Thanks for your response.

In fact the west side ceiling is actually always hotter than the east side ceiling and yet there are nests on the west side.

On the east side, most of the ceiling is about the same temperature but the sections near the east wall remains empty but the sections near the well(centre ) is occupied by many birds..

I'll monitor the temperatures more closely to see if there is a difference at the nesting planks.

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Added on September 11, 2010, 11:25 pmUnfortunately you cannot mix tweeters of different resistance ie. ohms.

If you drive a normal piezo tweeter in parallel with a coil tweeter of 8 ohms, you will get no sound from the piezo tweeter as all the current will be used to drive the 8 ohm component.

If you try to drive many 8 ohm tweeters in parallel, you'll likely blow your amp.

If you try drive many 8 ohm tweeters in series, you will get no sound. 8 ohms speakers need high currents to function but produce good bass sound.

Not all coil tweeters are 4 or 8 ohms. Coils used in piezo tweeters are actually "crossovers" used to divert all the energy into the higher frequencies meant for the tweeter.

Look at the tweeter specs. carefully and it'll state the Ohms rating.

The beauty of high ohms piezo tweeters is that we can wire hundreds of tweeters together in parallel and get sound from them without blowing the amp. Why ?? the total resistance of components in parallel is found by adding the reciprocal of each component eg. 1/r1 + 1/r2 +1/r3 = 1/R where R is the total resistance of the components r1, r2, r3 in parallel.
so if r1=r2=r3=8 then 1/8 +1/8 +1/8 = 3/8 = 0.375 or approx. 1/3 so the total ohms will be approx. 3 ohms which will readily blow the amp up.

With a piezo which is about 4000 ohms 1/4000 + 1/4000 +1/4000 .......(for 100pcs) = 100/4000 = 1/40 so the total ohms for 100 pcs of tweeters of 4000 ohms impedance in parallel will be 40ohms. Most amps are designed to drive at a max current through 4 or 8 ohms so 40 ohms in this case will be the safe. Piezos need very little current to function.

There are many sorts of Motorola tweeters and some are actually coil driven, ie they rely on magnetism created by the coil when the amp current flows through it. Piezos are different in that the voltage across 2 crystal plates cause the plates to vibrate according to the voltage fluctuations. You will find no magnet in a piezo tweeter. A coil driven tweeter will not last long in a BH.

Hope that helps.





This post has been edited by tuckfook: Sep 11 2010, 11:25 PM

Thanks for your response.

From observation, the birds fly into the East wing but only to the sections nearest the well(centre) not the innermost section near the eastern wall. In fact most of the nests on the 3 rd floor are in the East wing near the well.

Planks are new, unlikely to have mould but I will check.

There is very little shit from flying birds in this area even though there are 2 tweeters playing external sound at the wall.

There are no obstructions in the flight path as there are no columns or partitions in the entire BH.

Long holidays give us so much time to play ! Also much time for the YBs to delay announcements arrgh the suspense.

There are 3 entrances, North, East and South. Many people have mistaken my doors as in/out holes so I've an improved picture uploaded.

All the planks are from the same vendor, same batch and had been installed 2 yrs ago. The birds have avoided this area since the first day.

Most popular in/out hole is the South hole as it overlooks a large unobstructed area. It has been noted that these birds like to fly over all obstructions and seldom fly in between trees, structures etc.

Judging from my case, birds prefer entrances that open over flat unobstructed areas of 50m or more. My north hole has the tree line about 30m away whereas the South hole is flat to 100m away. The East hole overlooks the flat roof and is the least popular though also used by the birds.

The North hole requires a clockwise turn, the South hole an anti clockwise turn and the East is a straight flight in.

Thank you for your response. I have always had suspicions it could be because of lighting, since as you pointed out that this area is relatively the darkest.

We have known for a very long time that new birds are afraid of the very dark areas and they eventually migrate to the darker areas after living in the BH for awhile. Which is why a new BH should be relatively bright to allow new birds to come in deep as soon as possible.

Several of my friends have found success in using low wattage light in very dark un populated areas.

I am not planning to use a light but would employ a more permanent and simpler solution as follows;
The East hole has enough sunlight in 7.30am to 10am to brighten the whole 3 rd floor that the west wing is almost as bright as outside but the East wing remains relatively very dark. The contrast is great especially for a bird flying at 30+mph and it may be 'blinded' by the darker area therefore avoiding it. Closing up the East hole partially and gradually may be the solution.

Before that, I plan to try out some aromas in part of that area to see if it will attract birds. In other parts I'll glue some nests in the corners to see if some lazy birds will use them.

Will report on the progress when I get everything together.

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Added on September 13, 2010, 1:11 pmMy neighbouring BH uses a flourescent light to keep owls away. This light is inside the roving area just above the in/out hole. Note that this light has been there since the first day and is always on

These birds do not like sudden changes to the conditions of their home, just as humans don't like to be disturbed.

Any new and sudden installation that will have an impact on the conditions of an existing BH will cause the birds some stress. Some are lucky some not.





This post has been edited by tuckfook: Sep 13 2010, 01:11 PM

Thank you for your response,

Got birds everywhere except top floor East wing eastern most end section. Did not bother to mark middle and bottom floors in my pic..

Thank you for your response.

All tweeters are regularly checked and replaced if not working. In fact that was the first thing checked. Not only checked if they are working only but also checked if the correct sound is being played out as sometimes tweeters are faulty and make a crackling sound instead of the normal sound.

Usual things like sound, mould & wetness on planks, smell, draft, heat, humidity, signs of bats & owls or wasps etc are checked regularly.

Yes you are right about the light balance.

Have tried putting styrofoams sheet under the vents but did not make any difference as i only have 2 vents there. I use electric ventilation fans instead of many small vents.

As soon as I get the aroma I'll try the experiment.

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Added on September 14, 2010, 2:55 pmYes you are right that I am not unduly worried at this small area's lack of birds which is why I'm going to use it for experimenting with aromas. It is also a long way before all the other places get filled up.

It is a good opportunity to try aromas etc.

Anyone wishing to let me experiment with their aromas are welcome to send me a sample. I will report all my finding factually in this forum. All aromas will be marked but anonymous except to me and the supplier. Only the successful aroma will be advertised if the supplier so wishes.




This post has been edited by tuckfook: Sep 14 2010, 02:55 PM

West Wing should be renamed WISE Wing

Assuming your BH is of a good design:

It is only logical to build close to a successful BH as you will benefit from the young birds that are produced by that house.

The calling of new birds to your area will be mutually beneficial as the new/visiting birds will be impressed by the sheer volume of bird sound giving the impression of a large healthy community.

There are hardly any consultants nowadays. Most are builders/contractor who build BHs according to their experience. In a stand alone, there should be no consultation fees. A contractor will make more money from being recommended to new customers. You can also sue the contractor and engineer if your building is not passed by council. Yes, with 1GP you'll need approved building plans.

There are many construction methods each with varying costs and benefits. Discus pros and con with the contractor. Each district will have different requirements. eg. swampy areas will have naturally high humidity or a hot and dry area will need added insulation and humidity retention etc. There is no single method for all areas.

Conversion of urban commercial houses will have it own headaches. Licensing, inspection, submission of plans and worst of all the complaints from neighbours. Also BH must be 50?metres from any residence. What happens if a neighbour converts to a budget hotel ? Why face the uncertainty !

DIY is a great idea if you know what you are doing ! I know something about construction, engineering, draughting, local bye laws, contracting and building BHs but I still employed a contractor !

As WW expressed, supervision of especially foreign labour is a pain in the neck and probably worse. Pilfering, absenteeism, fights, holidays...need I say more?

My workers got raided by immigration and the contractor had to pay off the right people otherwise the fine would be in access of the profit ! The local malays "ajar" my indon worker and the contractor had to send a bloody, half dead person to hospital at 3am. Another had a falling wooden beam split his head open and had to be sent to hospital in a terrible mess. All this the contractor dealt with and work on site was never delayed !

Some of us get into the BH business because we do not have to deal with personnel, epf, socso, management etc. etc.

So be wise, learn from Wise Wing

Don't pay up front. Only pay the part that is completed. Always have alternatives available and make it known to the contractor that you can always give to job to someone else.

Better still, get hold of their balls and squeeze.....make them pay for goods supplied and you delay payment until they beg you.

1 Buy yourself a multimeter. There is a model made in China, brand is Uni T which is cheap and good.

2 measure the resistance of the tweeters you are using.
If you bought the China tweeters, they will not be 4 or 8 ohms. If you are using tweeters that are measured at 4 or 8 ohms then something is strange.
Take the tweeter apart and see if there is a magnet inside. if there is then do not use these. They may have cost a lot but they are not suitable for BHs as they will not last and also require very powerful amps to run.
Piezo tweeters only consist of a flat round plate like a 10 or 20 sen coin with wires joining on each side. Some may have a coil but that is just unecessary.
An external capacitor(condensor) is also not really necessary.

3 if your outside tweeters(piezo) fail then it is probably because of rain or the plastic body not being able to take the hot sun. Make drain holes for rain. Buy tweeters with thicker plastic bodies.

One 4 channel stereo car amp rated at 50 watts can power 150 piezo tweeters. The Swiftlet sound/Nikodo? 3 channel stereo amp can easily power 160 tweeters per channel. Remember this applies to piezo tweeters only.

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Added on September 16, 2010, 2:11 pmOwners need to supervise Contractors who then supervise sub contractors who then supervise the contract workers.

No two ways about, when the cat is away the mice will play !

I was very lucky when I built mine after hearing all the horror stories.



This post has been edited by tuckfook: Sep 16 2010, 02:11 PM

What ? you trust chinese brands ? You can put your own brand on tweeters from most chinese manufacturers !

Choose one with thicker plastic body and the largest advertised wattage ! Large wattage means bigger piezo crystal. Thicker body means the body lasts longer. Frankly, regardless of brand name, they are all almost the same. As time passes, the quality in general is getting better.

In my next BH I'm going to install all the tweeters in the corners, as in a corner piece, and cover it with fine stainless steel mesh. So when the birds build their nest in the corner, which they will almost always do, they will build on top of the mesh and therefore no 90deg. nest.

Everything seems to round in a full circle.

Long ago, well maybe not too long but about 10yrs ago, many went the hi fi direction and it then progressed to the cheap piezo tweeters. Now are we going back towards hi fi ?

Hi fi will require better amps and all the better amps and magnetic hi fi tweeters do not last. The anticipated better population of birds did not happen. Consultants sold sound systems worth tens of thousands of ringgit.

Many people are successful with cheap piezo tweeters and those who started with hi fi equipment changed to cheap piezos, so what does that show ?

If the BH is built wrong, no matter what audiophile equipment you put in will not help. If it's built perfect, if ever possible, it will probably require no sound at all.

In the olden days, badly distorted tape recordings with background sounds of car horns, people talking, etc. etc. worked well enough to turn some people into millionaires. Nowadays, the recordings are far superior and amps are far superior with tweeters that are better than those of yesteryear, has it made much of a difference ? Did the birds leave the old houses to new houses with Hi Fi sound? Do those with hi fi sound attract more birds?

All animals have a range of hearing, what is not within the range is simply not heard ! What we hear as being better might not even be heard by the birds and what we perceive as bad (or don't hear at all) may be whats attracting the birds.

Which brings us to the con artists who tried to sell Ultrasonic equipment and claimed that it would be better for our environment as well as calling the birds. They tried to influence the local councils to enforce the usage of such gear thereby banning the use of tweeters and conventional sound ! Some people were easily fooled to part with their money !

As far as I have experienced, the birds do not seem too fussy about the sound quality but more on what the sound is about. Only if we could understand them.

I thought the same when I first started. I needed the headstart on others and hopefully through better sound equipment. Wasted a lot of money. I played the same sound through an array of tweeters from China to Mexico and audiophile rated gear, simultaneously ! The swiftlets hung on to almost every one, no particular preference.

I later used better audiophile amps and cheap amps side by side, same result, no preference.

What is most important is the sound content. Of course do not use equipment that audibly distorts the sound, which is easy to determine unless you are deaf. On thing for sure the swiftlets do not like the crackling sound coming from faulty tweeters.

Hope everyone has fun with the experiments,

What area are you looking at ? If around Kedah and Penang, I'll look around for you.

I may be wrong but I believe it has something to do with the building act/bye laws whereby buildings up to 3 flrs have less stringent requirements and more floors require strict engineering supervision etc.

Perhaps an architect or civil engineer cam clarify.

Electrification, as long as it not directly connected to the TNB grid, there is no law against electrification.

I use a neon transformer, 15,000volts across 2 wires and 7500 volts to earth. It zaps owls, cicaks and other unwanted guests.

Humans might find the voltage somewhat uncomfortable but it does not kill directly, the fall might !

Smarter unwanted human guests have learnt to short circuit the system, hence the 2 live wires to earth system. In any case as soon as the system is shorted the alarm will be triggered.




Cergau, you should be in Politics or at the very least a Senior officer in the Civil Service.

Open ended, ambiguous, undefined, non specific with lots of room for selective interpretation is oil for the govt. machinery. Grease it and it moves !

Such regulations works both ways. So it can be mutually beneficial.

But seriously, it is all mainly due to the lack of expertise of the officers who recommended and penned the regulations plus the influence of business contacts, YBs, Tan Sris, Dato dato dll. who try to direct things for their personal agendas.

Are we expected to adhere to all or be seen to be seemingly adhering !

Without doubt, the local councils will try to introduce and maintain their own regulations for the industry. Because the local councils are political, they are open to all sorts of unprofessional influence, then making the regulations biased is obviously up to everyone. Is this not a form of democracy ?

So back to "Kepakaran dan Tanggungjawab Pengusaha" imagine I employ an 'idiot' to harvest nests, in my honest opinion this 'idiot' is fully capable and considerably experienced to the the job, so I fulfill the requirements admirably. OTOH I, might be considered and idiot in comparison to Steven Hawking.

So, you ask why make such regulations, well simply because they have to be seen to be seemingly intelligently doing their jobs or else our tax money is not seemingly well spent and if my uncle makes magnetic identification tags but business is slow, I might want to get the law to force everyone to ensure that their birds wear id tags. As long as you have proof of purchase of the tags, it will not matter if the birds are wearing them, we'll assume that they are!

Waste not your time seeking UTOPIA for it does not exist physically.

Yes you are correct.

ventricular fibrilation treshold is not the same for everyone, which is why the TASER (as used by Police) has also killed when it supposedly safe.

If voltage and current levels are kept to a "safe" level then we might as well not use it as it will be ineffective.

In Malaysia, because of the high humidity and the presence of perspiration on the skin, much of the electricity will flow on the outside of the body and not through the chest.

To make the neon transformer safer, sometimes a small wattage light bulb is placed in series with the output so as to limit the current but by then it may not be good enough to fry a cicak.

You can also get a step up transformer as used for fly zappers that are about 4000 volts but again the current could be high enough to kill the right person.

Commercially available electric fences are so weak that they are ineffective, giving as much of a zap as a car ignition spark.

Do not use direct connections to the mains as even though the voltage is low, the current, up to 60amps. normally, will certainly fry somebody.

Whichever method, it is only a deterrent and can be quite easily defeated by the knowledgeable.

Flyback trans normally have a higher voltage, typically 20Kv to 50Kv and it will definitely arc especially in wet conditions.

These flyback trans are made for the inside of TVs, crt etc and enjoy a protected environment. The neon trans is usually potted in epoxy or tar and impervious to bad weather. So a flyback trans will not last and be subject to arcing all over the place. Once it shorts it is useless.

Cheap if not free for high voltage projects but not durable and reliable for electric fences.

Pro electric fences are Direct current driven and use the earth/ground as a conductor. Normally about 7500 to 15000 volts DC. The electricity is pulsed, at about 1 pulse a second. These are safety features so that an animal can theoretically escape when trapped by the conductor. By using the ground as a conductor, it ensures that the current flowing is very small as well as saving the necessity of another conductor. US, UK, Aust. legal requirements.

A neon transformer is usually Alternating current and the transformer is centre tapped, meaning when the transformer is operating, one conductor is +7500 v and the other is - 7500v so the voltage between both conductors is 15000v. The centre tap remains at 0v and is grounded so the voltage between any conductor and the ground is 7500v.
This is practically on all the time so any animal caught in any of the conductors will get electricity all the time.

When using a neon trans. shorting one wire to ground will leave the other wire still live, as can happen when grass, wet wood etc touches one wire.

All electric fences can be shorted. Shorting will not destroy an electric fence charger or neon trans as very little current flows so produces minimal heat, not enough for a transformer meltdown.

Multiple conductor fences will not short conductor to conductor but will short to ground, whereas the neon trans. will short conductor to conductor.

You'll need a very clean non conducting rope to not get a shock as water/sweat etc can turn the rope conducting. There are easier ways to enter a BH.

Many BHs in Penang use a 'Bed of nails' under the in/out hole so any unsuspecting wannabe burglar jumping in will get a painful reception. Some are using fish hooks instead of nails for nastier effect. Note that glass will show clearly when a light is shone over it whereas rusty nails and hooks may not.

Yes, all mine work of normal car lead acid batteries driving a cheap ups, so far no problems. The deep cycle batteries should give me better battery time as the voltage in normal starter batteries drop off very suddenly( ups will switch off) and quickly giving me about half the rated capacity(on higher amps draw) but then again we do not expect the main power to be off for so very long!

One 40Ah starter lead acid gives me about 2.5 hrs running a single 3 channel amp. with about 300 tweeters on internal sound.

One 70Ah starter lead acid gives me 1 hr. running a 16 channel DVR with external HDD. No monitor running.

One 7Ah deep cycle gives me more than 6 hrs running 2 cameras or 45mins. with the night vision leds(40) on.

One 70 Ah starter lead acid gives me more than 10 hrs with a neon trans.

one 7Ah deep cycle gives me more 3 days with an alarm system

So anyone planning to raid my place, I've got you on candid camera being lit up with 15000volts and if that's not enough, it'll be on youtube and facebook.

BTW you can also buy battery operated fence chargers, just leave them on charger all the time.