im curious too. im a maths grad. now working in a none related job at all. most of my course mates, including from other uni switched to statistics, actuarial, or even software eng, or any IT related after first year, realizing they'd end up nowhere. however some of us who finished the course had finally secured a place as IT ppl, programmer, etc. (provided they did great on sc comp subjects) while most of them end up teaching. few went to eng. and some got hired as financial analysts.

i used to be interviewed by one big man in one big company in one big industry (non-related) and he told me he's a maths grad, thinking he'd end up nowhere, he switched to statistic upon finishing first year.

my friends, physics grad-find it hard to land a job too. we, pure ppl facing lotsa hardness landing a job. some dude also badly regret for not doing eng course at the first place. they claimed maths is rather harder than eng. not sure though.

no definite answer.

mathematics isnt like you go to medic school, later become a doctor. or study any engineering courses to be hired by halliburton as a mud engineer . or study photography course to be a photographer. or do accounting to be an accountant. what i mean is you hardly own the tittle. hehe.

highly likely you'll end up teaching. being a maths lecturer/teacher is indeed good i bet.

i am not sure uni you are from but my physics coursemates have no difficulty in find jobs. Lots of them went to factories work as r&d engineers. Some choose to become teacher, project manager and further study. Perhaps one important factor is that USM is near to bayan lepas industrial area.

zeeyang: I suggest you do not pick a degree in pure math beforehand. Most universities offer general degrees in mathematics, and you can easily choose to specialise in your later years. In fact I'd say that most degrees in pure mathematics give you an option of transferring to a general degree in mathematics or even applied ones.

kasutdidi: I'm doing a maths degree (postgrad), and many of my friends from undergrad have gone on, or are going into: Investment Banking and Finance, Actuary (yes, you don't need to be an actuarial science student to be one), Engineering in Industry, IT, etc, etc, so it's not exactly a degree that locks you into becoming a lecturer alone. You actually usually have more options than a student doing a 'popular' degree.

Would Further Mathematics help? Definitely, but you'll be redoing a lot of the same material in a different way. Undergrad-level maths is a bit different from what we're usually used to in school and in A-levels, in the sense that it emphasizes on rigour and proofs.

As for unis, most IPTAs would be good, NUS and NTU are pretty good too for the regional ones. For the UK (well, England), usually Imperial, Warwick, Oxford and Cambridge's maths programmes are the highly regarded ones, but I'd say that I've met people from Nottingham, Bristol, Liverpool and York and they're pretty good too. The Welsh universities are also quite good.

This post has been edited by bgeh: Mar 1 2011, 07:37 AM

A slight correction to the AS part:

Going into, and coming out is a totally different story.
But with sufficient knowledge, a liking in Statistics and strong interest Mathematical Finance,
makes things easier, except alot of reading/research must be done to get hold of the ways these models are
applied within Business context.

Well that generally applies to all the different subjects I've listed above (engineering comes to mind too), that there will be a transition period and that the transition will involve a learning process. But the tradeoff is that you get a lot more flexibility than the specialised degree would get you.

That would depend on the proposed course structure which differs from each school.
Of course, flexibility trades off exposure as well.
Having courses taught by engineering practitioners and learning by self-study
can give very different outcomes.
But of course, the rate of input for each person is distinct as well, which may explain why someone would see certain option more beneficial than others, while
the complement case is possible as well.

I'd be inclined to disagree there, as general Mathematics courses allow a lot of flexibility to choose courses within the degree. A degree in Mathematics, without having done any statistical courses wouldn't get you close to being an actuary at all, and employers would easily filter those candidates out, but the option remains for those who are interested in general Mathematics but are thinking of becoming an actuary to take up statistics-related courses to see if they're really up for it, or whether they're better off doing other pursuits.

As for the engineering bit, I'd disagree, because what tends to happen is that the trainees are usually trained up for the job while doing it. They might lack the relevant knowledge, but it usually isn't hard for them to master the mathematics behind them, which speeds up the process considerably, and they get hands on experience all the time while working, so the skills gap usually isn't as big as thought after a year or so.

I'm just advertising this little known fact, because I think plenty of people don't take up the mathematics degree option thinking it closes down on many possible career paths, when in fact, with some work it expands horizons quite a bit.

This post has been edited by bgeh: Mar 2 2011, 08:36 AM

Rather than going to weird ends where disagreeing on something I didn't even agreed upon.
Let me get my facts right:

1) A mathematic degree has its own uniqueness, as we know no matter which field one is to emerge into, mathematic is an esseintial tool to make things work

2) My analogy is simply direct:
A specialist degree is best taught by the specialist itself.
The depth of coverage is distinct from each school, whether they would touch into more conceptual details, depend on the course structures.

3) depending on local economy demands, and sustainability, it is a fact that certain degree is not so well promoted than others in a society. people react to incentive, and with asymmetrical information provided, choices are distorted. It is nothing to do with right or wrong, but the fact what specific field the economy is focussing on, will be the movement of choices.

4) As we know, in a career both Practical experience, technical skills and knowledge is equally important. I wouldnt argue to rank these factors by priority in general. but for each distinct job/career, the proportion of these factors varies accordingly. Similarly saying, there is a difference between academic-oriented jobs and practical-oriented jobs.

5) I am in no way discouraging juniors to take on mathematic or general degrees, but to imply that, "If you want to be a specialist,
do consider taking a specialist degree than a general degree" as it gives u the relevant exposure, training and knowledge to work in that particular
specialized field.
e.g. A mathematic degree holder can always do a masters in Engineering to become a qualified engineer. but think again for those that HAD decided to become an engineer, since u decided to become an engineer, why not take a 4yrs engineering degree program instead?

6) to be clear, my argument is centred on comparative advantage which explains with this scienario, relevant exposure A may be preferred than B. But in no way to imply A will always be better than B for each case. To acknowledge each field of study is unique, and the way everyone make decision is unique as well.

Oh no, I don't disagree with you on a general point. My premise lies in a single fundamental assumption: Most students do not know what they want to do after SPM/A levels/STPM, except having a vague idea of a field they may be interested in. The extra flexibility offered by a Mathematics degree is a very strong advantage here, but many do not realise that advantage as they think it's a 'dead end' degree - well at least that was the impression my friends and I had at the time. I'm not denying that the specialist subjects would've done more real life examples etc, etc, and have their own advantages, but these things can be learnt on the job too. You're definitely more prepared for a job if you do a specialist degree, but my observation here is that most people don't know what a job entails post-SPM, and making a choice towards flexibility may help things greatly.

I'm trying to sell that point, that you get increased flexibility with a Maths degree.

Again, I did not, in any way imply that Maths is the best degree to take over all others. I was trying to raise awareness that maths is a very flexible degree which does not lock down your choices of career. (You can see that with some of the responses here)

This post has been edited by bgeh: Mar 2 2011, 08:48 PM

regarding the flexibility of maths degree, is it applicable in Malaysia? Or is this true only in overseas, where sciences and mathematics are highly valued compared to Malaysia?

A math degree itself is not a professional degree. Even actuarial math and financial math on it's own it's not a professional degree. Professional degrees are degrees that train you to hold an occupation in a certain area. Degree like medicine, business and law are professional degrees.

What a math degree really does is just certifies that you know alot of math. That is why you have stuff like Actuarial Societies, CFA and so on. These organizations are professional organization and they have also come out with test and memberships to certify you as having some professional knowledge and skills. That is where the application of all your math comes in.

In my school, the students who really love math go on to do postgraduate studies in math and the of course is the pathway to research in math. Those who want to apply their skills go into mathematical analysis, computer science, social sciences, law, etc. And there are those who want to get a job right away.

Regarding jobs, there's two pathway. One can try professional accreditations like being part of an actuarial society, CFA and I don't know what others or going on to do an MBA. However, alot of companies recognize math degree holders for their intelligence, problem solving skills, ability to see out of the box, etc. So they employ them right away into to be part of something, it could be any field whatsoever. They just want your their brains, not their mathematical skills. The most popular ones are of course investent companies and consulting firms.

I was doing an actuarial math program but stopped a few days ago. I can tell you that being able to do A-Levels Further Maths doesn't exactly tell you what you can or cannot do in the future. There is math that is really theoretical, there is math that relies on mental visualization, there is math that relies on abstract principles, there is math the require application (ie. translation real world programs into math problems). There are also many ways you can be tested in an exam in college. Some people are really smart and are good and some aren't, like me.

I did get an A in SPM MT. However I did fail MT in secondary school before. I even got a D on one subject in a college in Malaysia. I still managed to get into a pretty good university where I was doing math until a few days ago(I decided to change my major). So A-Levels Further Math isn't the only way to go.

And with anything, be sure you like math! I loved math so I was able to stick with it for so long despite performing poorly. I didn't mind repeating a subject, I didn't mind the bad grades. But I see alot of others who consistently get A yet aren't happy and feel regretful about their choice to study math. Don't look at your A and see yea I got and A so that means I like math. You've to like it from inside out.

I have great interest in maths - not only because maths is crucial for problem solving, but the the logical sequence of mathematics, precision of calculation and the behavior of numbers attract me more than anything else that I know of. This may sounds far-fetched, but if I am to be involved in any research during Masters or PhD, I would rather be doing some research in mathematics compared to anything else.

However, I must say, having grown up in a typical Asian family, I am successfully brain-washed to think that only a professional degree is considered as a 'good' degree. Eg. Law, doctor, engineer etc. Heck, when I try to think about my interest after SPM, I only singled out profession that involves mathematics such as engineers, actuarial science, maths lecturer etc.

I am doing my Pre-U now and soon the time to choose my pathways will come. A degree in mathematics or engineering? I would still need confidence and assurance should I ever consider to pick up a mathematics degree. Assurance as in the form of job prospects and how well a mathematics degree prepares the graduates for their future.

This post has been edited by zeeyang: Mar 22 2011, 12:37 AM

Lol. there is no assurance in a Mathematical pathway. Unless going and spending the rest of your life Teaching, writing books, or researching. math alone cant bring you far.
Even if you look closely at Nobel awards, there's no award in mathematics, because math alone is not useful, but if you want to prove its ability, you will have to prove and explain how such theorem contributes to
realistic/real-life application, which explains why Mathematicians can win awards in Economics, Sciences, Astronomy, Finance etc.

Having said that, you will probably like to look at math, a different way. It will be more like a tool to use, than a field of study.
Of course in a Math degree, you learn things in Fundamental theorems, proof, and arguments. Having learnt these root of thoughts, this is what help u understand
the mathematical nature of many sciences, economics, dimensions.

It is nearly ab impossible task to single-out careers without Math in it. We use math so often that we sometimes dont realise whether such analysis/idea fall within the mathematical boundary.
It is just the weightage of math that counts in different career fields.

Like how I said many times before, its more on Which type of math do you like, than whether do you like math.
But of course everyone approaches a matter with different thoughts & methods, it will be highly reasonable for everyone to like different type of math.
hence, there's no assurance, the assurance is your own ability to utilise what u learn in Uni.

You may not win a noble prize for being a mathematician, but there other other awards within the mathematical community for you. Plus if you develop some useful theorem or solve some unsolved math problems, you will get honors, money and recognition for a long time after you death.

At the end of the day, be realistic, do what you like, balance between your interest, wants and necessities and make sure you can fill your rice bowl.

Studying is studying, getting a degree is getting a degree and getting a job is getting a job. They're not the same thing, although they're somewhat interconnected.

I like math, but I quit getting a degree halfway. Why? Cause I don't think the structure of the program in college. I'm not bad at math, but I'm not near the best. It requires too much time to revise to be able to answer any question that might pop out. Exams are structured to be tricky and involve few questions, making it easy to bomb. And assessment is based mostly on two or three major exams. All which I'm not good at. Still I'm studying math on my own because it's interesting and it's useful in any field, particularly Psychology which I'm aiming for now. I still aspire to be a certified actuary and weight all of this, I don't see a need for a math degree.

Like numbers, structure calculation doesn't mean you like math or you're good at it. And liking math doesn't mean you have to do a degree in math. And all these doesn't mean you need to do a calculation heavy job.

hey, mathematicians help a lot alryte... i respect them a lot.

im a researcher (wastewater) and my math friends really help me a lot. let me put it this way. mathematicians help engineers, scientists solve our problems. there is always a job out there, see the world as your market and u shall find plenty of work. mathematicians FTW

There's the Fields Medal, and what pretty much everyone agrees right now is the best theoretical physicist alive today has one, but not a Nobel Prize (but I digress, because Nobel Prizes do not imply usefulness):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Witten

zeeyang: Chase your dreams. You'd be much happier you did, even without a certain career pathway at the end of your degree. I'm not 100% certain whether I'm going on to do a PhD, but I know I've got a lot of job choices in the 'real world'.

Send me a PM if you've got other questions.

This post has been edited by bgeh: Mar 23 2011, 08:50 AM

No one nor I, am implying that Mathematics by itself is totally useless. but to address the fact that Mathematic as a tool, is best utilized when working with another discipline. Nor am I gonna emphasis or do any research regarding what type of award mathmaticians can win, I am highlighting a social fact that there are fields where there's a high concentration of Mathematical element in it, but most of us did not realise its application, and how it relates to Math.

I believe the very big difference between a Math degree and a science,economics, finance, accounting degree is the distinction between theoretical and practical approach.

Speaking from experience,
I have seen how math students comment about the lack of Math in Accounting related subjects, which I highlighted to them "theories of Set, Sample Space,progressions" is basically what that works behind
the logic to do Consolidations, elimination and the nature of Dual Balance.

In terms of teaching as well,
within the actuarial framework, the approach of lecturers from Mathematical backgrounds, those with industrial-exposure and those who are statisticians, although all provide teachings regarding the same actuarial
mathematics, but their approach can greatly differ. Some may do more "proving" in class, some tells you to stick to the formula and learn elements of the formula how it relates to practicality, some always
adapt a root principal and build things up from there. Of course in particular, they are not ranked in anyway, but to understand there's pros and con's in each method.

Having privately consulted by few juniors re: AS itself, I am kinda worried the understanding of Math to youngsters nowadays (particular those that just completed SPM,STPM), it had became too arithmetic based.
Many times, one often self-induce that I am good in counting, good with numbers, fast with numbers, hence I am good in Math. My primary concern is students should diversify their understanding towards mathematics. And realise how Math is equally applied practically in a variety of studies. I am in no way trying to disprove the theoretical approach of Mathematics, I am just trying to remind future students do keep an open mind in choosing courses, there's a variety of courses that need people with good mathematical skills, at the same time, one have to be sure what he/she wants to achieve with a Math degree and whether this pathway can provide you your expectation, according to individual interest.

Nothing oversensitive, just for them to keep an open-mind.

Hi there, was just wondering regarding what you said, what if I DO want to spend the rest of my life teaching mathematics? For instance, becoming a mathematics lecturer in Malaysia? Is a mathematics degree necessary/suitable?

Also, I do love maths, but Im not exactly excellent in it. Is a mathematics degree really difficult? Is it more difficult compared to engineering and actuarial science? Hope you guys can help out. Thanks!!

Yes, you would need a math degree!!

And yes, I think it would be more difficult ... if you're not excellent in it, you won't survive. Now you're learning the simplest form of maths, if you can't survive now, you won't be able to survive when you learn about more abstract, something in a higher dimensions, and you'll learn new symbols and notations that can be completely different from before. In higher level maths, your calculator won't be able to help you.

Go engineering instead if your math is just so-so... and in engineering you've more option later, you can choose to specialise after 1st or 2nd year.