Hello fellow WoW-ers.

With the Blizzard implementation of shared lockout and equivalent loot for 10 and 25 man raid in Catacalysm, I noticed a lot of big ICC 25man guilds are having issues with Catacalysm. In WotLK, guild tends to push for 25man for better loot, but with Catacalysm, it seems pointless to actually do 25man. With a good 10man, you do not have to worry about 25 player awareness, connection, etc.. Easier to manage 10 instead of 25. Does 1-2 additional loot worth the effort?

From my observation of my current guild, and been playing since day 1, plus have been in a lot of strong Asian/Aussie guild, I like to share some insights on what I am currently seeing in this 25man WotLK pre-Cata guild in post Catacalysm.

Shared lock out killer.
Just imagine you were in a guild with 30 guildies. Let say 23 are core and the rest are casual in and out. In WotLK, you can actually push for 25man raid + 10man raid. Even if you miss a 25man raid, you are still good for 10man. As guild leader, you maybe try 25man on Wednesday with a complete 25man competent raiders. However, on Thursday, the casuals can't make it. So, basically, you are short on 25man raid. You could split it up, but then, 3 of your core raiders got screwed. Other factors that may contribute to not able to form 25man raid are network issues, extremely undergeared, etc.. So, by splitting up, if the GMs are competent enough, having a good rotation system may keep everyone happy, which brings me to my next point...

Groupie.
Oh god, where to begin. I've been in tons of awesome guild that in the end crumbled to this. All raid leaders gotta watch this especially in Catacalysm. Relating back to WotLK, with a 25man team, almost everyone feels like a team (assuming proper rotation is in place etc). However, again, as my point previously, in Cata, you tend to do more 10man. If you do not have a good rotation system between the 10man group, you going head on into trouble. Imagine again, a 30+ man guild. 23 core and the rest are casual. So, the ideal maybe 2 groups, what about a third? If you do not have a proper rotation system, 2 things will happen.

1) Those in the 3rd+ group will not get enough raid time due to on and off from the casuals or left with undergeared guildies and probably ended up quiting WoW or gquit.
2) 2 groups in 1 guild scenario. You do not mix the rotation, everyone has their own 10man group, so, what's the purpose of not having your own guild?

This is what I am currently seeing in my guild, groupies are forming, good raiders with not enough raid time. A few have quit, I probably be next in line.

Well those are my insights/views on the matter. I've seen some good guild still manage to keep up the good 25man raid like Lithany of Fury of Thaurissan.

So, what are your views on this? and maybe as a GM, how do you handle your guild?

Adios.

Under normal circumstances, I'd avoid large and overly popular end-game raiding guilds.
Why? Too much competition for raid slots (too much benching), too much drama (most of them are underlying, you won't see them until they rear their ugly head), and the environment just isn't as conducive as those you would find in smaller casual guilds.

Word of advice for a GM: Keep your guild small and your members happy.

agreed. i too come from a huge reputable guild in jubei... once... too much drama... now i just play with my own 10 men, all real life friends and family members

well, there's still drama in small guilds

like the time i attempted to ninja a heal trinket, or the time i tried ninja a 1 hand dps sword, or the time i tried ninja some heal mail...

in the end i had them returned...

If your guild is 25man oriented than stick with 25man. No big deal actually.

10 and 25 has its pros and cons. Certain encounters would favor 10man due to more space for spreading out. But usually based on my own opinion the benefit of class stacking in 25man would be beneficial for end game encounters compared to 10man.

Nevertheless if your a casual guild, stick with 10man. This is where we are heading... from 40man to 25 to 10. Blizzards strategy to cater for the huge casual crowd is a huge cashcow that they cant deny themselves from.

This post has been edited by geno: Jan 7 2011, 04:22 PM

Were you in Vanilla when cutting edge content had to be 40mans?

Ray123 was in a guild which managed two 40man raids in Vanilla.

I was actually. But the good old days i like to refer to give no options but to go 40 thus why guilds are big. Nowadays, the options given do not force the need of a 25 and as I explained earlier, same loot for 10vs25, the line to have 25s just getting less and less... thus the need of big guild.

25m give 90VP instead of 70VP and more loot...
for guilds which are acustommed to 25m raiding, there's no difference...
drama would occur in both 10m or 25m depending on the members and how the leaders/ officers handle it...
no different...
btw u can do both 25m and 10m as long as u dun overprogress (except BH)...

I got to agree with you. But, I think it's really up to guild leader mentallity. Having a 25 pre Cata and suddenly gone to 10man in Cata probably ain't a good idea in a guild that have 25man to do runs.

Gonna share you something happened in my guild recently. We had a group running 25man, with undergeared and network issue people... and while this is going on, there's a 10man group that's considered geared and having good connection running as well. Basically, if those 10 people are not in the 25man group, they won't do 25... a.k.a. groupie symptom. In our pre-Cata raids, usually, when people disconnect or having issues in 25man, they get replaced with those not having issues. Fair I belive since it won't stop the guild progress.

However, post Cata, here where it is funny, guild leader, imo, should ask those 10 to break group and join/replace those undergeared and having connection issue but he himself is already in another 10man group, decided to call it quits until "further" connection issue is resolve and focus on 10man. So, instead of absorbing those 10 in or breaking the groupie mentallity, the leader choose to ignore that.

Now, thinking about it, the groupie mentallity is already a core factor in the guild and already rooted in, both in the mind of the officers, and in turn, the guildies themselves.

I don't think people are in the guild because of the teamwork anymore right now but probably due to the high level/perks achieved by all working together. It's a bit ironic.

That means you want the 10 man core to carry the balance 15 ppl? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Dont forget that.

Go on a merit system, if u fail/dc bench them or make them pay gold for each mistake. The gold earned can be for guild repairs or crafting/buying boe's for Tanks and Healers.

If u pressure the 10man to split up especially if they are good friends, u wont see them remaining there for long.

This post has been edited by geno: Jan 8 2011, 10:45 AM

now days people make guilds with 999 members only to gain gold benefits, they have about 200-300g deposited in gbank every hour or 2, so most guilds are big as hell but only run a 10m raid because the gmaster wants to eat free gold form members.

Hahahaha. Was about to say that.

wow people always compared vanilla i have no idea. oh yeah reminds me of the garr fight. 30 mins assigning targets and sapphiron too you know where cc'ers have to stare at their target in order not to cc others targets and turn into a wipefest.

Hahaha, good one soitsuagain. Remembered those good old days. Anyways, I was hoping to give my guild a chance but today i gquit coz they selling "BoE" items to guildies hahaha. Funny, their repair bills come from guildies and they pull that kinda crap... i was going, you stupid officer rofl. Also talks of few people gonna leave also ongoing too. Well, don't say that I didn't warn them. Bye bye 25man <Lanun>, may ur greed be your downfall hehehe

Good Lord.. More qq ing.

I'm the GM of <Lanun>, It's embarrassing to actually need to come forward in public forum to defend guild integrity. /sigh


At 50% of Market Price & these are on BoE that drops in ANOTHER raid grp. U can even get them for FREE if u're a major contributor (guild farmers/crafters/exceptional player), which he was actually, until he removed himself from the post with the excuse of 'don't want that responsibility anymore'. Good luck finding guild that gives free BoE Epics to everyone (BoE Blues, enchants, gems are FREE though). Maybe you should just form one.


The 5% extra money perks really not that much. The gold we have in our gbank atm comes from fund raising activities & planning that has been put up since the guild was formed. Since it took a lot of administrative work to even put that together, it's only fair that the GM has the privilege to choose which Guild Ranks are entitled to guild repair (he was privileged until he removed himself from the position). We didn't even practice Guild Repair before this, it's just that now with the Guild Repair achievement in place, this option were being introduce. Making guild repair available to everyone would bankrupt the guild in 1 week.


Good luck with your next guild Mousecat, letme know if u need me to write a recommendation letter to your new GM.

Regards

This post has been edited by ArmRule: Jan 11 2011, 06:58 PM

Ok. I guess it has become personal for you hehehe.

Seriously, guild integrity? I have no real time to argue with you, it's your guild. If anyone reading this forum doesn't believe me, just create a character on Thaurissan and ask any guildies pre/post Cata on my contribution to the guild, my ethics, my focus for guild betterment, etc.. If they say I am what the Guild Leader claim, so be it but i'm pretty sure you get a different view, don't let my rant here or the Guild Leader qq judge me. Let them speak for themselve.

Your recommendation? Who do you think you are that other guilds need YOUR RECOMMENDATION? hehehehehe. I don't work FOR you. I work WITH you for the guild.

Look, I've been in and out a few awesome guild in my experience in WoW. None have I left with bad ties since honestly, these awesome guild are awesome coz of great leadership, like most good guild have. Your guild is the first.

Again, if you guys want a recommendation, seriously, ask any players that been running instance with me, or again, even Lanun guildies themselve. Heck, weird isn't it when your guildies speak highly of me and you're the only one saying otherwise... hmm.. weird.

Anyways, I think this is already off topic. Seriously, good luck with the guild. Since this thread not a topic for "How Lanun Guild Leader is a tard", I probably start a new one later for personal attack session. Btw, good move banning me from Lanun Facebook for commenting on reason I left guild... hehehe.

This post has been edited by manoque: Jan 10 2011, 01:57 PM

Try http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/1182658/

Bigger audience

Have a nice day.

Sorry, I'll check when I am at home. My company blocks retarded troll post.

I think the Cata raiding system is good for small guilds like mine. My guild used to have 10-15 good players, and the rest were so-so. We could do regular 25man, but no way we could carry the rest and pull of hard modes. Since ICC, I've only been doing 10man. 25 man is too much of a hassle with loot distribution, attendence, class composition, etc etc etc. Then again, I'm not a top-tier hardcore raider.

yup this is good for smaller guilds who always have short manpower...
while the bigger guilds would have the bigger rosters for consistent 25m raids...

OT: about the whole guild drama fiesta...
i think that guild selling BoE at 50% to raiders is fine...
after all u would loot it either by some looting system which would cost u a longer wait for loots...
money in the game can be farmed with ease, there is no welfare epics imho...
i always believe that it is the raider's responsibility to farm the materials for consumables in raid (personal food, flasks, potions and repairs) as well as the needed optimizer (prof etc)...
the guild is just a mean for u to get to the loots and whatever the guild earned could be used to fund the raid food, raid flask (new) and the vent (it aint cheap)...

p.s: i would rather pay gold for loot rather than spend my EP just for loot (if the guild is using EPGP)...

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Jan 10 2011, 02:52 PM

I think it depends on ppl number and your previous setup. Like most poster stated, if you done 25 before, unless there is ppl quiting, you should keep continuing. Yes, 10 man better to organize and manage and keep your guild to enough crew to run 10man so that everyone can participate.

I can imagine why



BoE epics that drops in any given raid with members that could use them as upgrades are of course FREE for that grp raid members. We are talking about BoE Epics that drops from OTHER raid grps, without a class that can optimise the gear or already has the item. Raid leaders agreed to put those in Gbank (without compensation) for other members to acquire at cheaper price or foc in a practise to help others to gear up faster.

This post has been edited by ArmRule: Jan 10 2011, 02:58 PM

just wondering, wut are ur looting system now?
i would agree on the optimizing of gears (like during icc, dun give arp trinket to ret paladins over warrior, rogue and hunters)

We used to run EPGP for our 25-man (2 grps running simultaneously). Heading new into Cata, we are still short of geared members for 25 man grp. The main concern however is the line stability when running 25 man. We've tried it and it was really really bad and involving some core raiders who would otherwise be fine in a 10 man grp (and yes, that's with tunnelling). I'm hoping that the stability issue will be made more manageable in the near future, but for the time being, we sticking to smaller 10 man grps.

As it's only a 10-man, looting is never an issue. It's more a less on loot council now for individual grps. For eg, if a healer received an upgrade in the previous week, the following week he/she will pass on for the other 2.. things like that.

ooo try wowtunnel, pretty decent for me

I have to agree and disagree in some of the comments.

I would have to agree with the comments given if it has been guild norm for the process for BoE loot charges. If previously, there are no such rule, and all loot were free for BoE, the changes doesn't make sense if it is for raiders and in for a guild. For example, since we focusing on this Lanun guild, you guys have 4-5 10man group, group 2 got a loot which is required by a guildies in group 5, wouldn't it be correct to give to that other group member is no other required for his/her group progression? It seemed logical.

However, I do agree with the comments if this is this guild norm, which is not.

---

Added on January 10, 2011, 3:34 pmROFL another personal attack... what company you work for again and your salary compared to mine? Hahaha. Please laa, don't compare things not related to WoW. Stop being childish.

---

Added on January 10, 2011, 3:35 pmGamepath or the new highpingbuster is quite good. It's more of the ISP and hardware settings imo.

This post has been edited by manoque: Jan 10 2011, 03:35 PM

Gamepath sucks! use wowtunnel better. well its better if u paid for the service tho..

This post has been edited by urakei: Jan 10 2011, 03:54 PM

I think we should put this in another topic, it depends on the ISP actually since I am running on streamyx 4mbps, gamepath at average 200-250ms.

SORRY FOR TYPING IN CAPS AND USING MALAY LANGUAGE IS MORE RELEVANT BECOZ THIS IS HAPPEN TO GUILD NAME 'LANUN'.'LANUN' IS A MALAY WORD..THEN FOR SURE YOU GUYS IS A MALAY SAME LIKE ME.. SO THIS IS THE MESSAGE TO THOSE WHO REALLY CARE ABOUT WOW IN THEIR LIFE!!

MELAYU SAMA MELAYU MAU GADOH...MENDA NI BULEH BAWAK MASUK KUBOQ KA...SORANG BUAT KEPALA TAU SORG LAGI BUAT BAGUIH NK HANDLE GUILD..MASING-MASING ADA ANAK BINI BOLEH PIKIAQ SENDIRI..OTAK LETAK KAT KEPALA LUTUT KA..TUA SAJA PERANGAI MACAM BUDAK2...



SEE YOU AGAIN...

Hahaha. Nothing related to personal from me dudeinwow, just highlighting what's right and wrong and it's not Malay guild laa, got other races too daaaa.

This post has been edited by manoque: Jan 10 2011, 04:30 PM

dude dun get race into this whole discussion...

All guild should have a strategy to channel resources towards guild progression. Here's my tip.

1) When raids are on farm status then MAXIMIZE this time for guild to earn gold, selling mounts/achieve/Selling unwanted BoE's. Gold earned by the guild at this time is VERY VERY important for next tier progression. E.G. Buying mats to craft all possible gear or even buying BoE from AH for your main tanks/off tanks/healers.

2) During raid progression, mistakes by guildies will be penalized in ep 1st then gold then MOAR gold in exponential effect then finally replaced. The gold that the guild received from there will be channeled back as guild repair fees/free flask.

3) During progression, all BoE's should be handed out to outstanding players mainspec(raid performance, attendance, loyalty) without charge. If they are buying for their offspec, 50% of AH prices apply. All BoE must be equipped on the spot.

Tl/DR: Dont make gold out from guildies during progression status. Help them to progress and you will be on farm status sooner than ever to make more gold for your guild's next tier progression. Plan ahead to avoid loot drama.

This post has been edited by geno: Jan 11 2011, 10:43 AM

agreed with Geno.

This post has been edited by Xerve: Jan 11 2011, 02:07 PM

Back on topic, I do think that Cata will be the fall of 25man. Already you're seeing so many guilds focusing on 10man instead of 25man as compared to the start of WOTLK. There is no more hype to killing a boss in 25man anymore because everybody else is at the 10man progression thread. My guild which has been doing 25man from BC till the end of WOTLK is now only doing 10mans.

so, last time, vanila wow, is 40 man raid hor?

then, with burning crusade, got 25 man raid?

now, with cata, got 10 man raid oh?

so ... in the future ... 5 man raid ?O_O

You ber-trollol la.. jangan emo pasal WoW.. nanti sakit mental tau.. macam orang kena sawan.. bercaps lagi.. apedah...

Like most guilds, mine anticipated this problem and called for a meeting (all guildies were welcome to attend) to discuss our guild's future raiding direction.

Our guild leader was comparing the pros and cons between 10 men for 'easier progression' or 25 men for 'guild unity'. He was worried that if 10 men groups form, elites will be taken and fought over while stragglers will be left behind with less chance for improvement. The choice at that time was to go on with 25 men raids like what we used to do during TBC and WotLK, unfortunately into Cata, the guild started fragmenting. Some left because they wanted to progress faster on 10 men raids. From a guild that was almost strong enough to do 2x25 men raids, we dropped to barely enough for 1x 25 men raid. Added to the equation that some healers were not geared enough for raid + schedule inconsistancies, the guild has decided to drop down to 3x10 men raids. 1 weekend group and 2 weekday groups. Loot that dropped were just rolled for, final say remains with the RL just in case some keep winning.

I won't say that the change has affected us, its the wanting to take advantage of the situation that has affected the guild but then again, its just a matter of getting used to the new raiding system. It will blow over and be taken as the norm.

TBH I reckon 10 man is easier to manage..

it just provide the guild with flexibility and option...
my guild still run 25m and when u kill a boss in 25, u can proceed to kill it in 10m for extra loots as well...

note: i'm a casual in guild now though i just helped a guildie's 10m last nite as he needed an extra dpser

lol what a thread. i wouldnt say its a downfall for the 25m guilds as u can see most of the top progressed guild are still from 25m, its really depends on which one works the best for u or ur guild

11 droods is awesome <3

pro shit going to lvl ma druid

[quote=manoque,Jan 10 2011, 03:30 PM]
I have to agree and disagree in some of the comments.

I would have to agree with the comments given if it has been guild norm for the process for BoE loot charges. If previously, there are no such rule, and all loot were free for BoE, the changes doesn't make sense if it is for raiders and in for a guild. For example, since we focusing on this Lanun guild, you guys have 4-5 10man group, group 2 got a loot which is required by a guildies in group 5, wouldn't it be correct to give to that other group member is no other required for his/her group progression? It seemed logical.

However, I do agree with the comments if this is this guild norm, which is not.

---

Added on January 10, 2011, 3:34 pm
ROFL another personal attack... what company you work for again and your salary compared to mine? Hahaha. Please laa, don't compare things not related to WoW. Stop being childish.




You know what when it comes to game, its game, but when personal stuff spills in i think its going over board, You are definitely childish. Comparing salary? who gives a damn about ur salary? so great ah ur gaji more? gaji more but behavior childish also no use. So ur position in real life equals that in game? so if u r a the boss in real life u r the boss in the game?

u're juz pissed cuz u think u r not appreciated

@manoque
dude you sound like a sensible person
advice -> there are something’s that you just put in forums like salary and job
Its childish to do so.
do remember …game is a game …..there is no reason to get so worked up about it

Everything's fine in 25-man guilds until 12-15 people start to believe that they are better than the other 15-20, leading to the inevitable clique forming. Works great for those on one side of the fence, not so much for those on the other side.

Real life experience in two different guilds on two different servers.

Cataclysm just made it much easier for groups of people to split off with little to no repercussions.

Currently on an extended leave, possibly even a permanent one, from the game. Got more time now for other things that matter more than playing a video game with spotty teenagers and college students with behavioural complexes

This post has been edited by tritonite: Jan 12 2011, 12:15 AM

Thats the benefit for 25man, class stacking..

Stars downed yogg zero light (when its quite impossible to kill without exploit) with 5 locks.. they wanted to go with 7. Paragon stacked pallys for H LK for aura mastery rotation and vile spirit absorbs.. now 11 druids for h nefarian lolz

Cant wait to see what they will do for the Sinestra kill..

yup...
still remember the soul stone abuse back then as well lol...
good use of mechanic imho

Oh...I think you guys skipped a few thread before about my salary/work comments. If you read previously on Durhaka post, my ex GL, there was a statement made by him personally assaulting me on my work qualification actually. It was regarding the fact that at my office, we could not browse gaming website and he mentioned something sarcastic to that comment, which i do take personally. Since I know Durhaka in real life and he knows me in real life, his posting was just wrong.

So, that's where the salary/work thing came out. I shoudn't have stood to his level I guess and that was my mistake. Anyways, I was upset when he started attacking my work and not the game. Unfortunately, with all the miss reading expected in normal forum, that tend to happen Again, hope you guys don't take it the wrong way, it was meant to defend his sarcastic remarks which like I said, should have been ignored.

Anyways, let's just forget about this Lanun guild since it is no longer a concern to me but I probably still use them as examples hehehehe.

This thread was meant for discussing 25man guilds structure and what not. I apologize if anyone feels bad especially those in the Lanun guild but I refer to them as that is what I have experienced in the game and how some of the guild members perceive the guild.

Again, the intention is to get feedback on the matter and as most posters here, have slightly achieve it. Hope more views can be given on this.

---Edited---
Laku juga yar thread nie? Ada drama, ada news, ada great feedback. Can start selling goreng pisang laa after this.

This post has been edited by manoque: Jan 12 2011, 06:16 PM

/sigh

unbelievably retarded.

Hi Am@Durhaka, GL of Lanun. First of all, apologize if the thread offended you or your guild. As previously a Lanun, the purpose of this thread is try get views on people opinion on 25man raiding for use of Lanun. Since I am no longer an officer or member, I am sorry if the initial post offended your guild. As an ex-officer, i do have one advise which you may choose to take or not.

Do a /g and /o and ask your guildies, officers and group leaders on any major issues with their 10man raid. It's best to get your guildies and officers insights to help improve the guild.

I'm unbelievably retarded so what do I know.

Good luck with raiding and pls say Hello to the officers and guildies for me.

drama. popcorn.

10m is the future guys. embrace it.

Who knows 1 day it will be a 3man instance, 1 tank, 1 healer and a dps hehehe.

/popcorn