From the way u write, let me make a wild guess, u work for a bank????

My sister has recently applied a loan with a Bank with Tiger Logo the loan was approved, but the officer refused to give the letter of offer, until my sis signed the L/O, my sis consulted me, i explained to her about her rights as an bank consumer, we have the right to choose the best bank package, being given 14 days time allowance, we can compare the offers and package and choose the best offer, i asked her to sign first, and then get the L/O to other banks incase we need to do so. At the same time we ask the loan documentation lawyer to hold the documentation (once u sign the L/O, bank officer will advice the lawyer to start the loan documentation) by telling the lawyer that we are waiting the offer from other banks.

I know it is too crutial to do this, but the thing is the Tigers Bank's officer did the wrong things on the 1st place by forcing us to sign on the 1st place. As a consumer, she shd pass us the L/O and we are given 14 days to considered the offer. Toger bank's offer is to request FD, a guarantor to guarantee the loan, and etc....my sis is lucky that other bank offer came in yesterday, and with 95% MOA, no guarantor/ FD required, plus good rate 3.75% fixed for 1st 3 years.....

The moral of the story is that the unreasonable mortgage bankers can only threaten the innocent customers that do not know their rights.

That's different from what scorgio's trying to point out. Your sister doesn't need to sign the LO from Maybank to get the rates. It's just that she won't be allowed to take the LO to another bank to get a counter offer BUT she could still easily compare the rates provided by the other bank. If the other banks offer isn't favourable, she could just mention that she's been to Maybank and they are offering her xxxx and if the other bank can do better, then offer. If not then she'll go back to Maybank and sign.

It's kinda like comparing the price of goods at hypermarkets. As a consumer, you actually have to do some legwork to list down the prices from Giant and then compare with Tesco to see who is actually giving you the better offer for the said product. Only thing is that you can't get the hypermarkets to counter offer you with a lower price BUT you have the choice to shop from whichever hypermarket that gives you the better price, same goes with the bank that gives you the better offer.

Scorgio point of view is LO is a legal documents so if handeled over to customer will cause the leakage of information which is not true!! I do not understand why u mentioned that why my sis is not allowed to show letter offer to other bank, when on the 1st place, the Tiger bank asked if my sister got any offer from other bank, and if any, show her b4 she put up the loan and she will try to match with better offer?

You compare bank's loan and groceries at hypermarkets, it is irrelevant. You can do some legworks to compare price of the products b4 you buy in hypermarket, Hypermarket offers the same price to all customers that go to them regarless of your background.

For bank loan application u will not know the offer/rates/MOA , until u submit your documents for application. The approval T&C is depends on individual strength, repayment capacity, conduct of account, and other qualitative factors. They dont give the same offer to all walk in customers like hypermarket does.

OL is a PnC doc between the offered bank and the applicant... if the competing bank that the customer is heading for better rate, somehow cooperate i think there's possibility being sued...

but anyway, bank wont do so, as millions of cust is doin all these... getting the best of the best interest rate, but ignore the terms n conditions eg like tied up period n penalty of early settlement... haha

somehow actually think in an overall way, practice by squeezing the bank to offer customer the lowest int rate would only affect our FD rate... by end of the day BLR got to be increased to balance the bank deposit and disbursement.... all borrowers affected... ...

This post has been edited by jefferey: Apr 25 2010, 05:07 PM

xtr4,

i am not allowed to take the goods. but the flyer with the price ad wont be a problem. i am not taking the loan along just the info on the pricing.

U may had worked in the IT Dept of a Bank, but I guess you don't have much of a clue regarding the admin part.

It's bcos the bank can't do much, if a potential borrower take the OL to another bank & didn't return. So? Scramble the legal dept, lawyers to take action? That's a f**king waste of the organization's resources (human, time, effort). And what remedy should the Bank seek? Lost of papers? Thus, in that case, why let it happen in the 1st place?

No, I don't work in the banking industry.

Let's not sway away from the initial argument. I stated it at the beginning, customer has the right to understand the clause/item/condition stated inside the OL. And I also named 4 reasons, why the bank wouldn't allow u to take the OL home. And it's the same reason why u can't take ur S&P & loan agreement home. Your sister being 'threaten' (too heavy, don't u think?), is an individual case & perhaps u'd want to file a complaint to BNM like a few forummers suggested.

Try not to FOCUS solely on the interest rate issue. Which if one is observant enough, it's all on the web. I'd assume most would have make a comparison b4 walking into a bank.

Excuse me! Watch your words. I never said that sentence. The word I used was 'might', never 'will'.

These are the times when the competition between banks are getting out of hands.

The bank officer has the right to keep the LO, its the banks property until it is signed. However, you can still request for the LO, naturally because you do need to study the terms as well.

To assure your banker that you have no intention to present the LO for a better offer, ask the banker to blank-out the particulars, such as the Interest Rate, the loan applicant's details, the collaterals etc. Since you just need go through the TnC on their Offer, most banker are able to provide you such copy.

If the Mortgage Officer still insist that you have to sign n read it on the spot, bring along a friend or relative who has experience. They might be able to help to consult on the matters.

Hope the above helps.

drop me a call if you need help.



This post has been edited by merce: Apr 25 2010, 06:52 PM

Or put it another way around.

Which member here DID BRING THE OFFER LETTER HOME?

Anyone had such experience?

Please stand up.

Bank will not go bankrup if u squeze them the rate. Bank is the special entity that allowed by Bank Negara to give loan and charge from 4% (mortgage) to 15% (for credit card), where their cost of fund is from 0% (company current account pay no interest - so zero cost fund) to 2.5% (1 year FD).

BLR is controlled by Bank Negara, and not by the commercial bank. Bank Negara need to look at the economy outlook, trade balances, GDP/GNP, and many economic data/macroeconomy issues to decide on the interest rate, they will not simply change the BLR becoz of small number of customer squeezing commercial bank to give better rates.

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Added on April 25, 2010, 7:48 pmspeaking from experience, i never have problems to convince any bankers to give me the actual copy of LO. And the banker always bring the LO and pass to me direct. Or if they can't make it they always email me the soft copy with the authorised signature on the LO.

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Added on April 25, 2010, 7:59 pmu seems did not pay attention on what i have written b4. We did not fight for rates. What the Tiger bank need in their LO are:-
a) a FD Placement of 24 months instalment equavalent in advance, Pledge of FD till settling the loan
b) a qualified Guarantor
c) MRTA compulsory

with this strict T&C in LO, the officer want her to sign on the spot or else LO will not be given, and i find this unfair. BLR-1.8% or BLR-1.9% makes no difference to us, it is the T&C that matters. The Bank's webiste say nothing about this T&C, bank's website only have basic information.

Sorry, i shd not use the word WILL, assuming the word of MIGHT, what do u think handling of LO to customer MIGHT cause the leakage of bank's information??? and what are the serious consequences of doing that? Appreciate if you can enlighten us.

This post has been edited by cheahcw2003: Apr 25 2010, 08:02 PM

So how many loan are you servicing currently?
It seems you know the banker pretty well, thus you're given preferential treatment.

Sorry sorry. The phrase "Try not to FOCUS solely on the interest rate issue" wasn't intended for you.
I was merely referring to that the argument had sway onto OL=interest rate leveraging tool. When the subject is why one can't take the OL home.

I listed out 4 reasons. Possibility of info leakage is part of it.
Put urself in the banker's shoes. U wouldn't want other customer to know that u or ur boss had given gentleman A a 0.1% p.a. deduction on his interest rate.
U wouldn't want the bank's other panel of lawyer to know that u had given more cases to Firm A.
U also wouldn't want ur competitor to know ur collateral requirement.
Mortgage bankers are incentive based. One is competing amongst colleagues & counterparts within the industry.
However, outsiders may find all these irrelevant & merely an excuse.

This post has been edited by scorgio: Apr 25 2010, 10:05 PM

me but its not the paper copy lar, scan/soft copy in PDF format, 100% the original copy tru Email



This post has been edited by skng03: Apr 26 2010, 02:12 PM

[scorgio]So how many loan are you servicing currently?
It seems you know the banker pretty well, thus you're given preferential treatment.

Now the mortgage loan market are very competitive, they will come personally to u to collect documents, once the loan approved they will come to you with LO. I just make sure they email to me to go thru 1st, if i accept the T&C, only ask them to handover the original doc to me. No need to waste their time if u know their offer is not good enuf and u cant accept. I try to build a good repo with bankers, so far no complain for my few loans. I am a highly geared borrower !!

Sorry sorry. The phrase "Try not to FOCUS solely on the interest rate issue" wasn't intended for you.
I was merely referring to that the argument had sway onto OL=interest rate leveraging tool.

Yes the rate is not my only consideration, if the rate is in the range of 0.1 to 0.2%. Most banks have stadard rate now, so u cannot negotiate much. But other condition that more important, if u can get it thru, it will save u a lot of $$, i managed to convince a banker to give me "no exit fee for early settlement" package, so it save me a lot. for every RM100K loan will save me RM2K exit penalty.

When the subject is why one can't take the OL home.
I listed out 4 reasons. Possibility of info leakage is part of it.
Put urself in the banker's shoes. U wouldn't want other customer to know that u or ur boss had given gentleman A a 0.1% p.a. deduction on his interest rate. U wouldn't want the bank's other panel of lawyer to know that u had given more cases to Firm A.
U also wouldn't want ur competitor to know ur collateral requirement.
Mortgage bankers are incentive based. One is competing amongst colleagues & counterparts within the industry.
However, outsiders may find all these irrelevant & merely an excuse.

Your explaination make sense, but then i never come accross any banker refuse to give me L/O. Just feel that the Tiger bank officer reaction is not making sense

This post has been edited by cheahcw2003: Apr 25 2010, 11:20 PM

ya u got it right, did not mean that the bank will go bankrupt, i was saying the bank is not making enough money to sustain their cost of operation... i think some bank started to offer 2.75% fd di bro...

BLR is controlled by bank negara, but the issue of disbursement>deposits in the commercial banks these days doesn't contribute to the possibility of increasing of BLR soon???

ok as for taking the LO home, i think the bank should come out a standard n general format... coz by letting the applicant to bring home is to study and understand...

quoted from merce:

The bank officer has the right to keep the LO, its the banks property until it is signed. However, you can still request for the LO, naturally because you do need to study the terms as well.

To assure your banker that you have no intention to present the LO for a better offer, ask the banker to blank-out the particulars, such as the Interest Rate, the loan applicant's details, the collaterals etc. Since you just need go through the TnC on their Offer, most banker are able to provide you such copy.

i think most of the applicant's intention to bring home is to study and understand?? or wanna go to competing banks for better rate?? if ur intention is the 1st one i think no prob wat to ask for a general one by not providing the details like: LOAN AMT, RATE, TENURE...

why r u so worry about the bank not making enough money???? Bank still make money anyway, u dont have to worry about their overhead/
disbursement cost. Bank make losses because of NPL, or mis-managment, not because of small buyer negotiate mortgage loan interest rate with them. 2.5% or 2.75% increase in FD makes no different, as BLR also increase proportionately from 6.55% to 6.8% now. SO are you trying to say we shd not negotiate and just accept whatever offer the bank give so that they will not adjust the BLR rate??? silly isnt it?

i dont think there is any problem if we take home the LO, when we submit the loan application, we also supply our P&C documents to the bank, like our pay slip and etc, the mortgage officers also take back the documents that they needed from us. They even conduct a CCRIS check on all our loan exposure which is also P&C, so what is the matter if we take home the LO that for the loan that we applied??? why shd they black out all the important info? might well dont give the LO???? Intention of getting the LO could have many reasons, but i will not feel guity to show to other bankers for comparison, this is our rights to compare pricing. It is a free competition market....

quoted from merce:The bank officer has the right to keep the LO, its the banks property until it is signed
i disagree with Merce, a signature on the LO will transfer the ownership of the LO or so called "bank's property" to "borrower's property"??? can any lawyer verify this?

This post has been edited by lonelyplanet92: Apr 26 2010, 01:15 AM

i think u got me wrong here...

a signature on the LO does not transfer the ownership of the LO, but marks the agreement between the lender and the borrowers. And when there is an agreement, each side are required to be furnished with the same set of medium with the agreed terms (in this scenario, the LO and the loan agreement).

the Letter Offer, as explained by itself, is a proposal offered by the lender to the borrower. To make it clearer, lets see it this way;

A set of business proposal from A to B. A prepares the proposal, which consist of the TnC and how A is going to execute, conduct, and monitor the business. B is the customer who are going to study about the business proposal and terms and decide if he agrees to A's term.

Who owns the proposal? A or B?

When B agrees, and sign the proposal. Who will own the proposal now? A or B, or both?

This is the best example i can provide for now. (its 2.48 in the morning ) but if there's any1 here who can enlighten us on the subject, by all means please do so. your consult are most welcomed in here.

This post has been edited by merce: Apr 26 2010, 02:56 AM

5.55 to 5.8 a small correction... how sure r u every bank is making money?? kekeke

kekeke u've gone a lil off here, didnt ask n make any request to accept watever offer, thats y u can apply from many bank n compare...

ya, but can any bank submit ur docs to another party or another bank?? so it's between bank A and the applicant, bank B and the applicant.. bank A don share docs with bank B my fren... rite??

feeling guilty not depends on own personality la, juz imagine if ur letter to someone u propose for something, then he/she pass the letter to ur competitor asking can do better than u ar... then he/she comes back to u with reply and asking u can do better ar??? never ending story goes on loo....

hahaha, not to say transfer ownership, its a property between bank A and u... actually until the letter has been signed also not ethical to bring to other bank and ask for better rate lo... ethically think the letter should maintain in between u n the particular bank or those other bank around looo...

"It's bcos the bank can't do much, if a potential borrower take the OL to another bank & didn't return. So? Scramble the legal dept, lawyers to take action? That's a f**king waste of the organization's resources (human, time, effort). And what remedy should the Bank seek? Lost of papers?"

that is because you said its a P&C things and the bank shouldn't simply let customer take it home, if it is as important as you said, why not?
if it is not so important why bother whether customer wan to take home or not. and there is no waste of resources in here, no matter you sign up with the bank or not, the hardcopy already printed and in there.

you dun tell me they let you read the softcopy on their screen, once you confirm wanna sign then they only print out.


you said they have Recovery Dept, Security & Insurance to prevent getting rob or stuff like that, the reason they have admin kind of departments is because its necessary for customer to take the LO home if they wish, and that is why those departments are there. if it is too much work or waste of resource, then they might just close shop, giving LO / wasting LO is inevitable. its like you gonna run a business, but you never give black and white quotation to customer. how funny...

no offense to cheahcw2003, in fact, the bank with yellow tiger logo deserve that cuz they choose the hardway themselves.. so now do you think everyone has to do like what he did to get the LO home? wouldn't it be easier / more efficient / less trouble than just giving customer the offer letter?

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Added on April 26, 2010, 12:13 pmand i will say it for one final time, there is not much of reason they keep it as world class top secret, simply because it is not as other banks already has that info on hands.

taking a quotation from company A to company B for a better offer is very common, it happens every second in the business world.

This post has been edited by lamode: Apr 27 2010, 10:51 AM

JEFFREY

5.55 to 5.8 a small correction... how sure r u every bank is making money?? kekeke
Check the bank's financial report, most banks are public listed company, and the financial report are make know to the public. Dont u know that?

kekeke u've gone a lil off here, didnt ask n make any request to accept watever offer, thats y u can apply from many bank n compare...
ya, but can any bank submit ur docs to another party or another bank?? so it's between bank A and the applicant, bank B and the applicant.. bank A don share docs with bank B my fren... rite??
Yes, now many mortgage officers are inter-linked, they have their own network, if your loan get rejected from Bank A, they may ask u to try Bank B, by passing the info to Bank B, but often they will seek the applicant's approval. There are some Mortgage agency around that work for many banks for commission basis, once u submit them the documents, they will submit to few banks at the same time. I think u must be inexperienced to know this.

feeling guilty not depends on own personality la, juz imagine if ur letter to someone u propose for something, then he/she pass the letter to ur competitor asking can do better than u ar... then he/she comes back to u with reply and asking u can do better ar??? never ending story goes on loo....
If i am the bank A that get declined by the borrower because of my package not compatable with other bank, then i need to accept the reality and not to blame others. We are in a free competition market, not communist. As a borrower, u may set the target you want, say loan tenor, interest rate, other t&c. So once it is set, then i will definately accept. Normally for newly purchase property, u r given 21 days period to sign S&P as imposed by the developer, u do not have much time to shop around, so decision must be quit. Again, you seems not experienced on buying houses, and trying to mislead others.

hahaha, not to say transfer ownership, its a property between bank A and u... actually until the letter has been signed also not ethical to bring to other bank and ask for better rate lo... ethically think the letter should maintain in between u n the particular bank or those other bank around looo...
As i mentioned, it is a free competition world, so pls wake up.

This post has been edited by lonelyplanet92: Apr 26 2010, 12:24 PM

when bank give u the LO, it is just an offer, in the LO it listed the terms and condition that u need to comply with IF YOU DECIDED to take the loan, it listed the tenor, interest rate, MOF, and other terms and condition. When u agreed and accepted, the next agrement will be the formal loan documents/legal charge that to be prepared by qualified lawyer, and both party u and the bank need to enter into that agreement by signing the agreement in front of commission of oath, and also stamped in the land office.

so if u give LO to other bank to review i dont think there is any problem??? it is your right to be given 14 days by the bank to consider the offer. It is like u renovate your house, the contactor A may give u his quotation (offer letter) about the flooring/ kitchen cabinet, and it is alright for you to get the quotation and compare with contractor B or C. I dont see anything wrong. You mean it is not alright to show contactor A's offer to B & C. Come on, be more realistic. So quotation is quotation, legal loan agreement is different issues.

Currently i am applying the loan from HL. they allows me to sign the OL at my place in SG. the developer agent also say that their lawyer will send the S&P agreement to my place in SG.

so i think different bank have diffrent policy and procedure.