First, forgive my ignorance on theological issues. But as far as I am concerned, we have the same commandments on Exodus NOW, as showed.
and here
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch...ism/command.htm

from the Church of Rome itself, that you cast your blame upon.

and to quote what I replied on another thread previously



Second, refer what bro Unknown Warrior said (pages 150-160), ' the law ' which Catholics and Christians are no longer under the old law, which never saved a soul, but they are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. many people have never been able to accept the true message of Christianity, which is love … NOT law. … that the old law was really just a curse … to prove to sinful mankind that Jesus the Messiah, is absolutely essential for salvation.

Jesus perfectly fulfilled and set aside the entirety of the old law. Then on Pentecost, the Holy Spirit presided at the birth of the Church, which replaced it.

No more Old Covenant. No more Old Law.
The Beatitudes are to the New Covenant what the Ten Commandments were to the Old Covenant.
New Covenant Christians are now under grace … not law. And that’s a good thing, too … because the law was never capable of saving a soul.
Old Law – Fulfilled and Set Aside By Jesus Christ
Thanks to Jesus, New Covenant Christians know precisely what God looks like, so there’s no danger of our worshiping anyone or anything else.
Also, please note that in Old Testament times, God commanded many types of graven images to be made and used, for his own sacred purposes.
Since Jesus remains the head of the Church, and he personally gave the Church the power to bind and loose, on earth and in heaven, it was long ago officially decided that sacred art and statuary pose no obstacle to the authentic Christian faith.
In fact, sacred art and statuary have been used for practical catechesis, since long before the average citizen was even able to read.
Thanks to the Catholic Church, every Christian now has a very good idea what Jesus really looks like … while Jesus himself remains the flesh image of a heavenly thing … something which apparently breaks God’s very own commandment.

On the first Christian Pentecost the Church officially replaced the old system of things. From that moment on, according to the power of the Holy Spirit and the authority that Jesus personally gave his Church (binding and loosing, on earth in heaven … along with the Keys to the Kingdom) the New Covenant Church would be the only definitive path to salvation. The time for all the old laws, statutes, ordinances, feasts and rituals was over. They never had the power to save a soul, anyway.
The New Covenant Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, headed by Jesus Christ himself, and paid for with his blood would now be the sole governing authority for every Christian … and things would remain that way until the end of time.
Sorry if you don’t like it … but that’s the way it is!

My heart is with Christ, like you, like our bros n sis, but my heart is weak, as I am man, and man ERR.
Like the branches and Vine that must remain in Christ, so that I do not BLUR.
the Grace of God flows to us, in the name of Christ, through Holy Spirit, so we do not stutter
as we are Body of Christ, Be it Christ, be it Saints on Heaven and Earth, be it Mary, it is Unbreakable, devils cannot stir,
clear?

The whole Bible is about Love, Marriage of Men to God and returning to God, Christ is the centre figure, but Heaven is not about you and Jesus Christ only (that is so boring), its about all of US, angels and saints alike, and His creation, and Him.

the key is: Love , and God is love.

about the Church is Evil.

And what about the protestant Jimmy Swaggart visiting prostitutes on Bourbon Street?
The protestant Jim Bakker seeing a young woman on the side?
The protestant Jesse Jackson fathering a baby out of wedlock?
The protestant Al Sharpton making up the Tawana Brawley story?
The protestant Jim Jones murdering hundreds of his followers with poison?
The protestant Tony Alamo getting caught molesting young girls in Arkansas?
The protestant David Koresh molesting young girls in Waco?
The protestant Puritans murdering women in Massachusetts accused of being witches?
Latest being,
The protestant Kong Hee misusing funds of City Harvest Church

Do any of those protestant scandals "prove" that the Protestant Church is evil?

And besides all of that, there were scandals in the early church, namely that of Judas who sold Christ to the Pharisees so they could hand him over to the Romans, and that of Peter, who denied Jesus three times. The Church survived those apostles, hand picked by Jesus Himself. Sinful leaders of the Church do not necessarily equate to an evil Church. It only means that the leaders are human, not gods. Just look how evil politicians in charge of our country commit adultery and steal money. That doesn't mean that America is a rotten country and we should leave it; rather, it only means that we elect weak people who sin to office. The exact same thing goes for the 2% of priests over 50 years who have fallen into grievous sin. The other 98% are clean as a whistle.

so pls dont start this, we are humans. I am really reluctant to answer questions pertaining to errors of people and of Church. the Bolded sentence would practically answer everything, Let us turn to peace and love btw bros n sis, and help each other to grow in love, and to be more of living images of Christ, in Christ's name, amen?

Hi bro, yes I understand you


Really, to be honest, while I believe in it, I look only to their exemplary lives (sticky quotes on my study table). i.e: the quotes they said when they were alive, the deeds they done. Because they have done it, they finished their journey on earth and are steadfast to the Lord and already enjoy beatification of God. This, I look as exemplary, to remind myself that I too, one day will join them, and with our Father in heaven.



I have one question on this one: I believe Baptism washes away all sins, as we enter a new life, a life with God.

and now brother here is implying, - which is also true, but only for those who follow Christ and His teachings, those who water their seeds of faith is it not?

However we are still humans, we sin time to time, knowingly or not. And really, we are not perfect.

Bear with me,

my understandings have roots in the Catechism of Catholic Church, and I did not find it contrasting, rather, reasonable.

Salvation is a lifelong journey, not a one time acceptance of "Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior"

Jesus says in Mark 13:13 that If we endure to the end, we WILL be saved (future tense, not past).

Mat 10:22, 24:13 My understanding is 'If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.'

Matt. 7:21 - not all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will be saved.

Paul says we WILL be saved (future tense, not past) by fire on the day of our judgment in 1 Corinthians 3:15

Mat. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior (which I now believe is obedience to God, and works that are resultant from faith - thank you bro for making me understand this one)

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed?

Rev 3:5 - He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 3:11 - I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

and more often than not, St Paul writes his letters using the word 'hope'
that is why we must have all 3, faith-hope-love

today for example, for our scripture reading (we prepare for Advent now)
http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/120212.cfm <---check the 2nd Reading and Gospel Reading, I was just telling my friends Christmas is not all about jingly-jingly jing, party and ho-ho-ho like the contemporaries do.

Even when we race until the end, Rev 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Like a rusted metal, when we race till the end (salvation is guaranteed), but we still have to be polished before we become the gold, fit enough to enter Kingdom of God. It sounds logical no?
We will always have some personal desires in us, during our lives on earth, inclination to sin, harbour impure thoughts, in deeds.

Alright, I am interested in listening to your words of wisdom regarding these.

and I do believe I am saved so do we all

Bro I rest my case, I have an exam coming up in 2 hours in Tuberculosis (if you see this, pray for me ) to be calm and wise and answer all questions well, and Thy will be done

also, I think bro misunderstood me but lets not get it over with.

What I meant was:
Other people, who, profess they believe in Jesus Christ but do nothing about it or utilise none of God's grace in their everyday lives

and

The question of entering Heaven straight or, refined by fire to really yes, purge our impurities and to remove all sadness and tears before entering Heaven, for nothing impure can enter

Have a blessed week people

Everything turns out well in the exam I will come back and try my best to be a good Doctor of the 'Body'

Thank you all!

Well, about that, when we wonder on Passion of Christ (for example a kind of prayer meditation I like is to wonder on that, and His mercy during the Crucifixion)

He ransomed us back from the devil, yet till now, so many reject Him, or to the lukewarm. and He gives us this freedom to choose, and with the finite time of ours (which is quite alot) to decide.

His boundless mercy and Love, you do understand right? I sometimes feel sad or I weep over this one (its not that about faith etc etc or I feel unworthy, just I like to catch a glimpse of the Lord's Passion and pray for the world)

Oh yeah, have you heard of Taize?

http://www.taize.fr/en_rubrique45.html

I am joining this European Youth Meeting between Christians (orthodox Protestants and Catholics alike) for a joyful merry Christmas, New Year and sharing of gospel, as well as interacting, dancing etc etc

Their songs - you can search in youtube, are peaceful to ear (evergreen style, good for meditation and prayer), and their activities are really good too. It will be my 2nd time with those europeans on Taize, 4th time if include Vatican meeting and World Youth Day last year

Sharing a story with you all, some of you may have heard it but no harm reminding you again

What our bro Unknown Warrior has always tried to hold upright and remind us bros n sis:


Righteousness of our Faith through the Story of an Attorney

After living what I felt was a 'decent' life, my time on earth came to the end.

The first thing I remember is sitting on a bench in the waiting room of what I thought to be a court house.

The doors opened and I was instructed to come in and have a seat by the defense table.

As I looked around I saw the 'prosecutor.'

He was a villainous looking gent who snarled as he stared at me. He definitely was the most evil person I have ever seen.

I sat down and looked to my left and there sat My Attorney, a kind and gentle looking man whose appearance seemed so familiar to me, I felt I knew Him.

The corner door flew open and there appeared the Judge in full flowing robes.

He commanded an awesome presence as He moved across the room I couldn't take my eyes off of Him.

As He took His seat behind the bench, He said, "Let us begin."

The prosecutor rose and said,
"My name is Satan and I am here to show you why this woman belongs in hell..."

He proceeded to tell of lies that I told, things that I stole, and in the past when I cheated others. Satan told of other horrible perversions that were once in my life and the more he spoke, the further down in my seat I sank.

I was so embarrassed that I couldn't look at anyone, even my own Attorney, as the Devil told of sins that even I had completely forgotten about.

As upset as I was at Satan for telling all these things about me, I was equally upset at My Attorney who sat there silently not offering any form of defense at all.

I know I had been guilty of those things, but I had done some good in my life - couldn't that at least equal out part of the harm I'd done?

Satan finished with a fury and said, "This woman belongs in hell, she is guilty of all that I have charged and there is not a person who can prove otherwise."

When it was His turn, My Attorney first asked if He might approach the bench. The Judge allowed this over the strong objection of Satan, and beckoned Him to come forward.

As He got up and started walking, I was able to see Him in His full splendor and majesty.

I realized why He seemed so familiar; this was Jesus representing me, my Lord and my Savior.

He stopped at the bench and softly said to the Judge, "Hi, Dad," and then He turned to address the court.

"Satan was correct in saying that this woman had sinned, I won't deny any of these allegations. And, yes, the wage of sin is death, and this woman deserves to be punished."

Jesus took a deep breath and turned to His Father with outstretched arms and proclaimed, "However, I died on the cross so that this person might have eternal life and she has accepted Me as her Savior, so she is Mine."

My Lord continued with, "Her name is written in the Book of Life, and no one can snatch her from Me."

"Satan still does not understand yet. This woman is not to be given justice, but rather mercy."

As Jesus sat down, He quietly paused, looked at His Father and said, "There is nothing else that needs to be done."

"I've done it all."

The Judge lifted His mighty hand and slammed the gavel down. The following words bellowed from His lips..

"This woman is free."

"The penalty for her has already been paid in full."

"Case dismissed."

As my Lord led me away, I could hear Satan ranting and raving, "I won't give up, I will win the next one." I asked Jesus as He gave me my instructions where to go next, "Have you ever lost a case?"

Christ lovingly smiled and said,

"Everyone that has come to Me and asked Me to represent them has received the same verdict as you."

~"Paid In Full"~



It is finished - Jesus' 2nd last sentence on the Cross


This post has been edited by Jedi: Dec 3 2012, 08:00 PM

dear sister,

I am a fellow brother (same denomination as you) but really, religion is over-rated nowadays.

You came here, whether by accident or curiosity. We know that to God nothing is coincidence, we Christians should believe that.
well, having said that, more of a providence.

Psalm 33:11
But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever,
the purposes of his heart through all generations.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9)


'You have made us for yourself, and our heart is restless until it rests in you' - St Augustine

It is natural for us to seek God. He has placed in our hearts a longing to seek and find Him (since the ancient times, man tried, but kind of failed - animism to egyptian gods, and then revelation to Abraham)
So you see, all of our striving for truth and happiness is ultimately a search for the one who supports us absolutely, satisfies us absolutely and emplys us absolutely in his service.

We are not completely ourselves until he has found God.

We call this longing for God -> Religion.


as for

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Do not be afraid of bros n sis here, we try to help you the way we can, to realise that you do not Fear God out of Love, nor do you come to love God out of fear

This post has been edited by Jedi: Dec 4 2012, 10:25 PM

Dear Bro, Thank you for the sharing!

to make you remember easily this problem, Ill share how I do it

Since prayer can be worship, petition, thanksgiving, intercession (for Catholics, and lets not start again on this )

Petition to God can only have 3 variants of answer

a) Yes
b) No
c) Not Yet

Not yet? Maybe it does not suit you? Maybe He has a better plan for you?



Give thanks to Him always in every prayer
It helps us grow in spirit, it should, and not to deter away from Him.

I remembered once during Christian Student Fellowship, an african girl from Botswana shared:
When God says, ' Let there be Light ' and light it was.
What God says count, not the other way round. We should not demand something and make him secondary.

Lastly, sharing my favourite quotes:

If we are in trouble, always say not: Lord please I need this this and that that if not I cannot ----

Rather:

Thy will be done. Luke 1:38

^ Who says Mary is only a child bearer of God. She is the greatest example of humility and obedience for a human being. (Christ is both God and Man, so Hes exception). Even archangel Gabriel said: Hail Mary full of Grace - not worshiping her, but honouring her!

Prayer is the oxygen of our soul - St Padre Pio

so Prayer always works, but God's answers? always to our GOOD.


and May the Lord bless you always! Peace be with you!

I beg to disagree but I do not wish to start a discussion non-general Christian consensus topic (might end up in flame war )

I will put a short concise one though regarding why we have this differences exist

from my discussion with the jihadist defender of Christendom *you know who*

General Protestant consensus:

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says "ave gratia plena "Hail full of grace.'" Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin, but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation. Of course, it cannot correct itself since so much is invested in the worship, adoration, and prayer to Mary in the Roman Catholic Church and to recant of this false teaching would greatly lessen its credibility. Unfortunately, this means that millions of Catholics will continue to look to Mary for help, not Christ who is truly full of grace.

What does the Greek say here for "highly favored one? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean "full of grace" which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.
•5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”1
•5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar·ee·to·o/] v. From 5485; TDNT 9:372; TDNTA 1298; GK 5923; Two occurrences; AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.

General Catholic consensus:

The Koine Greek used at the time is different from modern Greek. It is a much more precise language than English. The words used of Jesus in John 1 are Pleres Charis. Pleres means "full" or "lacking nothing" (and is applied also to "truth"). Charis simply means "Grace".

The word used of Mary in Luke 1 is Kecharitomene. It is a complex participle. The root of this word is Charis, meaning Grace. The prefix 'Ke' means that the grace was already perfectly present before the angel appeared. The suffix 'mene' means that Mary was the recipient of this grace. In other words Kecharitomene shows that Mary was a recipient of a fullness of Grace. The grace was given to her. The perfect tense indicates that this filling with grace is a continuous event that was ongoing before the angel appeared.

The translations which state "highly favoured" instead of "full of grace", are largely motivated by a doctrinal desire to downgrade Mary. The first version to use this translation was the King James Version, where the translators noted that "highly favoured" was used instead of "full of Grace" in order to show that Mary was not a source of grace. (Tyndale's version on which the KJV was largely based, used full of Grace).

Most protestant bibles followed the KJV, (along with some modern Catholic ones)
Now, in modern Greek, which Protestants used to interpret these verses, Charis can be translated simply as "favour". So "Highly-favoured" could be a conceivable translation - but this would only be acceptable if the word "favour" were used as a translation for "Charis" everywhere else in the New Testament. But THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN. Even those bibles which translate "Charis" as Favour" when referring to Mary, translate it as "Grace" everywhere else. This is highly misleading because in the New Testament the word "Grace" has a particular meaning distinct from "Favour".

In the New Testament "Grace" is a gift of God that saves from sin and its effects. So translating the word any differently is wrong. The correct translation is rightfully "Full of Grace".

and Rightly so,

Into a virgin’s soul, in like manner, must be introduced that Word of God which was to raise the fabric of life; so that what had been reduced to ruin by this sex might be the selfsame sex be recovered to salvation. - Tertullian, early Christian thinker

To be a perfect vessel to carry God's only Son, thou has to be free from Original Sin. and kecharitomene this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

even Luther honours Mary, it was the subsequent John Calvin , Zwingli buddies who downgrades her grace. (Honour, not worship)

did you read the catholic consensus?

bro, I dont want to further this discussion. It is never-ending and head-spinning. and I was smiling today despite beating the first blizzard coming in winter, that you helped me much for upholding my faith.

We will find out in heaven anyway, all answers. and whether, Mary is Mother of God for real or not.

Peace be with us all.

OK bro, lets discuss

Beforehand I wish to ask for any forgiveness of ignorance or offence if I have any, and you may correct me on any point for you are wiser than I am, or should I say, more senior than I am

in Romans 3:10….Paul was quoting Psalm 14 (“It is written”), which is referring to atheists.
In the book of Luke, there are at least 3 people in the New Testament who are righteous – Simeon (Luke 2), Elizabeth, and Zechariah (Luke 1).

I am saying the Church did not upgrade her, but is giving her what is due and is very biblical.

1
Luke 1:48 has it. “All generations to come shall call me blessed”

We dont have Blessed Abraham, Blessed Moses, Blessed John or Blessed Paul do we? They are saints like us, but they are in heaven.

2
from RCC view the word Kecharitomene : to put it, she was prevented from falling into the snake pit of sin by the grace of God, rather than being saved from it after sinning, like the rest of us.

3
Gen 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Since Eve was in compliance with the devil, and not at enmity, THE WOMAN could not refer to her, but rather a future “WOMAN” who would have enmity (lifelong hatred) with Satan.

and I have explained to the strong-willed defender of Christendom who agrees with me, and I will share again for all bros n sis here:


Fra Angelico, Anunciation

on the left, you see Adam, Eve and God. They walked in shame, because they have been disobedient by eating the forbidden fruit from Garden of Eden. Grace was lost (spiritual death), when serpent seduced them and said they will not die eating the fruit (it was not physical death)

on the right, Anunciation of Mary , archangel Gabriel sent the message to Mary that she will conceive Jesus through the Holy Spirit, she replied : Your will be done. - complete obedience.

Disobedience vs obedience to God - One listen to devil, one to angel
Fall of Men vs Salvation of Men
he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Women hate snakes and creeping creatures; they have a natural, instilled fear of them--thus the term "enmity" (hatred)
Her offspring---Down into the ages, Eve had a child, and that child had a child, and after many generations, Christ was born.
Jesus crushed satan's head when He came to save the people and set us free.
Satan striked at Jesus' heel like a snake, Jesus still had the victory.
Even in Jesus death, although it seemed that satan had victory as Jesus hung on the cross in humilation and total pain, our sins laid upon our King.....the snake thought he'd won.

this is what he wrote:


this is what I would think but I did not write to him:

Most biblical scholars believe that “the seed” is Jesus Christ”, and that He bruised satan’s head at the place of the skull, called Golgotha, at the crucifixion. If that is so, then Catholics believe that “THE WOMAN” could only refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, her “seed”. This is why Jesus always referred to Mary as “Woman”, rather than Mom or Mother. Mary can be viewed as a parallel to the Tabernacle of the Lord, as constructed by Moses in Exodus 40 and Luke Chapter 1.

In Exodus 40:34-35, when the Tabernacle was completed, we learn the following:

"Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud overshadowed it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

" In Luke 1:35, the Bible says:

"And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you,and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;therefore the child to be born will be called holy,the Son of God."

In both cases, the word used to "overshadow" is "episkiasei".

Catholics also view Mary as the New Testament Ark of the Covenant.

The Old Testament Ark of the Covenant contained three items – The Word of God in the form of stone tablets (the 10 Commandments), manna (bread) from Heaven, and the rod of Aaron that resprouted and came back to life (Hebrews 9:4).

Just so, the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary contained Jesus Christ – The living Word of God (John 1:1), the bread of life (John 6:48), and the ruler with a rod of iron who also came back to life (Rev.12:5).

At the Annunciation of Mary, Gabriel told her that the power of the most high would “overshadow” her (Luke 1:35). The term “overshadow” is significant, because it was also used to refer to the cherubim “overshadowing” the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant (Hebrews 9:5). The Ark was made with pure gold (Exodus 4), and was very holy, which parallels the Catholic teaching that Mary is also pure and holy. The Ark of the Covenant was so holy, that no ordinary person could even touch it. Uzzah reached out to steady it, and was instantly struck dead (2 Samuel 6:7).

There are many parallels between the mention of the Ark in 2 Samuel 6 and Mary in Luke 1:

David heads to the hills of Judah in 2 Samuel 6:2-3; Mary heads to the hills of Judah in Luke 1:39.
David dances for joy in front of the Ark (2 Samuel 6:14); the unborn fetus John the Baptist leaps for joy in Elizabeth’s womb at the sound of Mary’s voice (1 Luke 44).
David says “How can the Ark come to me”? (2 Samuel 6:9); Elizabeth says, “How is this that the Mother of my Lord has come to me”? (1 Luke 43).
David and the Ark stayed for 3 months (2 Samuel 6:11); Mary stayed for 3 months (1 Luke 56).

So if Jesus is “The Word Made Flesh”, then Mary is “The Ark Made Flesh”.
All of these parallels between the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament and the Blessed Virgin Mary in the New Testament is a branch of scripture study known as “typology”.

In other words, events and people in the New Testament are prefigured by events and people in the Old Testament.

Give bro an example of another typology:
Revelation 12 and Genesis 37:9.

Mary’s Magnificat in Luke 1 is very similar to Hannah’s canticle in 1 Samuel 2. - will not discuss it here

In Genesis, Joseph says,
"Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

In Revelation 12:1, the scripture reads,
“And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”

The obvious parallel is that the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars in Joseph’s dream represent his 11 brothers and all of Israel, while THE WOMAN in Revelation is adorned with these symbols of Israel. So who is the “WOMAN”? The first clue is the term “a great portent”.

In Isaiah 7:14 in the Old Testament, it says,
“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.”

so to fairly say:
The great portent of Revelation and the sign of Isaiah are one and the same – A Virgin who will give birth to the leader of Israel, Jesus Christ. That woman is the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The writer of the book of Revelation, St. John the Apostle, was given by Jesus on the cross to Mary as her son, and Mary was given to John as his Mother, in John 19:26-27.

This means that John knew Mary better than anyone, except for Jesus, and he is trying to tell us all something about her status in heaven.

In the preceding verse, Revelation 11:19, John tells us that he sees the Ark of the Covenant.

In the next verse, Revelation 12:1, he describes the Ark for us as “A woman clothed with the sun”, a term that could only mean the immaculately conceived Virgin Mary.

The rest of Revelation 12 talks about the enmity prefigured in Genesis 3:15 between the devil and THE WOMAN, and how satan can’t get to her.

In Revelation 12:17, it says that we are her children if we follow the commandments and bear testimony to Jesus.

4:

Luke 6:43 says " For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit."
Elizabeth tells Mary in Luke 1:42: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb''

So that means that since Jesus is the fruit of Mary, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit, then it logically follows that Mary, while not divine, is certainly free from sin, like her Son.
Otherwise, she could not have the pure and sinless God of the universe inside of her.

5:

In the Old Testament, the Kings' mother was the queen. The Kings in the Old Testament, like Solomon, had so many wives that it would have been hard to choose one over the other, so the mother of the King became the Queen. Bathsheeba, David's wife, was King Solomon's Queen Mother.
In 1 Kings 2, Adonijah approaches the Queen Bathsheeba to ask her to intercede on his behalf with King Solomon.
When she asks her son for Adonijah's favor, King Solomon says "Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you".

This is a parallel to the New Testament, John 2, when Mary intercedes on behalf of the wedding couple to Jesus about the wine that has run out.
Solomon didn't refuse his Queen Mother in the Old Testament, and Jesus didn't refuse his Queen Mother in the New Testament. hey, Jesus even performed his first miracle here. (Is this not intercession even? and yes it speeds up the process, if not Jesus wont turn water into wine)
Neither does he refuse her now.


Bro, sorry for very TLDR

and bro, I thank you for asking me.

You know, Dec 8 we RCC celebrate Immaculate Conception, where Mary is conceived without original sin.

As I just said, nothing is coincidence. To me, maybe Mother Mary wants me to help you realise at least this: She loves you very much and cares for you, and wants you to understand her better. Through God's grace, with God's permission, I am just trying to help bro understand why we honour Mary highly. It is up to bro to read as fairytale because its not biblical, or to read with wisdom of Holy Spirit.

when Jesus said: Behold, this is your Mother, He means it.

Just a sharing: ”Let those who think that the Church pays too much attention to Mary give heed to the fact that Our Blessed Lord Himself gave ten times as much of His life to her as He gave to His Apostles.”
Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

10x, 30 years for Mary, 3 years for Mankind

Let it be so, from my part.

what I said:


Exactly, Why Woman? Jesus himself indicates that Mary is the prophetic "woman" or "New Eve" of Genesis 3:15 when he refers to his mother as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26. Moreover, St. John refers to Mary as "woman" eight times in Revelation 12.


and I forgot to add:
No one said Mary not needed Jesus for her salvation
Mary herself said, ‘My soul rejoices in God my savior’ in Luke 1:47. She clearly understood herself to be a sinner if she admits to needing a savior.


She was given the grace to be "saved" completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. Protestants tend to emphasize God’s "salvation" almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Sacred Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact:

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25)



pertaining the Romans 3 Contradiction:

But what about "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23) and "if any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him" (1 John 1:8)? Wouldn’t "all" and "any man" include Mary? On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No faithful Christian would dare say that. Yet no Christian can deny the plain texts of Scripture declaring Christ’s full humanity either. Thus, to take 1 John 1:8 in a strict, literal sense would apply "any man" to Jesus as well.

The truth is Jesus Christ was an exception to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8. And the Bible tells us he was in Hebrews 4:15: "Christ was tempted in all points even as we are and yet he was without sin." The question now is: Are there any other exceptions to this rule? Yes—millions of them.

Both Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:9 deal with personal rather than original sin. (Romans 5 deals with original sin.) And there are two exceptions to that general biblical norm as well.

To understand it again, let us look at it


Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited.
Romans chapter three deals with personal sin because it speaks of sins committed by the sinner.
With this in mind, consider this: Has a baby in the womb or a child of two ever committed a personal sin? No.
To sin a person has to know the act he is about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his will in carrying it out.
Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of his intellect and will cannot sin.

So, there are and have been millions of exceptions to Romans 3:23 and 1 John 1:8.

Still, how do we know Mary is an exception to the norm of "all have sinned?" And more specifically, is there biblical support for this claim? Yes, there is much biblical support.

I gave them in the previous posts.

only Mary, in this case, immaculately concepted. 'Immaculate Conception'

Jesus' grandmother (Mother St Anne!!! very famous cathedral in Bukit Mertajam with the relics and bones of her remains from Jerusalem even) is not free from Original Sin, at that time, and yes, like you said, It is God's own seed. Jesus can be an exception too because He didn't came through the seed of Joseph. But to carry Jesus, free from sin, God's own seed must go into a PERFECT vessel, right?



to delve into why Tertullian said so, let us look at

Lk 21:25-28
Jesus said to his disciples:
"There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars,
and on earth nations will be in dismay,
perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves.
People will die of fright
in anticipation of what is coming upon the world,
for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And then they will see the Son of Man
coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
But when these signs begin to happen,
stand erect and raise your heads
because your redemption is at hand.

*Notice the orderliness in Universe gets reversed. in Genesis, Sun, earth, light of day and of dark, Adam and Eve creation. Now, nations uprising cause all the other subsequent events*

The Israelites regarded their Temple as a miniature replica or microcosm of the world; it was an architectural model of the universe fashioned by God. Conversely, the universe itself was a macrotemple, where God also dwells with His people. With the dawning of the New Covenant, God had to clear away the central symbol of the Old Covenant, the Temple. The Church is God’s new and spiritual Temple, built with the living stones of Christian believers (Mt. 16:18, Eph 2:20-22; 1 Pet 2:4-5)

But imbedded in Christ’s words are spiritual truths that point forward to His Second Coming in glory and the end of the visible world.

So how to make the Word incarnate?

and notice how God gives salvation to Mankind by reversing all these orders from OT to NT

its deep, its beautiful, and it definitely has essence. at least to me

well bro, take a good sleep tonight, try not worry too much. Not trying to convince you , but just to help you understand from another angle? I am poor when it comes to choice of words

This post has been edited by Jedi: Dec 5 2012, 01:33 AM

that post itself has subsequent explanation which I quoted.

the Mother of God

even though she is not divine, like the divine DIVINE Triune God:

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both.
Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God.
There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither.
Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature.
This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb.
Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation.
It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity.
In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.

Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.

The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.



anyway, I think thats enough? Because bro, like I said, we will find out when we enter Heaven.

No one said baby is pure. we humans are inclined to sin, be it baby or adult because of Adam and Eve. so Neg, cannot be applied to babies sins. They have not committed, whereas humans unknowingly commit sins (Venial Sin) and knowingly (Mortal Sin) Mary has to be free from Original Sin in order to carry the Word Incarnate. End of.

Exceptions of Romans 3: as I mentioned, can be referred to Mary too.
But if you insist everything is only about Christ Christ Christ, so be it.

The Bible is deep, beautiful and full of meaning and essence, Christ is the centre figure, love as a whole book, and marriage to God in mind. But to me bro, I do not want to dispute, I like it better when I look at whole, including the wine and branches within Christ, all minor details.

no more bro, Bec I pray you, theological discussions ..

have a good rest!

for why we have things not only biblical things, but keh liao (add spices) - Tradition and Magisterium, refer to this:
http://whycatholicsdothat.com/sola-scriptura-tradition/

For the Church, Its based on this:

In Matthew 16:19 Jesus gives this authority over his Church to Peter: "Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In Matthew 18:18, he gives the power to all the apostles: "Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven."

I also must remind you that the Church cannot change its doctrines no matter how badly some theologians may want it to or how loudly they claim it can. The doctrines of the Catholic Church are the deposit of faith revealed by Jesus Christ, taught by the apostles, and handed down in their entirety by the apostles to their successors. Since revealed truth cannot change, and since the deposit of faith is comprised of revealed truth, expressed in Scripture and Sacred Tradition, the deposit of faith cannot change.

in RCC, every priest has the authority of Christ to "loose" (absolve) penitents from their sins through the sacrament of confession in the name of Christ (Jn 20:21-22, 2 Cor 5:18-20). The priest also has the obligation, in rare cases when he sees no evidence of contrition or an unwillingness on the part of the penitent to stop committing sin, to "bind" someone in their sins by refusing to grant him absolution until he evinces genuine contrition.

This teaching is based on the promise Christ gave to His Church in John 16:13 that the Holy Spirit would “guide you to all truth.”
This singling out of Peter to bestow on him an authority which is later to be given to all the apostles shows Peter's preeminence within the apostolic college. What the apostles as a whole possessed as leaders of the Church, Peter possessed as an individual.
The New Testament also says that The Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, not scripture alone (1Timothy 3:15).
Paul says to hold fast to the Traditions he taught, either in writing or by word of mouth (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

the Pope’s primary mission is one of service to the people of God, to uphold the oneness of Christ’s Church.
It does not mean that the Pope is perfect. It also does not mean that the Pope knows everything.
Instead, “infallibility” only applies when the Pope speaks about solemn, official teachings on faith and morals.



in this, can comes many attacks from other ppl. But to me really, I see a beautiful thing:

Apostles Creed jointly created by the Apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, with each of the twelve contributing one of the articles, was already current at that time.

The earlier text evolved from simpler texts based on Matthew 28:19

When we say weekly in Mass: I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for the Creed Profession of Faith

It means, we believe in Universal Church. Catholic means Universal.

Therefore throughout the world, everyday, every mass, everywhere, the RCC have the same readings , gospels, but sermons are by priests themselves to comment on the readings. In it I find universalism, uniformity, and it does not break. Thats me.

Doesnt matter la. We are all God's Children. You said so.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Dec 5 2012, 02:20 AM

Bec u dont seem to get my earlier post on this part, I did some cut and paste over.
But what I want to say is akin the baby situation to Mary in context of exception from Romans 3 as it deals with personal sin.

and that part on Romans 3 FYI: is answered by a RCC-turned baptist-back to RCC theologian.

ok, u can present your part no prob, I have to understand why things are always such from your point of view

I mentioned it, the early Church Founders concluded it, the Councils , and now, the Doctrine of Congregation of Faith lead by Cardinal *I dont know who* of one of the ministry in Vatican.
What they conclude, however cannot change the Scripture which is the truth, only to bring us deeper to the Truth.

Depositum fidei - deposition of faith that is to be preserved.

Revelation of God is perfect and complete with the gospels and Jesus Christ. The private revelations received by visionaries cannot improve on Gospels and no one is obliged to believe in them. But since Holy Spirit leads us deeper to the truth, they can help us understand the gospel better.

For RCCs, Their authenticity however, is to be tested by the church. Uniformity. unlike Jehovah or Mormons, Oh today is this, oh tomorrow is that.


where got? Babies are not to be applied personal sin, but Original sin. I did not get it wrong.

True, you said it yourself. that lost all and gain Christ and be found in him - THIS
Its just we are seeing diamonds at different angles, to me I consider the body of Christ, which is the Church, which includes u me bros n sis alike, constituting His body, including saints, angels. I do not see anything wrong in it. I just like to classify and subclassify a general thing. All minor details

i.e if u say this person has diabetes, to me I would want to know Diabetes type? 1?2? Diabetes stage? Compensation?Subcompensation?Decompensation? With complications? if yes, what?

okok, no more. tired