Hi, all the home theater elites here, mind to share which surround sound format do you guys prefer?

Dts ... Sound larger to me

Neither one. I prefer DTS-HA Master Audio.


Then again, it all depends on the original mixing. A proper mixed DTS can even sound better than some of poorly recorded lossless format.

Dolby True-HD best, DTS-HD too noise..

For audio format, I prefer DTS-HD MA than Dolby TrueHD

For matrix upmixing, I prefer Dolby Prologic than DTS Neo

For Headphone, I prefer Dolby headphone

For virtual speaker/surround, I dont like virtual surround

i prefer DTS. sounds clearer to me.

Yeah...it depends on a lot of things..personal preference, hardware, software..etc

To know which is best...play the source and decide yourself..haha..
Then play a different source and decide again...sometimes, different movies give different results.

Dolby has more detail and punchy bass.

DTS has higher treble and tend to be louder overall.

I prefer Dolby because the surround effects are really good.

Sadly, nowadays more titles come with DTS-HD and fewer are TRUE-HD.

LPCM FTW!!! No need any cr@p decoding and it is as pure as it gets. LOL!!!

***CABUTS***

DTS bitrate is typically much higher than Dolby (1.5mbps vs 640kbps) and tends to be louder.

Of course the new HD audio formats are better than both, TrueHD ftw

yeah! LPCM! as RAW as it gets!

Linear PCM baby! Don't believe me listen to Black Hawk Down Soundtrack on Bluray!

To my untrained ear and unrefined system (read : cheapo speakers), DTS/DTSMA sound meatier and more orgasmic.

action movies = dts
dialogue movies = dd

Not quite agree with you. Try listen to Abandoned in LPCM. Dialogue sounds unbalanced (too loud) & very artificial than music effect.


Still want to stress that all depends on original source mixing.

I'm gonna disagree with you now too.. try listening to me in LPCM!

back to topic... I usually just put everything in DTS which I agree is louder, makes action movies (which makes up most of the movies I watch) nicer to watch.. hehe.. come to think of it, I've never really done any testing to compare the two... usually Dolby Digital sounds 'softer' though I never paid any real attention to both.

Technically both TrueHD and DTS HD MA should sound the same since both are lossless.

But really you guys can't use different movies or concerts to compare (because the mix can be diff). Only way to properly evaluate is if same movie contains both TrueHD and DTS HD MA and you play both to compare.

Stereo is the best

JAV = mono

Depends on the encoded.

Some movie great in Dolby and some great on DTS.

Even though DTS normally more louder but louder does not means better.

In most situation, DTS do produce more noisy sound due to it over high tune treble.

DTS has been greatly improved in DTS HD, I find it sound smoother a lot and balance now.

Sorry I can't accept LPCM quality, I don't care how pure they are, maybe they are too pure for me

How about THX??

most home entertainment formats come with
either Dolby or DTS.

but it seems more blu-rays come with only Dolby True-HD 5.1 and Dolby Digital 5.1 tracks.. apart from the legacy DD 2.1 and LPCM 48kHz.

i like Dolby for its lower frequency dynamics
however for dialogue normalization, i find DTS is better

It is a Lucasfilm quality standard.

In order for stuff to get the THX logo, it needs to meet the THX standards..

Think of it like Example SIRIM logo, or ISO logo stuff like that...meaning to have that logo needs to meet certain requirement..

Anyway, you can read all abt it here:
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/

This post has been edited by azbro: Dec 2 2010, 06:18 PM

To add to what azbro said: THX is not a sound format. Even though it's a sign that the DVD has met the THX standards, it's just about meeting the standards. Even a mono movie can meet a THX standard.

With BD, most studios have forgone sending their discs to meet THX standards because most often they are really good. THX still has value when it comes to cinemas.
Hasn't been the case in the last year or so. Most BDs now are in DTS-HDMA - Fox, Universal, Disney, Lionsgate. Paramount and Warner sometimes go with DTS-HDMA and sometimes Dolby TrueHD.

One huge advantage of DTS HDMA over Dolby TrueHD is that the DTS 1.5Mbps data is encoded with the DTS HDMA data. So if you only have legacy decoders, you automatically get DTS 1.5 and if you have newer decoders, you get DTS HDMA. With Dolby TrueHD, it's encoded separately and you have to choose which audio tracks you like to listen to - Dolby Digital or Dolby TrueHD. Most Warner BDs will automatically play the movie - a great feature - but if it comes with Dolby TrueHD, it'll play the feature in Dolby Digital. You have to manually change it to Dolby TrueHD before you can really enjoy the movie's soundtrack.


fuad

THX system is not a recording technology, and it does not specify a sound recording format.

THX and Dolby Cinema are in the same category, matrix decoder to emulate best possible surround experience.

Dolby Prologic and DTS-Neo:6 is another category, this ones are for upmixing. i.e 2.0 -> 5.0, 2.1 -> 7.1 etc.

DD, DD+, Dolby True-HD, DTS, DTS-ES, DTS-HD HR, DTS-HD MA are encoding technologies.

every encoder and decoder muz meet the requirements set out by the individual licensing companies.

all products must be done by the following procedures:
self testing>application for testing>approval>(commonality application)>licensing>royalty

i myself have done testing for Dolby and DTS related products.
to say, i prefer Dolby because its certification procedure is simple, straightforward and easy to decipher. DTS on the other hand is a total pain in the ass.


Example of Dolby actual test documentations.. sorry cannot show insides.. confidential~



This post has been edited by lee_lnh: Dec 2 2010, 06:52 PM

For me i prefer Dolby Digital 640kbps extracted core from TrueHD,

DTS core extracted from Master Audio cant hear any huge improvement compare to Dolby.

PCM is almost uncompressed audio format.

DTS HDMA and True HD is loss-less compress format.

DD+ and DTS is lossy compress format.

Technically, PCM should be more superior (bit rate can reach up to 6Mbps).

This post has been edited by ariff_tech: Dec 2 2010, 10:33 PM

Should be DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 (which include DTS Core: 5.1 inside) Nowadays, less and less BDs got True-HD.

For some reasons, I prefer the sound of TrueHD over DTS-HD MA in the Bluray discs that I have heard . Too bad there's less and less TrueHD.

seeing as both are lossless compression codecs, what you are hearing may be mixing differences. If it's the same mix there can't - logically - be any difference.

reason: trend for comin 2011 dolby getting less and less is because of royalty issue~

dolby do not charge application & licensing fee.. but charges royalty per unit item sold to market..

remember that the encoding is lossless~ but in the end the decoder and its hardware play the most vital role to accurately reproduce. Nothing is fixed, everything has tolerance~

there are many difference:
major ones are such as THD+N vs freq, THD+N vs level, SNR, dynamic range compression, frequency response with/without emphasis, dialogue normalization, downmixing coefficient, speaker remapping.
only those possess high quality audio system and a keen hearing can discern until the very detail~

This post has been edited by lee_lnh: Dec 3 2010, 02:13 AM

yeah,
dont forget the speaker.

I thought we are comparing both formats using the same system? IMHO, it is all depends on how the studio recorded it. Bad recordings: TF2 (muffled vocal, heavy bass), Ip Man (muffled vocal), Avatar (25HZ LFE cut-off), Rambo 4 (hollow sound) to name a few.

+1. Just exactly what I expressed in earlier post. It all boils down to original studio mixing.

That reminds me of the disappointing 2012's AQ. When those debris from volcano eruption in Yellowstone hit the earth, it is like tofu. Yikes!

Back to work on my client's project 1st

Saving Private Ryan is a brilliant example of a natural sounding DTS HD soundtrack... not just the obvious war scenes...but the sound of the american flag flapping... stepping on grass... brilliant

same system.. but dolby decoder is independent of dts decoder. How can it perform the same? and depend on the system hardware configuration, the way the decoder software parameters are written, it affects the actual output.

at output stage, same system only share the DAC and amp, of course include same grounding and pinjack~

I like King Kong soundtrack presented in DTS-HD Master mixing. Those special effects just put your seat right in the middle of the jungle. Reference quality audio.

I used to like DTS because it sounded louder

Then I started to realise that DTS sounded sharper and not as soft or natural like Dolby... anyone has the same experience? Maybe it is just the source encoding and not the technology itself.

Feels like the same sharper LCD vs softer Plasma debate...

Rubbish in rubbish out

DVD
DTS = 1536Kbps(Full) 768Kbps(Half) @ 48Khz @ Up to 6.1
Dolby = 448Kbps or 640kbps @ 48Khz @ 5.1

BluRay/HDDVD
DTS-HD = Up to 24.5Mbps @ 96Khz @ Up to 7.1
Dolby TrueHD = Up to 18Mbps @ 96Khz @ Up to 7.1
LPCM = Up to 27.6Mbps @ 192Khz @ Up to 7.1

the choice is yours.....

This post has been edited by darkanbil: Dec 4 2010, 01:14 AM

DVD Dolby limited at 448kbps, only Blu-Ray 640kbps and HDDVD at 504kbps

for whose AVR support HDMI with HD Audio Pass-throw decoding go Lossless or LPCM.

normally u guys choose DTS/DOBLY by the BD/DVD or DB player or AMP ?

what r u trying to ask?

That is what I called it high treble....makes ur ear pain..

choose the soundtrack through the disc menu, or press the dedicated audio button on the remote control to change.

This post has been edited by Skylinestar: Dec 4 2010, 08:53 AM

Example when u put a DVD in ur DVD player. In movie title u will have a SETUP option to let u choose. English DTS or English 5.1 rite ?

And ur amplifier will have DTS or DOBLY (all like of surround).

So let say if u want to choose DTS surround.
U will select in ur DVD player or ur amplifier ?

Hope u guys understand coz i dunno how to clarified it too

select in ur DVD player, not ur amplifier

So what should i set for the AMP ?

You don't have set nothing at AVR. It will auto decode what ever type of supported audio from dvd player

Exactly right. If the encoder did not use the right parameters, the output will be affected. Therefore s/he must know what s/he is doing.

The fact that Dolby TrueHD and DTS HDMA are lossless codec says something. If they are not outputting exactly what was given as the input, they wouldn't pass the lossless test. Wouldn't the AES have been alerted by now if either one doesn't pass the lossless test?

By the way, using LPCM on BDs is good except that it takes up the bandwidth. If the feature is short and visually uncomplicated, it's fine.


fuad

next we are going to have BMW Vs Benz

And then BMW M vs Benz AMG

This post has been edited by azbro: Dec 4 2010, 02:42 PM

Analog Stereo

Untouch Audio signal, superior than any audio codec.

Good one,mate

^^^ I beg to differ... it can be a lossless bad encoding as well. Garbage in garbage out... you get the same exact bit by bit garbage but that doesn't make you happier

So is this a characteristic of DTS encoding that it will hike the treble? Hence you will always feel it is louder?

This post has been edited by specuvestor: Dec 7 2010, 02:53 PM

OK 1st solution is assuming ur using BD/DVD player HDMI 1.3 with CEC function > goin through a CEC able amplifier + surround speakers 5.1/7.1 > then to TVin order for the sound to come out in surround and TV mutes

1) set a player to output bistream through HDMI (either Auto or non-PCM)
TURN OFF "Mix" or "Secondary audio" options well

2) set at amplifier or TV HDMI option = speaker to "amp only". Not "amp+tv".
juz set either one.. CEC will handle it.

3) make sure amp is set at DIRECT. Not STEREO.

4) amp speaker layout 5.1/7.1/7.1 with rear surround A & B, or individually configured speakers (Denon amp have tis function)
coz some amp have upmixing or even prologic/dts-neo:6 kick in


2nd solution if dont have CEC

at step 2) set at both amp and TV

then during movie/content option. select either Dolby/DTS


3rd solution if using coaxial or optical to amp (which support up to 5.1 only)
this 1 is not so accurate... but for Sony BD player.. these are the guidelines

keep amp and TV settings like previous

at player set Coax/SPDIF to Dolby/DTS and never PCM. some have combined option.. some seperates

a) for BD player set "mixing" on.. to enable re-encode into bitstream

b) if "mixing" is set off. SPDIF Non-supported bitstream is decoded at 7.1ch codec and output as LPCM 5.1

---

Added on December 9, 2010, 1:52 amalso still depend on DAC and op-amp performance

i.e SAMSUNG C5900/C6500 uses cirrus logic 4353c, SONY S370/S470/S570/S770 uses Wolfson WM8524

2 different maker... go check their spec sheet already shows different performance
but final performance is influenced by many other performance such as EMC, power line noise/ripple, DVD/BD drive capability~

This post has been edited by lee_lnh: Dec 9 2010, 01:52 AM

I think that guy is playing the pirated dvd, usually the rirated dvd DTS sound isn't the true DTS made in the DTS studio, those pirated dvd DTS audio is made by their own from Dolby, they just simply make the sound level higher than normal level. Please support original DVD and BD!

Original DVD - DTS some title also generate more high treble and it became noise after all.

This post has been edited by Andrewtst: Dec 9 2010, 09:34 AM

the correct term to define this symptom is called "dialogue normalization".

Dialogue or vocal, which has the usual range of 400 Hz to 4kHz is not attenuated, That why DTS often sound "sharper" in the "trebel" region.

for Dolby formats the dialogue normalization is usually between -27dB to -31dB.
for DTS formats is 0dB.

Thanks this is interesting. But why do you need dialogue normalization in a DVD or Blu ray? -27dB is quite a lot isn't it? by reducing vocal range volume, doesn't the high pitch and low base becomes too loud??

DialNorm - Dialog Normalization - is a setting on Dolby's codecs made so that people without proper speakers or those who are viewing programs amongst sound sensitive neighbors can view movies intelligibly. Meaning, they can hear the dialog without playing it too loud. It is a useful feature but the problem is the default setting - as I understand it - is always ON and it is embeded into the digital bitstream. You need a receiver that can turn off this feature when it is decoding it to be able to hear the master mix. So if you have a basic HTiB, you can't turn DialNorm off.

DTS has a similar feature BUT it is only employed on the decoder, that is to say it is not part of the bitstream. So any DTS decoder will decode the master mix. And if you have sensitive neighbors, they'll suffer. You can turn on DTS' attenuation feature but again, only receivers with such feature can do it.

So which would you prefer? Automatically listening to the master mix or not?


fuad

Thanks for the explanations. I would think mastermix make more sense? Yet ironically this makes DTS sounds sharper while Dolby sounds more natural. So this has nothing to do with SPECIFICALLY how DTS or Dolby master the soundtrack?

Wouldn't the neighbour suffer more from sudden jump in high pitch or loud LFE, when we increase volume in Dolby to hear the vocal clearer?

Thanks

The DTS/Dolby encoder (machine) doesn't master the soundtrack. The soundmixer does.

When the mix is ready to be encoded, the encoding engineer gets to work. HE is the one who makes sure that the right settings on the encoder is used.

Back when DTS first launched for DVD, DTS encoding engineer themselves worked on each DVD release. There were evidence that the mix was different than the one used for Dolby. But now, everyone can use a DTS/Dolby encoder. Some in hardware and some in software.

No, it wouldn't. A simple example of DialNorm is in the form of Astro broadcast. If you've ever watched any movie on HBO/Cinemax/Star Movies you'll notice that it sounds different - that the loudest section is not as it is on DVD/BD. That's because volume attenuation has been applied. This attenuation is applied for both SD and HD versions of HBO. The reason is still the same - for people who do not have 5.1 systems.


fuad

Thanks much for the education. To be precise, what I mean is if we have the same master or sound mix or analogue source, will it sound the same if it goes through DTS or Dolby encoding? Or is there a lot of subjectivity or how the encoding engineer wants the LFE or the surround channel to sound like?

That I can understand why you need dialnorm but like my original question few posts back: "why do you need dialogue normalization in a DVD or Blu ray?" Isn't that redundant to have in DVD or blu ray where there isn't in between commercials etc?

This post has been edited by specuvestor: Dec 14 2010, 06:28 PM

Is there a way to turn off Dial Norm in the AVR?

I noticed many titles will auto apply Dial Norm, but don't know if it is something that can be turned off or not.

If it is DTS HDMA and Dolby TrueHD, the output MUST sound the same as the input. Otherwise they are not truly lossless codecs.

If it's lossy DTS and Dolby Digital, it won't sound the same as the master. It's like comparing a track of 12kbps MP3 and the original track on CD.

The engineers CAN tweak the settings if they are told to do so. But generally they don't because it's not their job to remix the soundtrack at the encoding stage.

Dialnorm is a mandatory setting on Dolby Digital and perhaps Dolby TrueHD. You can't remove it. You can however set it correctly.

DialNorm and volume attenuation are two separate settings. DiaNorm enables dialogue to be at a consistent level/volume so it can be understood better. Volume attenuation limits the dynamic range of a program. They are used together on Astro's broadcast on all channels. On DVDs/BDs, dynamic range limiter is never used either as a default setting on the decoder or as an embedded metadata.

What lee_lnh was correctly explaining about DialNorm and what I fail to properly explain is this:
1) Dialog on the master stem (pre-encode) is ALWAYS around 400Hz to 4kHz frequency.
2) Dialog is leveled at -27dB. That's not subtracting 27dB. That's at level -27dB.
3) The dynamic range of digital sound for movies is 105dB. 0dB is the peak and is actually very loud, where it could be the sound of the thundering alien horn in Spielberg's War of The Worlds. So the dynamic range starts at -100dB and go all the way up to 5dB, where dialog is normally set at level -27dB.

Back when Dolby created Dolby Digital, they envisioned that their codec will be used for HDTV (yes, it was back in the 90s). Back then, commercials and programs had limited dynamic range so the dialog in commercials always get close to 0dB, say like -4dB. This gives them more impact (loud) but not giving them enough latitude to get even louder, which is often used in movies. Because of these differences, Dolby basically decides that since the sound mixers in the movie industry always put dialog at -27dB, commercials must follow suit since they are not the main feature. Instead of pumping up the dialog in TV programs from -27dB to -4dB and have very little dynamic range at the top, the Dolby Digital codec will force the loud dialog in commercials down to level -27dB so that if you go from the movie to commercial to the movie again, you don't have to fiddle with the volume at all. So DialNorm became a mandatory metadata setting where dialog will always stay consistent at a set volume.

DTS don't feel they should make their dialog normalization metadata a mandatory embedment because DTS assumes that sound mixers for movies and commercials would know how to mix their levels properly. So if the encoding engineers don't put it in the metadata or forget to do so, what encoding engineers put into the DTS encoder will come out exactly as the input. If there are errors, the error can be traced at the encoding stage.

The problem with DialNorm as a mandatory setting is that if you want to tweak the setting, you can. The default setting on consumer DD decoder is at -31dB. So if the encoding engineer set it to -27, the 4dB difference means that the volume will be lowered by 4dB. If the engineer forget to reset the encoder from -20 to -31 for 10 movies, the result would mean the sound for all 10 of those movies will be lower by 11dB. Not only that, the DialNorm metadata can also be tweaked by broadcasters. So if the DD was encoded correctly but the broadcasters didn't know what they are doing and set one program at -25 while another at -27, the viewers will hear one program normally and the other too low.

Turning off DialNorm is not a standard feature of AVRs. If you got one that doesn't have it, you're out of luck. I got a DVD that is encoded so low (DialNorm -5?), I had to pump up the volume to near reference level just to hear it and then have to remember NOT to play anything else until I lower the volume again.


fuad

Thanks for the info. It explains the purpose of the Dialnorm well but I am not too sure about the execution as it depends on non-DD encoders (like advertisers) to ensure the adjustment is made for Dialnorm.

If I read you correctly, if we adjust for the Dialnorm, both DTS and DD lossless encoding should sound exactly the same with the same source?

Is that what you experienced in movies that have both DTS and DD options?

If the ads are in PCM stereo, the broadcaster still has to digitize everything including the soundtrack. During the digitization, the audio signal can be analyzed and a value for DialNorm can be suggested. Then the value is used as the DialNorm metada when the ads's audio are encoded.

Advertizers are normally given a specific set of audio and video parameters that their tapes must meet otherwise the broadcaster cannot run the ads.

Well for DTS HDMA, if you don't put in the DialNorm metadata or you forgot to put it in, then output is the same as the source.

For Dolby TrueHD, you must make sure that DialNorm is adjusted according to the DialNorm level indicated on the master before output can sound the same as input. Otherwise the settings might be off.

Hard to say with DVDs as most have one or the other and not both.


fuad

There are some recent DVD with both. What about blu ray then? Specifically what about lossless HD for DTS and DD. Basically this thread is DTS vs DD and just want to know if you have any idea if there is a AQ difference between DTS and DD if using the same source for encoding so we know which one is more superior.

Thanks for that explanation, it's one of the better ones out there and I think I'm beginning to get it about Dial Norm.



So assuming the AVR is properly calibrated, when you set the master volume at 0dB the dialog would be around 78dB (105dB - 27dB) right?


In many blu rays I notice the AVR applying a Dial Norm of +4dB. I always wondered why the number is 4dB so I think the above explains it. As you said, default is -31dB and standard dialog is leveled at -27, so Dial Norm must be +4 in order to bring it back to standard. Is that correct?

---

Added on December 16, 2010, 8:51 pmI noticed Ip Man 2 has both True HD and DTS HD MA. But I haven't compared both yet. Maybe this weekend I'll do it.

This post has been edited by jchong: Dec 16 2010, 08:51 PM

Red Cliff has both 3 lossless formats

MP3 FTW!

apart from dialnorm.

another thing to consider for Dolby is Dynamic Range Control (DRC)

most players now have 3 options:

Auto: DRC setting follow bitstream metadata
ON: DRC is always at full or some setting specified by decoder
OFF: No DRC

im lazy to explain about DRC.. there a plenty of resources out there

Guys, may i ask simple question here?

I have myself HTIB which support DolbyDigital and DTS.
Recently i played "Dolby - The Sound Of High Definition Blu-Ray".
Dolby Digital format works fine on my HTIB, but when it came to True-HD testing, my speaker produce 2.1 sound only.
I was hoping it downmix to DolbyDigital instead of 2.1.

I play the movie from:
Xtreamer (HD Audio pass-through) > AV receiver (HTIB) (Dolby and DTS) > 5.1 speaker

So if i want to experience True-HD or DTS-HD MA, i need to upgrade my HTIB/av receiver?

Thanks in advance

what AVR are you using and does it support True-HD?

from what i know.. the True-HD portion (harry potter, nine inch nails, etc) only contains True-HD tracks.
otherwise if the amp does not support. it will juz come out as Dolby Digital 2.1 (is a seperate audio track)

unlike DD+ 7.1 when amp not supported, it will juz take the DD 5.1 portion and decode.
if DD+ is supported, then amp will provide downmix depend on number of speakers enabled on the amp.

LG something. It only stated DD and DTS, i take that as no for True-HD.
I guess my choice is to upgrade my AVR then.
Thanks for the explaination

What lee said is true. Dolby THD tracks are dedicated. If you want Dolby Digital, you have to switch to that track. DTS HDMA and standard DTS are bundled together but they are separate streams that the player would automatically choose if you don't have DTS HDMA decoders.

So since you're playing this using Xtreamer and not the promo BD from Dolby, how sure are you that your downloaded file has the Dolby TrueHD track? It is unlikely that the Dolby Digital decoder in your HTiB can handle the downmix from lossless 7.1/5.1 to 2.1 unless what you have has already been downmixed to Dolby Digital 2.1.


fuad

unless if BD player support Dolby True-HD decoding

then can juz set at BD player to PCM. And will pass over to AV receiver.

like that you still can enjoy Dolby True-HD 5.1