there are crappy tanks around u know :E

usually, it also scales with gear - so if you have a tank with lower gear, you may of course pull agro eventually

they have to be either:

1) horribly terribad
2) wearing terribad gear (which comes back to 1)
3) all of above.

i mean, theres tricks of trade, misdirection, almost every class can have threat reduction skills and/or talent, or even a complete threat wipe. blizz already "removed" the technicality of threat being an "issue" in fights (lol vael) and the result is ez mode threat. so yeah, it comes back to my 3 points:

if you're playing with such terribad people, you're probably very masochistic to stick with him.

and pertaining this thread:
fury warriors themselves have a talent to reduce threat in zerk stance :/

clearly u dun raid much to know about threat currently...

doesnt take a raider to realize threat (or the game for that matter) is ez mode.
dont kid yeself in thinking the game is hard.

hell, i know for a fact fury warriors arent usually (of course, there are good warriors who tops it now and then) the ones topping meters and if they arent on the top, they wont have to care about threat as the ones on top are going to die first if threat's ever an issue (yes i do know that there are classes who can wipe threat while warriors cant)

cause in raid DPS = aggro rite?
this is already wrong in the first place...
guess wut? the fury warr in my raid dun top dps but do top aggro...
and occasionally requires salvation from paladins...

cause in raid there's only 1 target to dps rite?
bosses do have threat reset as well...
and ads do spawn which the tank would have a low initial aggro...

cause in raid there is no need to burst down a target thus the high aggro over a short period of time?
not to mention all those gimmick like empowerment etc from the raid that makes threat an issue...

APPARENTLY, it takes a raider to realize this...
its not hard to play, but its not easy to be good =p

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 15 2009, 08:09 PM

1) in a 10man, with at least 1 rogue and/or hunter for MD/tricks, having the tank's threat being equalvalent, if not more than 1 person's worth of threat, if your fury warrior is still out aggroing, only 2 possibilities:
- terribad tank
- terribad fury warrior and most likely doing stuff like blowing cooldowns right at the start with the tank barely hitting the mob for aggro buildup

2) because tank only can hold aggro on 1 target right? lol
boss can reset, classes like rogues/hunters can still retricks/reMD
again, all 4 tanks are capable of holding aoe aggro, and worse come to worse on aoe, fury warrior can shield up and/or get PS (yes, threat) salv etc. arguebly, ps is better off on the tank as opposed to some random fury dps who couldnt wait a bit for aggro

3) and whos to say you cant burst down targets still? tricks/MD is more than enough for aggro issues in addition to ALL tank classes in WOTLK having huge buffs to threat generation/scaling. and again, worse come to worse theres always salv, ps, etc.

seriously though, if other raiders are not having such issues, i dont see why you would. unless your terribad.

so safe to assume : -
1. MD and TotT is always off the CD rite and nothing happen in between
2. the rogues/ hunter are always around to do that instead of something else
3. surely dps-ers are in control of crit strings, trinket procs, bloodlust or gimmicks (eg empowerment etc) that just spike up the aggro rite
4. only 1 dps is having high threat when the others are low
5. taunt cannot be resist, FD cant be resisted etc
6. tanks have the luxury to gain aggro while the other dps watch when a big big burst is needed
7. every1 have godly response to actually 'sheild up' when aggro-ing that kill u in 1 hit
8. every1 is free enuff to throw aggro reduction around the raid
9. tanks only focus on aggro at the start and dun have to blow CD (this alone tell me how much u dunno about raids)
10. all the ads are crowded around the tank for him to aoe freely getting aggro

oh ya, other raiders do have threat issue if u are wondering...
and if u nvr notice, threat was nerfed and dpsers are scaling more...

its ironic for a none raider to actually say others as terribad or proud of his so call 'high' dps (well it is pretty high for pug)

1) 30seconds is a fairly short cooldown
2) GCD and 15 energy/9% base mana is too much to ask right? lol (btw, i only do it at the start of the fight, as i havent encounter any terribad tanks, yet.
3) 100% crit? 100% trinkeet proc? bloodlust before the tank even hit the mob/boss? ok.
4) 1? i think warlocks would like to argue with you. granted, they got their threat issues buffed on 3.3
5) umm, lol? if you're talking bout taunt/FD in middle of fights, given hunters have MD in the first place, what kinda players are you bringing? lol
6) no one is saying anything about let tank build aggro before dps. as far as im concerned, MD/TOTT is more than enough.
7) wow has a built in aggro meter (that % number, hello?) if you dont want to bother looking at it, you are to blame for 1) getting aggro in the first place 2) dying from aggro
8) its not even needed in the first place, and when it do, all it takes is a macro/focus macro to perform, especially when you know whos the usual aggro pulling idiot
9) if your tanks have to blow CDs at the start of the fight to not die, that tank is probably not fit for the encounter.
10) if the encounter is meant for massive ad spawning, there is usually an OT. so your point is moot. and if you're so awsm at raiding, i dont think you need me to tell you to get to the tank when theres a huge ezmode warning on top of your screen saying 'AGGRO FROM x' aye?

yes there are issues, however, those issues are definitely not game breaking, and it certainly would not trouble a seasoned raider all that much. especially if said raider has been through the harshness of vanilla WoW when aggro management is actually a bigger issue (SB CRIT MOLTEN GIANTS WHOOO, VAEL raid wipes WHOOOO, you get the idea)

i find it ironic when someone is having such trivial problems when hes playing a paladin, and more often than not a healer at that, while others, not so much. holy light pulling aggro QQ? time to replace the tank.

1. short but ads do spawn shorter, aggro wipe do happen
2. apparently hunter and rogues do have other roles besides MD/ToTT
3. actually ppl do bloodlust before the tank even hit the mob (LJ's portal -> mistress) which as i said a non-raider (you) would not know
4. yes lock was topping my salv list (especially twins empowerment charge up before engage), and mages as well
5. cause hunters dun have to play around with traps for cc, mark the targets to focus on, kite several ads etc rite?
6. as far as the good dpsers i raid with are of concern, its not enough at times
7. so every1 should look at their aggro meter and not have other raid awareness? not all encounters are simple as the ones u are in
8. unfortunately, there's no such idiot around and every1 have enuff firepower to pull aggro over crit strings at times
9. tell that to all the tanks then when we are talking about heroic mode encounters (not ur ez mode pug-able raids)
10. so the OT gotta pull ads that are all around the big area when they are melee classes

if u dunno, i use righteous fury when i heal and i don't pull aggro lol (if u dun understand the logic behind RF healing i dun mind explaining)...
and i think my tanks are good enough considering the amount of contents we have cleared and to actually allow me to use RF healing =p

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 16 2009, 01:39 PM

1) you wanna start assigning md/tott rotations now? (or easier, replace the tank)
2) yeah, dps is hard. i guess someone is being considerate
3) 1 fight (or a very few, less than a handful) means the same for the entire WOTLK raiding content ya?
4) soulshatter and mirror image. grats on raiding.
5) throwing traps is hard. raid icon marking (doable by raid assistance) is hard. kiting adds is even harder. (go speak to classic rhokdelar hunters)
6) dps is never enough, irrelevant
7) umm, its blizzard built in and its there on the target icon? you dont even have to download aggro meters (is omen even still maintained? rofl) nor do you have to pay much attention to it unless you're blind/deaf/colorblind etc and the aggro warnings are unreachable to you. to that point though, you're probably better off not raiding.
8) and everyone who has a brain would realize to town down a lil when they are reaching aggro threshold and/or performing excessive crit strings (not really, unless the tank is brain dead)
9) so, the said heroic encounters will be done under 1 minute or 2? what if the tank needs the CDs, and they are all blown off at the start of the fight? just wipe and QQ too bad RNG gg'ed tank? doesnt matter if your running heroic or non heroic raids, raid bosses (exception to overgeared raiders of said content ^^) do not die under a minute, and the need to blow all your CDs at the start, is a good indication that said tank (or healer) prolly needs more gear
10) every tank has a range puller, and people who got aggro, can goto OT. get real.

if urself, and your tank is supposedly so good at aggro, why are you b****ing here?

I know most of the time I die because of proximity agro - especially when a boss reappears . That is because of being too eager too soon

duck and cover :3
solves all disasters

1. why would we replace a good tank which i think is among the best tanks out there?
2. doing 10k dps while changing targets and avoiding hazards is hard after all
3. i only gave u 1 fight as an example, i could give u more and more if u wanted... clearly u are out of arguments
4. just that soul shatter have a pretty long CD and locks do have threat issues pre 3.3a
5. i'm talking about hunter's mark (MM hunters) to focus on important targets (snobolds, bones etc) and doing all of that in the same time is hard (unless u dun have gcd of course)
6. MD and TotT is not enough for geared dps at times
7. obviously u never been in a raid where the top aggro keeps changing mad (to the point decision is needed for salv)
8. tell me how u you stop ur DoTs from critting cause i always pull aggro when worms reappears thanks to my criting righteous vengeance
9. a tank have more than 1 CD excluding trinkets, and there are CD rotation as well as a tank swapping rotation if needed... heck even my LoH provides a CD for my MT (if u are wondering, mine -20% physical damage) so as pain suppression etc... no1 ask u to blow all ur CDs at 1 shot... good tanks only blow 1 CD at a time if u are wondering... blowing 2 CD in a row would get u screwed (by the boss as well as ur RL)... and obviously, u preempt big damage spikes by blowing CDs early
10. so the range puller is without a cooldown? without a range limit? and apparently u can outrun wutever chasing u all the time eh (not every1 have sprint lol)?

wow so u gotta use vulgarity now? tsk tsk
obviously i'm posting here to prove u are wrong about not over aggro = tank problem/ terribad (in ur words) tank and should be replace or how fury warr can't overthreat from crit strings...
as u can see from my raid progression, i think my tanks are doing a good job so far...

i love ppl dying to LJ on spawn =p

I did went overboard with my threat during heroic icc 5-man. Currently my warrior unbuff crit is 42% - with 5-man buff, it can go up close to 50%.

With rotation of WW, Cleave, BT, Slam, almost everytime, i can pull threat aggro from most tanks i pugged with.

Note: I dont even dare to enter the fight for the first 10% of the time. ie. when the boss hp goes down to say 95%, then i rush in..

I seen in pug Onyxia 25, always there will be a over-aggro'er in the pug raid. Which most of the time, raid wipe cause Onyxia cleave everyone in front of her when she turns.

This post has been edited by Frosty-Snowman: Dec 16 2009, 04:16 PM

1) because according to you, aggro is a problem when it isnt
2) according to you, yeah
3) list out all the fights if you want, and then give out a full list of fights available in WOTLK, then compare the %. sigh.
4) lock's issue is more on shatter being resisted. not so much the CD, and of course, comparison against other classes threat reduction talent
5) /cast hunter's mark is hard. ok.
6) stacks, multiple md/tott can be done. unless you dont bring any rogues/hunters at all, then its problem to your raid composition
7) umm, your aggro % dont change unless boss aggro reset. go look at that % on your target next time.
8) if your tank havent done anything (based on your description), then well, get your tank to peel it off you? and those adds shouldnt wtf1 shot you.
9) then you even further void your argument as the tank doesnt blow all his CDs. and thus he can generate aggro. unless your idea of a tank is autoattacking?
10) surely you dont want downie mode when the game is already so ez? they have range and cooldown limitations for a reason. and in this thread regarding warriors, theres intercept (to the main target, where the tank is) or intervene. its much more effecient, and reliable than sprint. not to mention on a lower cooldown. try harder :/

and umm, in my book, b1tching isnt really vulgar. of course you could be really innocent and all in which i offer my apologies then. perhaps i should rephrase to whining?
and since your tank is doing fine, why are you here in the first place? your only making your point invalid. my posts were referring to bad tanks. and you came in anyways implying your tank is bad.

---

Added on December 16, 2009, 4:32 pmconsidering your unbuffed crit of 42%, you are no doubt geared, compared to the tank you pug, is he on the same gear level as you are?
i mean, someone like me would still outaggro some random crap gear tank even with TOTT considering i do pull at least 4-5k dps on 5mans and 6-7k on raids. vanish/evasion could save me, but its on a longer cooldown.

in regards to onyxia, at least theres no more wing buffet. imagine p3 with that, and fears, and pre wotlk tanks. thats amongst the reason why people can still wipe onyxia despite being a guild thats capable of clearing BWL/AQ40

in fact, its even arguebly easier to do onyxia with less people back in the days. less chance of aggro probs, and less DB (back then onyxia's DB is done more when people are cluttered up)

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Dec 16 2009, 04:32 PM

1. aggro is a problem but we SOLVE the problem especially tanks stacking migation for heroic modes
2. it is hard which is why good dps-ers are hard to find, dpsing is more than just numbers
3. more examples are heroic anub p3 and lots of other fights depends on ur strat, it do happen and counting % is just pointless since it hinders progression
4. the CD is longer than usual and pre 3.3a 3 crits from a lock will aggro even with mindshatter
5. as i said doing a few things while having awareness, most fights are not tank and spank for range
6. hunters are usually not wanted for togc (especially anub) and rogues usually save their tott for some specific moments (like heroic anub ads) so ur strat of stacking is hurting the fight more... wut more using a warr tank to solo aoe tank ads...
7. it actually changes pretty often particularly gimmick fights (my ret is freaking insane on heroic10twins where my crappy geared ret pally can pull 9.5k lol)
8. as i've said, taunt can be resisted... and its not ez to balance migation and threat for tanks (to the point farming naxx for block gears)
9. ok so on pull, u gotta blow a CD then move the target into position while trying to build as much threat as u can (thus RF healing helps with the initial aggro to taunt)
10. ez on normal, hard on heroic mode.. how about classes without such speedup?

look back and ur whole point was fury warr could never pull aggro...
my point is fury warr is able to pull aggro epsecially during gimmick fights even with good tanks tanking (insanity10 tanks in fact)
if me posting would make my tanks (in ur words) bad, then i shall refrain from posting =p
after all knowing ur rep over at the forum, i think its a wiser choice after all...
because you can™

This post has been edited by evofantasy: Dec 16 2009, 08:10 PM

Example of warrior pulling aggro:
Stars align, everything procs at the same time while Icehowl is stunned.

My salv couldn't save him ):

icehowl is a fight that it is almost impossible for the tank to loose aggro

Arguing with an oblivious fcukwit is a waste of time, yet people still get baited. For years. Lol

1) doesnt mean tanks dont get their threat stats like str/hit/expertise etc upgraded, and the higher dps rogues/hunters do, the more tott/md aggro transfer they provide
2) dps - damage per second. you do dmg, thats it. if you die, be it pulling aggro or standing in faiyah, you dont do dmg, thus you fail. so it all comes back to the simple fact that dpsers, is all numbers.
3) not gonna list? how would you listing simple statistics hinder YOUR progression, or anyone's for that matter? rofl.
4) so you're saying, a warlock reducing 50% of his aggro, cannot deaggro the mob from the tank, or get below other dps'ers? then your tank(or other dps'ers) is having problems
5) didnt mention anything about tank and spank at all.
6) did i mention anything about stacking class? 2-3 rogues and/or hunters is HARDLY stacking at all considering a 25man size. unless your referring to 10man, where an ideal setup (considering 0 class stacking) is 1 of each class, and rogue/hunter is already 2 slot out of 10. furthermore, when have i mentioned to use specifically a warrior to tank adds? there are 4 tank classes, all 4 are very viable in aoe tank where a paladin or a death knight would have a slightly better advantage.
7) like i said, people who can transfer would benefit from this too, and its not like the tank is completely unaffected by such gimmick effects
8) "5. taunt cannot be resist, FD cant be resisted etc" is what you said, btw.
9) and thanks for proving me correct then.
10) only class without an aggro wipe/reduction and/or move speed up, is a death knight, shamans (assuming that he does not have imp ghost wolf, which most raiders dont, especially non enh) and lastly warriors having ret counting able to DS/self salv/self BOP. 3 classes out of 10. and those 3 classes, warriors are able to shield -> shield wall macro, DK on FP -> DP, shamans have ankh. and thats considering, said 3 classes (or the tank), f***ed up.

and my point was how easy aggro is and almost anyone (not just fury warriors) wont pull aggro, and even if they do, they have outs for their mess up. if one wants to REALLY pull aggro, he could've just run in before the tank did and blow all his cooldowns right at the start, there, he got aggro. but do you see how retarded that is? :/

and yes, you posting these issues up would make it seemingly as you are having bad tanks. if you arent having such issues, you wouldnt be posting them, so decide yourself.