

i think its a little more complex than just understanding the spatial aspects which is basically the limit of what science can produce.

I don't think we can ever really know what is outside of the universe, like a RAM module in a computer will never 'know' about the human user outside of the addressable and detectable confines of the PC.

For all we know, anything outside of the universe may be devoid of mass, energy, dimension (space) or even time therefore of no consequence or relevant to the universe itself.

Parallel universes.

Well, technically, parallel universes coexist with our universe rather than being located in a different place altogether. We don't sense the presence of parallel universes around us because the other universes' strings oscillate at different frequencies from ours (Google "String Theory").

Right , a parallex universe .. possibility the chances are high ..

@Luftwacko so its a never ending story ?

Like if we look at an algae , microscope it and imagine we're like them . What are the chances that we are also microorganisms of a much larger based creatures ?

Call this over thinking but do you think that microorganisms such as an algae has a life form like how we are ? Maybe not to have technology or living creatures you find on earth eg. animals

plants .

Something like if you guys watch Men in Black where the galaxy was on a cat collar . What are the chances of this idea might be sensible ?

More opinions please ?

this is interesting picture


Attached thumbnail(s)

Really good information there. Could the microorganism theory fit better ?

If you see the universe from a computer point of view, you can see that theoretically there's no limit in it's size.

Imagine the world sits within a computer system, consist of bits & bytes (just like atoms in real world), computer is running a "Universe" where we are located, we have no access to another universe, but at the same time the computer can also run another "universe" as another application as such we have 2 universe running at the same time but not related to each other. Then in 1 of the universe the computer can fast forward, pause, rewind the universe and people like us running inside the software will not realize it as we are just programs within another program. Also within 1 universe that's running it still continue to expand and getting more "add ons", the other universe may also be running on another totally different OS, which means all the rules of physic in where we are living in doesn't apply to that, concept may be the same.

And if the programming has bugs, 1 universe might trigger the computer hardware to malfunction & cause other universe to collapse all together. If the hardware has backup it might be able to revert back to previous state, if not then it's goodbye to these universe. And the best part is, we'll never know when it happens!

And by now you can guess who god is, yes it's the user sitting behind the computer & doing the programming & adding more hardware so that the universe can continue to grow.

Zoom out again will there be another god outside of that user's universe? In the end it becomes infinite.



This post has been edited by advocado: Jun 28 2011, 10:42 AM

Yes but then the computer is once again running the whole system . Even if theres another universe its all being run by computer . In other words the computer is the boundary .

Something related to share: Scale of the Universe

Makes one humble, really.

The visible universe is a sphere.

Therefore the universe looks like a ping pong ball.

From the inside.

But without the plastic wall/boundary.

And the boundary is painted completely and perfectly black so that you cannot see past it.

Or even see the boundary itself.

And the boundary is expanding at the speed of light.

The universe is bound by the Computer, but the computer is capable of upgrading itself & adding more programmes itself. Also there might be many computers running different universe, maybe 2 computers running same universe but come out with different outcomes. These computers might be running within another computer, resulting infinity.

I'm taking computer as a concept, it's not meant to make you think we are actually living in a computer system.

BTW: the observable universe is bound by light speed multiplied by the age of the universe.

What makes you think the shape of a universe is a ping pong ball ?

Would be great if you show me source

I've got another question then , since blackhole absorbs light would that make it the ultimate of ultimate ?

---

Added on June 29, 2011, 8:24 amYes really good one there , but I'm still VERY curious whats beyond that universe ? I'm sure at some point there must be a boundary . IF there is once again , what is beyond the boundary of that boundary ? and it goes on

---

Added on June 29, 2011, 8:33 amOhh , but I guess I just hate the effect on infinity . So then if infinity at least the universe has to start from one point .

This post has been edited by x-199Tx: Jun 29 2011, 08:33 AM

"If you see the universe from a computer point of view"- yes...may also can be describe/ compare with computer hardware (capacity) & software (time & space, shortcut..).

& yes...all the theory r based on our imaginary....

Theory= Logic + imaginary.

Regard the universal..maybe can divide by : space, dimesion, time, what inside & what outside??

here is my little view:

1) dimension: the univel maybe no boundary....it may like sphare...where u start...& where u end...end= start. recycle.

2) space & timeline: little bit to talk...may rise to another question..
many years ago i saw doremon comic- one of the part very interesting & curios:

story start with nobita enter his room upstair, doremon not there, then nobita saw a magic gun in his table. His took the gun & go out to show to giant & sisuka.

" when his downstair, nobita heard a noise of (own voice coming from his upstair room - the table drawer of his room got time machine) crying, seeking doremon"....

but nobita ignore the noise......

later & after his bing bang Giant with the gun, giant become stone & broke into a pieces after fall. Sisuka crying...nobita very scary & run back get help from doremon....

after seeking doremon...but doremon not there...so, nobita only can use the time machine in his drawer to travel back the time to stop "the previous" nobita who baru masuk billik.

Final picture show that: crying Nobita (who travel back with time machine) in the upstair room seeking for doremon...& nobita who took the gun already in downstair.

Here my question: When is the first time incident happen (means, nobita after took his gun & downstair..his never heard his own noise or crying). the first boundary/ the person who start this scenario?

the story start with involve nobita in recycle space, timeline & dimension. this scenario keep repeat..repeat & repeat.......how many time this scenario happen?? 1 time 1milion time or infinity time...??

r nobita stuck in the time & space/ dimension...forever...like us?? who can pull nobita out of the dimension??.

How ( how this scenario happe), when (what the first time), where (the first location doremon drop the gun..where is doremon...),who can help (nobita itself or doremon), What ( happen if : keep repeat/ or some one stop it??), Why ( why the craetor create this scenario.)...

countless question & answer..all we can say: maybe doremon.../ maybe nobita....maybe we can do like this...maybe this & that..????

"maybe" a theory based of our imaginary & logical...

Sorry for my poor english, & cos another question. this scenario i still remenber it cleary...cos very interesting..until now still seed for answer. i tot this issue very similar to your topic..just for share.

Here is some movie like the concept above...just for share, not promoting.

13th Floor 1999 (.simulator create simulator...but the ending can be argue)
Run lola Run 1998 & The Girl Who Leapt Through Time (2006) / the sound of thunder 2004 ( each second, can change a result..little adjustment can create great impact to public/ history may change)

dream - Imaginary - concept - exploratory - experince - knowledge - logically - civilization.

---

Added on June 29, 2011, 10:33 am+1 ...another issue may related to this topic...jangka sudut..

let say: 1 bulatan got 360degree....so we start in 0 degree (point A)..the we move to 1 degree (point B)...u may notice if nothing diferrence...but imagine u use it to ukur the jarak based on your degree...is totally diference.

(like triangle concept) star with: 0 point where 2 point (A & B) meet togethe...then u adjust it to 1 degree & move the point (A & B) forward to 1 km...after 1 km.... jarak between point A & B maybe 500-750m or more. Note: just only 1 degree diference.....the result very impact..

but both point maybe meet again in certain coordinate...why??..cos earth r sphere...

is about concept why...univel no boundary......

haha..just my view...

This post has been edited by peace230: Jun 29 2011, 10:34 AM

Just take it as, as infinite as our brain can compute. It's too huge, way beyond our comprehension.

Using existing theories and observations, we 'see' that the universe as an ever-expanding entity. Perhaps one day, a strange cosmic occurrence, or invention of craft traveling at light speed, may alter the way we look at space.

I understand you . THAT is a really really really interesting question . Those of you don't get it , read the highlighted part .

This I find really disturbing yet it challenges your brain . But again , that's if a time machine exist . Anyone can help contributing to his question and also to this topic ?

Sorry can't help on his question because me myself has also been thinking bout this .

---

Added on June 29, 2011, 1:48 pmUnfortunately matt , I would try not to take this as beyond our comprehension . Theories like these always start contradicting religion but would like to keep religion out of this topic 100% .

Also in other galaxies is it possible to find another us ? In another dimension like for example another of matt85 in a completely different world .

Here is an example

matt85 -> Lives in a world where fish can fly*Andromeda
matt85 -> Lives in a world where dogs can fly*Bode's Galaxy
matt85 -> Lives in a world where humans can fly*Mayall's Object
matt85 -> Lives in a world where its located in the Milky Way on a planet called Earth

These codes are names of galaxies founded by scientist

This post has been edited by x-199Tx: Jun 29 2011, 01:48 PM

Go check out Through the Wormhole... Its a TV documentary series. Perhaps check out Season 2, Episode 2 - Is there an edge to the universe?

Doesn't really answer the question on what's beyond the universe or even whether there is an edge to the universe or is it perpetual, for lack of a better work . It's probably better if you watch it yourself. I am by no means an expert on this matter but I hope this little bit helps.

PS. good luck with your reserch!

The problem with this train of thought is this, all teh things we can imagine or think of right now is governed by the rules of science and maths, and these rules only work in *this* universe, anything that's beyond our universe should be incomprehensible to the human mind (and science, too!).
Wormholes or time travel are of this universe i.e even if they make no sense to our minds they'd still make sense on paper (or mathematical calculations or even in bad science fictions).
Perhaps TS should limit* the research to 'beyond the earth' or beyond the solar system'?

* which still seem too adventurous IMO, we have barely scratched the surface of figuring the 'human' himself!

ref. (only scanned them -hurts my brain lor , but interesting nonetheless)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

I will check it out bro , thanks for info

Well right now I shall request for your imagination , screw what principles you learnt . try to ignore that and give me your imagination!

Sorry. No source. I just reasoned it out. Like this.

The observable universe is bound by the speed of light multiplied by the age of the universe. If the age of the universe is 15 billion years, then the observable universe is 15 billion light years. Anything at 20 billion light years cannot be seen now, because it would take 20 billion years for the light to get here. And if the universe is only 15 billion years, it would take another 5 billion years for the light to arrive. (I heard this somewhere, but cannot remember where).

If the limit of the observable universe is the same distance all around, it would be a sphere. And a ping pong ball is spherical.

So its like you imagined the growth as a universe starts from a centre point and the light years are the increasing radius from the centrepoint ?

Is it possible for someone to travel the speed of light and survive ?

In other words light defines speed right ?

Yes it is plausible. But is it possible now? No right?

That's what i'm trying to say. You can create tonnes of theories, but you need to prove them. Now we don't have the ability to prove them all right.



Which is why you can observe it as an ever-expanding sphere instead, x-199Tx. In good will, hopefully we can observe the ultimate universe, may it be a sphere, rectangle or pyramid-shaped

YeaH, guess you're right . But this assignment can also use imagination too . Not a must to apply all prinsiples or evidence ..

Good theory would be great .

Let me demonstrate another (IMO) fallacy of your attempt of 'using [your] imagination', first this post of yours:

- in each of your proposed scenario the rules of physics and maths and science is still observed, e.g flying fish is just fish that use flight (uplift, drag, air pressure etc.) as a mean of transport, they'd still consume food, breathe and everything, it's just their environment that is different, they're still in the same universe.

- going beyond the boundaries of this universe -to my thinking, means finding the place where the rules don't apply anymore. Thus there should be no light or matter there, there's nothing to see because our sights wouldn't work, nothing to measure because our technology wouldn't work and, assuming that we *can* exist there we need to find another sets of laws to describe it.

so let's take our thinking to the beyond Btw is there a never ending story ?

For example Light gets eaten by Black Hole . Black Hole gets eaten by X . X gets eaten by Y . Y gets eaten by I don't know why .. So is there a never ending chain ?

Couldn't the universe also be shaped like a donut? mean if you folded a piece of paper into like a roll, and the join both ends of the roll, you'll get something shaped like a donut. It would fit the principles of expansion and a donut shaped universe would be perceived as infinite by it's in habitants. You'd just travel round and round... Then again, 46.6 billion light years is as far as we can see right now, so till science gets past that hurdle, I guess all we can do is imagine...

Don't really get why we have to travel round and round ..

Sorry, what I meant was if you travel in a straight line, you'd in fact be going in circles... eg, draw a line on a piece of paper and then roll it up. An ant travelling on that line would think it's moving in a straight line. But in fact, the poor ant is just going around the rolled up peice of paper. Hence, giving it the illusion of an endless infinite space...

Not really. There may well be parts of the universe beyond which is not observable (because the light has not had enough time to get here).

Not without some breakthrough in science and tech. When you're just below light speed, if you're hit by a grain of dust, that grain will have an unimaginably large mass. The collision would be catastrophic.

---

Added on July 2, 2011, 8:50 amYou're referring to a hypersphere?

In other words, the universe might be finite but unbound. Just like we can walk forever on the surface of the earth and never find the edge, though the earth's surface area is not infinite. And if we walk far enough, we would eventually end up at where we started from.

---

Added on July 2, 2011, 8:54 amThis is why we have virtual machines. So that badly behaved critters (programs) in one universe do not cause problems in other universes (VMs).

This post has been edited by dkk: Jul 2 2011, 08:54 AM

Bro, you an astrophysicist or what? Lol. Exactly what I was trying to say... Gotta admit you said it much better though. Finite but unbound, exactly. I was also trying to point out that the universe need not be in only the shape of a sphere to be finite but unbound. The donut a.k.a. hypersphere is merely another example of suach a shape...

Point noted

More ideas !

i've seen a video about NASA managed to take a photo about the sign of Son of Man (Christianity) and I don't know from which angle or how far the photo was taken.

Maybe you could approach your research by talking about evolution vs creationism in explaining the vast of space today. Hope it helps!

But there are other galaxies outside the boundaries of earth.

Just to reiterate my point about science-based 'imaginations' here's a piece by National Geographic about:

Link

You can't argue with the right data & right formula you can basically predict anything.

A simple example would be Mr.A is hungry, very hungry and the only available food there is Rice & Noodle. Mr.A is allergic to Noodles but not rice. Mr.A is a normal person without mental problems. As such you can predict the probability of Mr.A choosing rice over noodle.

Yep that's the basis of every reasonable prediction a logical system can make, in the NG documentary example it's basically a similar system only the variables are extended to include climatology, biology, physics, chemistry etc.

Mr A has celiac disease?

Are you sure ? Link to source would be great !

Yes bro I know that , but bigger question is whats boundaries of universe ?

time past very fast....everyday..we keep repeat doing the same thing...in day, month, & years...with or wothout conciousness.

it like a sphere box that we trap inside of it........Recycle: form start to end, & end to start...never ending.

when u notice it...it too later.

Bcos we r old, u already forgot when it start, where it start.



Same phonomena happen to our mind.

Who are we? Where do we come from?
Where are we going? How do we know. What we think we know?
Why do we believe anything at all?

Countless questions, In search of an answer……..
An answer that will give rise to a new question…..
And the next answer will give, rise to the next question and so on….

But, in the end, isn't it always the same question?
And always the same answer?

When u poor, u want to be rich. After many years of hardworking. U become rich.
u notice richman also live like normal guy, who will old, sick, & die. When u notice it, u already old.
what more can u do?

Why we always trap inside the BOX? or trap inside in our MIND?

Bcos we CURIOS?

Or

Bcos we Believe/belief?

But the truth alway make us dissapointed/ hopeless. BUT, Men will alway use their imagination to recover it. They believe in GODs, Super nature, & POwer.

It's Call Theory.

u can use same concept to apply in this topic. Hope can help u.

Well, If the big bag theory is correct, then it seem like universe don have boundary; if happen that we able to travel in universe, we just like travel on the surface of a ballon.

Addon: This movie very similarity to your concept: 12 monkeys (1995)


Pls take a note of the movie poster, the 12 monkeys Logo (Look Like clock 4 me).
The story concept very similar like the clock. There are NO Starting Point.
Mean: from 1-12, Keep repeat in:

1) Same Dimesional (a circle shape of space dimesion)
2) Same Direction (Clock moving direction From 1-12)
3) Same nomber. (1-12 only) Where is Zero.

Pls take a note of "0"/ zero :

1) As a number: Zero is a number which quantifies a count or an amount of null size.
2) As a year label : In the BC calendar era, the year 1 BC is the first year before AD 1;...............
3) Zero as a decimal digit: Positional notation without the use of zero (using an empty space in tabular arrangements, or the word kha "emptiness") is known to have been in use in India from the 6th century. The earliest certain use of zero as a decimal positional digit dates to the 5th century mention in the text Lokavibhaga. The glyph for the zero digit was written in the shape of a dot, and consequently called bindu ("dot"). The dot had been used in Greece during earlier ciphered numeral periods..............

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_%28number%29

Pls take note in : Zero as a decimal digit- mean zero is a of : starting point ? or ending point. From 1 point (A) to another point (B).

Like i said above: The Clock only got nombor from 1 -12. they have no ZERO. Mean we keep repeat in the:

1) Same Dimesional (a circle shape of space dimesion)
2) Same Direction (Clock moving direction From 1-12) (ORBIT MOVING DIRECTION)
3) Same nomber. (1-12 only) Where is Zero. (365 DAYS)

Then, when we realise they have no ZERO, it too later. Bcos The incident of DOREMON & 12 MONKEYS WILL KEEP REPEAT & REPEAT....NEVER ENDING.

i saw many kind of the movies or novels or comic like the space & dimensional concept. But many ending like above incident. NEVER TALK ABOUT THE STARTING POINT OF ZERO.

& THIS MAKE US CURIOS? WHY WE BELIEVING IN IT?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yb3cN5EQbs...player_embedded

This post has been edited by limfreelance: Aug 12 2011, 10:19 AM