today i did toc25 in a pug, and this fury warrior in crap gears won dual blade butcher and also hellion glaive...in a freaking raid he got 2 good as hell weapons :<

Sword, Mace, Axes. http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=46917

Polearm is not included. Loot Master fail lol. /facepalm

But the ArPen and relatively slow speed 3.5, makes it a fairly decent Arms weapon. Too bad its has no STR.
I still wont roll it against a drood or hunter for it.

they have to be either:

1) horribly terribad
2) wearing terribad gear (which comes back to 1)
3) all of above.

i mean, theres tricks of trade, misdirection, almost every class can have threat reduction skills and/or talent, or even a complete threat wipe. blizz already "removed" the technicality of threat being an "issue" in fights (lol vael) and the result is ez mode threat. so yeah, it comes back to my 3 points:

if you're playing with such terribad people, you're probably very masochistic to stick with him.

and pertaining this thread:
fury warriors themselves have a talent to reduce threat in zerk stance :/

doesnt take a raider to realize threat (or the game for that matter) is ez mode.
dont kid yeself in thinking the game is hard.

hell, i know for a fact fury warriors arent usually (of course, there are good warriors who tops it now and then) the ones topping meters and if they arent on the top, they wont have to care about threat as the ones on top are going to die first if threat's ever an issue (yes i do know that there are classes who can wipe threat while warriors cant)

1) in a 10man, with at least 1 rogue and/or hunter for MD/tricks, having the tank's threat being equalvalent, if not more than 1 person's worth of threat, if your fury warrior is still out aggroing, only 2 possibilities:
- terribad tank
- terribad fury warrior and most likely doing stuff like blowing cooldowns right at the start with the tank barely hitting the mob for aggro buildup

2) because tank only can hold aggro on 1 target right? lol
boss can reset, classes like rogues/hunters can still retricks/reMD
again, all 4 tanks are capable of holding aoe aggro, and worse come to worse on aoe, fury warrior can shield up and/or get PS (yes, threat) salv etc. arguebly, ps is better off on the tank as opposed to some random fury dps who couldnt wait a bit for aggro

3) and whos to say you cant burst down targets still? tricks/MD is more than enough for aggro issues in addition to ALL tank classes in WOTLK having huge buffs to threat generation/scaling. and again, worse come to worse theres always salv, ps, etc.

seriously though, if other raiders are not having such issues, i dont see why you would. unless your terribad.

1) 30seconds is a fairly short cooldown
2) GCD and 15 energy/9% base mana is too much to ask right? lol (btw, i only do it at the start of the fight, as i havent encounter any terribad tanks, yet.
3) 100% crit? 100% trinkeet proc? bloodlust before the tank even hit the mob/boss? ok.
4) 1? i think warlocks would like to argue with you. granted, they got their threat issues buffed on 3.3
5) umm, lol? if you're talking bout taunt/FD in middle of fights, given hunters have MD in the first place, what kinda players are you bringing? lol
6) no one is saying anything about let tank build aggro before dps. as far as im concerned, MD/TOTT is more than enough.
7) wow has a built in aggro meter (that % number, hello?) if you dont want to bother looking at it, you are to blame for 1) getting aggro in the first place 2) dying from aggro
8) its not even needed in the first place, and when it do, all it takes is a macro/focus macro to perform, especially when you know whos the usual aggro pulling idiot
9) if your tanks have to blow CDs at the start of the fight to not die, that tank is probably not fit for the encounter.
10) if the encounter is meant for massive ad spawning, there is usually an OT. so your point is moot. and if you're so awsm at raiding, i dont think you need me to tell you to get to the tank when theres a huge ezmode warning on top of your screen saying 'AGGRO FROM x' aye?

yes there are issues, however, those issues are definitely not game breaking, and it certainly would not trouble a seasoned raider all that much. especially if said raider has been through the harshness of vanilla WoW when aggro management is actually a bigger issue (SB CRIT MOLTEN GIANTS WHOOO, VAEL raid wipes WHOOOO, you get the idea)

i find it ironic when someone is having such trivial problems when hes playing a paladin, and more often than not a healer at that, while others, not so much. holy light pulling aggro QQ? time to replace the tank.

1) you wanna start assigning md/tott rotations now? (or easier, replace the tank)
2) yeah, dps is hard. i guess someone is being considerate
3) 1 fight (or a very few, less than a handful) means the same for the entire WOTLK raiding content ya?
4) soulshatter and mirror image. grats on raiding.
5) throwing traps is hard. raid icon marking (doable by raid assistance) is hard. kiting adds is even harder. (go speak to classic rhokdelar hunters)
6) dps is never enough, irrelevant
7) umm, its blizzard built in and its there on the target icon? you dont even have to download aggro meters (is omen even still maintained? rofl) nor do you have to pay much attention to it unless you're blind/deaf/colorblind etc and the aggro warnings are unreachable to you. to that point though, you're probably better off not raiding.
8) and everyone who has a brain would realize to town down a lil when they are reaching aggro threshold and/or performing excessive crit strings (not really, unless the tank is brain dead)
9) so, the said heroic encounters will be done under 1 minute or 2? what if the tank needs the CDs, and they are all blown off at the start of the fight? just wipe and QQ too bad RNG gg'ed tank? doesnt matter if your running heroic or non heroic raids, raid bosses (exception to overgeared raiders of said content ^^) do not die under a minute, and the need to blow all your CDs at the start, is a good indication that said tank (or healer) prolly needs more gear
10) every tank has a range puller, and people who got aggro, can goto OT. get real.

if urself, and your tank is supposedly so good at aggro, why are you b****ing here?

I know most of the time I die because of proximity agro - especially when a boss reappears . That is because of being too eager too soon

1) because according to you, aggro is a problem when it isnt
2) according to you, yeah
3) list out all the fights if you want, and then give out a full list of fights available in WOTLK, then compare the %. sigh.
4) lock's issue is more on shatter being resisted. not so much the CD, and of course, comparison against other classes threat reduction talent
5) /cast hunter's mark is hard. ok.
6) stacks, multiple md/tott can be done. unless you dont bring any rogues/hunters at all, then its problem to your raid composition
7) umm, your aggro % dont change unless boss aggro reset. go look at that % on your target next time.
8) if your tank havent done anything (based on your description), then well, get your tank to peel it off you? and those adds shouldnt wtf1 shot you.
9) then you even further void your argument as the tank doesnt blow all his CDs. and thus he can generate aggro. unless your idea of a tank is autoattacking?
10) surely you dont want downie mode when the game is already so ez? they have range and cooldown limitations for a reason. and in this thread regarding warriors, theres intercept (to the main target, where the tank is) or intervene. its much more effecient, and reliable than sprint. not to mention on a lower cooldown. try harder :/

and umm, in my book, b1tching isnt really vulgar. of course you could be really innocent and all in which i offer my apologies then. perhaps i should rephrase to whining?
and since your tank is doing fine, why are you here in the first place? your only making your point invalid. my posts were referring to bad tanks. and you came in anyways implying your tank is bad.

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Added on December 16, 2009, 4:32 pm

considering your unbuffed crit of 42%, you are no doubt geared, compared to the tank you pug, is he on the same gear level as you are?
i mean, someone like me would still outaggro some random crap gear tank even with TOTT considering i do pull at least 4-5k dps on 5mans and 6-7k on raids. vanish/evasion could save me, but its on a longer cooldown.

in regards to onyxia, at least theres no more wing buffet. imagine p3 with that, and fears, and pre wotlk tanks. thats amongst the reason why people can still wipe onyxia despite being a guild thats capable of clearing BWL/AQ40

in fact, its even arguebly easier to do onyxia with less people back in the days. less chance of aggro probs, and less DB (back then onyxia's DB is done more when people are cluttered up)

Example of warrior pulling aggro:
Stars align, everything procs at the same time while Icehowl is stunned.

My salv couldn't save him ):

uh... talking about threat issue on warriors..
I am a well geared arms warrior (full ilevel 245 and above) . I am having aggro issue actually, regardlss of whatever class the MT tank is. Currently what i am doing is: jumping 3-4 times ( takes about 3-5 secs) after the boss is engaged, then i charge in and start doing my dps. But it's still quite often for me to pull aggro off the the tanks (i have vigilance on me most of the times, pst warrior tanks and ask for vigilance is one of my macros).
Any suggestions? I know stop dpsing is the best way to reduce threat, but is there a way to avoid this?