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 What's the best option for your child saving, Got a newborn and wanna start planning

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howszat
post Sep 20 2009, 05:25 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Sep 19 2009, 12:31 AM)
That's the major problem for a lot of people.

Also not every property can have good rental income. Some may facing tenants problem as well as rental collecting issue, which is not uncommon.

Property investment is good, if acquired the correct one.

*
Exactly, too many "if"s.

If you acquired the right one, if you acquired at the right price, if you acquired at the right time, if you acquired in the right area, if you get the good tenants who don't damage your property, if you get good tenants that don't cause complaints from neighbours, if you get bad tenants you can kick them out easily, if you can collect rent on time, if they leave you can find good replacement tenants quickly.

If you can find such a good investment property and other investors haven't already beaten you to it.
SnarkySponge
post Sep 20 2009, 10:11 PM

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To be honest, I would say invest in silver and gold. It is going to beat out any mutual fund, IRA, long term investment, hands down. I check http://www.pmex.net for the spot prices and you can invest or buy and sell gold on that site as well. I don't mess around with investing in the market, because it is too volatile.
Jordy
post Sep 20 2009, 11:22 PM

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QUOTE(SnarkySponge @ Sep 20 2009, 10:11 PM)
To be honest, I would say invest in silver and gold. It is going to beat out any mutual fund, IRA, long term investment, hands down. I check http://www.pmex.net for the spot prices and you can invest or buy and sell gold on that site as well. I don't mess around with investing in the market, because it is too volatile.
*
On what basis? Based on your own observation? Please do not post such misleading statements.


Added on September 20, 2009, 11:23 pmAn article from yesterday's StarBizWeek which sums up TS' query.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by Jordy: Sep 20 2009, 11:23 PM
cherroy
post Sep 20 2009, 11:45 PM

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QUOTE(ehl @ Sep 20 2009, 01:26 AM)
Liquidity is not borrowing.
1) Dont borrow if you do not have a plan on repayment.
2) Borrow for investment not for luxury.

If Property market crash.
1) Unless you want to sell your properties, or else no financial impact.
2) Rental income may drop, but i doubt so if its at good location (urbanised), I am much more concern with high umemployment rate and general economy condition.

Bank is just like any other company, profit motivated.
a) If the bank dont give loan and etc, they will not have profits.
b) With profitability as an objective, they have to give as much bank loan as possible to whoever qualified (tier 1 customer).
c) If the bank wants profit and dont want risk. How can we fullfill it? Give them security..but dont give them FD unless in return they give more than 1x of your FD.
d) Ask bank what sort of security they want...high chances, their first answer is "do you have any properties".
*
Purchasing a property using housing loan which is for education plan is a borrowing or leveraged investment in the first place. I am not saying it is right or wrong, just one must understand taking up house loan or any loan, it is a long term commitment.

We are talking about children education plan by properties investment as proposed by forumers earlier. smile.gif

The liquidity part issue I raised, if one uses properties as children education fund/investment then, it could face liquidity issue afterwards when needed the money time.
You need to sell the properties when time due! if those money are needed for the education purposes.

The focal point of discussion is about children education plan, not properties investment itself. There is huge impact if the properties market crash or the properties is illiquid when time due.

Rental and location wise situation is something we can't control, today it might be highly sort after, but due to changing urbanisation plan, it could mean those properties won't have a buyer anymore after 10 or 20 years time, when the time for the education money. At least in my state, I had seen how a shoplot in the most prime area which cost more than 1 million 10-20 years ago, now more than 1/3 cannot find tenants, not to mention the buyer for it. Although the example is extreme and could be happen in low rate, it is something we must aware or understand of before commiting to it.
We are dealing a lot of 'if' which something we can't control nor can predict one.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against properties investment, just it is some issues which people should be understand of (especially for newbie in investment field), instead just advise other invest in properties will make good money, it is not as simple as that. No offence smile.gif

a) Ain't we just experience the worst financial crisis? See how many reit, properties company globally went under or need to fire-sale their assets because of inability to get refinancing from bank?
Banks are already well known, "lend you or push you the umbrella when it is sunny day, but refuse to lend the umbrella when raining day"

Yes, banks are always greedy one, they want to give as much loan as they can, because they can make more money. But when things change time, especially crisis time, situation become totally different.
When Lehman went under time, credit market was totally freezing up, nobody want to lend to each others even between banks because fear to each others.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Sep 20 2009, 11:51 PM
ehl
post Sep 24 2009, 10:40 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Sep 20 2009, 11:45 PM)
Purchasing a property using housing loan which is for education plan is a borrowing or leveraged investment in the first place. I am not saying it is right or wrong, just one must understand taking up house loan or any loan, it is a long term commitment.

We are talking about children education plan by properties investment as proposed by forumers earlier.  smile.gif

The liquidity part issue I raised, if one uses properties as children education fund/investment then, it could face liquidity issue afterwards when needed the money time.
You need to sell the properties when time due! if those money are needed for the education purposes.

The focal point of discussion is about children education plan, not properties investment itself. There is huge impact if the properties market crash or the properties is illiquid when time due.

Rental and location wise situation is something we can't control, today it might be highly sort after, but due to changing urbanisation plan, it could mean those properties won't have a buyer anymore after 10 or 20 years time, when the time for the education money. At least in my state, I had seen how a shoplot in the most prime area which cost more than 1 million 10-20 years ago, now more than 1/3 cannot find tenants, not to mention the buyer for it. Although the example is extreme and could be happen in low rate, it is something we must aware or understand of before commiting to it.
We are dealing a lot of 'if' which something we can't control nor can predict one.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against properties investment, just it is some issues which people should be understand of (especially for newbie in investment field), instead just advise other invest in properties will make good money, it is not as simple as that. No offence  smile.gif

a) Ain't we just experience the worst financial crisis? See how many reit, properties company globally went under or need to fire-sale their assets because of inability to get refinancing from bank?
Banks are already well known, "lend you or push you the umbrella when it is sunny day, but refuse to lend the umbrella when raining day"

Yes, banks are always greedy one, they want to give as much loan as they can, because they can make more money. But when things change time, especially crisis time, situation become totally different.
When Lehman went under time, credit market was totally freezing up, nobody want to lend to each others even between banks because fear to each others.
*
Investment in properties is consider a passive investment, but in reality, managing your investment is the challenging part. You need to understand how to protect your investment not to fall into the above mention situations. You have to consider it as a business rather than a passive investment.

US problem is more toward sub-prime loan issues, Those that are rich and solid, will not have a single impact if they want to borrow, if we can reach solid wealth stage, the bank will be most willing to lend you the money.

wodenus
post Sep 24 2009, 10:47 AM

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QUOTE(ehl @ Sep 24 2009, 10:40 AM)
Investment in properties is consider a passive investment, but in reality, managing your investment is the challenging part. You need to understand how to protect your investment not to fall into the above mention situations. You have to consider it as a business rather than a passive investment.

US problem is more toward sub-prime loan issues, Those that are rich and solid, will not have a single impact if they want to borrow, if we can reach solid wealth stage, the bank will be most willing to lend you the money.
*
And they'll be the first to bug you at the first sign of trouble tongue.gif

klfong
post Sep 24 2009, 11:13 AM

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Example of Real Estate crash, which the worse than you can imagine
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bi...?xct=gd.e070220

Gold Price clearly crash after 80's recession
http://goldprice.org/30-year-gold-price-history.html

You can invest in REIT that gives about 10% dividend annually, and liquidate whenever you feel to do so.

There is no infinite rise or fall, the concept is simple. When you see infinite fall prepare to buy as much as you can, and sell to those who sees infinite rise in the future.

Since you have about 16 years horizon, keep the money in FD
and then....
when the next crash comes you will have the bullet to dump your money in stocks
Why gamble with property which is hard to liquidate and expenisve?
Keep 100% in cash and when crisis hits, you just need to use 25% of your money if you are conservative
keep remaining 75% as cash, invest 25%, and get 3 to 5x return from your 25%

then it is 75% + 25%X5 = 200%

US is now in deep trouble, so .... I think the opportunity is still there, when there is no trouble, you have to be careful. Remember 97 crisis in Malaysia, I have checked the history of Maybank stock price in 97. It is RM2 before 2x split and Sime Darby RM0.5, see their prices now.

This post has been edited by klfong: Sep 24 2009, 11:18 AM
cherroy
post Sep 24 2009, 11:28 AM

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QUOTE(klfong @ Sep 24 2009, 11:13 AM)
Example of Real Estate crash, which the worse than you can imagine
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bi...?xct=gd.e070220

Gold Price clearly crash after  80's recession
http://goldprice.org/30-year-gold-price-history.html

You can invest in REIT that gives about 10% dividend annually, and liquidate whenever you feel to do so.

There is no infinite rise or fall, the concept is simple. When you see infinite fall prepare to buy as much as you can, and sell to those who sees infinite rise in the future.

Since you have about 16 years horizon, keep the money in FD
and then....
when the next crash comes you will have the bullet to dump your money in stocks
Why gamble with property which is hard to liquidate and expenisve?
Keep 100% in cash and when crisis hits, you just need to use 25% of your money if you are conservative
keep remaining 75% as cash, invest 25%, and get 3 to 5x return from your 25%

then it is 75% + 25%X5 = 200%

US is now in deep trouble, so .... I think the opportunity is still there, when there is no trouble, you have to be careful. Remember 97 crisis in Malaysia, I have checked the history of Maybank stock price in 97. It is RM2 before 2x split and Sime Darby RM0.5, see their prices now.
*
Sime never reach Rm0.50 as far as my memory serves. But CIMB did fall to RM1.80, this I can confirm.

The major risk and problem is not about picking when recession or crisis hit. The major difficulty (and weakness for most people) is picking the right stocks or properties (or any investment target) to invest during the crisis. Malaysia economy or stock market might recover from 1997, but certain properties and stocks might not. Eg. UEM Bhd has been delisted (impact of 1997) while for US, GM no longer exist. (Current GM is the new restructured GM, not the old GM, different company already, although it is still GM)
So even the economy recover afterwards if pick the wrong target, your investment won't able to recover. So must choose wisely is the key.

Same with properties, some shoplots were being abandoned during 1997 crisis, which after 12 years passed, and economy growth again, those shoplots still sitting there and being left to be rotten.


klfong
post Sep 24 2009, 11:35 AM

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We can change the proportion, 50% cash + 50% index. Index return is not too bad either. biggrin.gif
But to get 3 to 4x, the only way is to identify survivors of the crash that have been beaten badly. So I think we should let a few big and significant companies to file bankruptcy first, then here comes the panic, when there is a government intervention, then be prepared to invest in a few companies that is too important to fail.

EDIT: GM balance sheet is in crisis even before the crisis, so I do not think it is a risk that I will take

This post has been edited by klfong: Sep 24 2009, 11:38 AM
Pai
post Sep 24 2009, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(rakyat @ Sep 18 2009, 09:52 AM)
Buy an afforatable property - more expensive then UT or education policy but you can get rental income and if the location is correct in 20yr time returns will be much better.
*
I agree with Rakyat and cynthusc to invest in properties for your kid's education. But like to clear the some misconcpetion that :


1. Properties are expensive -
Spend 20k d/p today on a 200k apartment and get 200k equity after 20 years(assume the property did not appreciate at all). One needs to invest at least 3 times more in UT or education policy to achieve the same 200k.

Some of us little or no $$$$ to buy properties, and that CANT be expensive tongue.gif

2. Properties are illiquid -
a. It should not matter as we r talking about a long term investment plan here.
b. If you can sell 5% below market price your property today will most likely sold within 1 month.
c. Depending on the interest rate situation after 20 years, one can always opt to refinance. Just need 3 months waiting period (assuming banking process did not improve at all over the next 20 years)

This post has been edited by Pai: Sep 24 2009, 11:41 AM
klfong
post Sep 24 2009, 11:48 AM

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QUOTE(Pai @ Sep 24 2009, 11:39 AM)
I agree with Rakyat to invest in properties for your kid's education. But like to clear the misconcpetion that :


1. Properties are expensive -
Spend 20k d/p today on a 200k apartment and get 200k equity after 20 years(assume the property did not appreciate at all). One needs to invest at least 3 times more in UT or education policy to achieve the same 200k.
*
What if... it depreciates to 100K? Then now cash seems to be a better investment. Supply and demand is a very complex thing, keeping real estate as an investment will finally end up with a crash. When everyone keeps an additional house and wants to sell it when they retire, suddenly there is a slew of supply, then no buyers (assumption: population does not grow by 2x 20 yrs later), the price is going to crash.

EDIT: I do not know the current status of real estate market of Malaysia, nor I have the price index, but anyway, there is no investment with guaranteed return, must understand what you want to invest thoroughly.

This post has been edited by klfong: Sep 24 2009, 11:52 AM
rakyat
post Sep 24 2009, 12:37 PM

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Guys this has turned into a debate btw market optimist & pessimist... there is no crash-proof guaranteed bestest investment vehicle. Every investment is vunerable to market conditions.

The gist of the matter is to set aside some $$$ and invest it in something that TS is comfortable with (based on his risk appetite) and mayb diversify a small percentage to riskier products for higher returns.

My advise is 'save 1st b/4 expenses' as oppose to 'expenses 1st then save what ever is left' and start now
ehl
post Sep 24 2009, 01:12 PM

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QUOTE(Pai @ Sep 24 2009, 11:39 AM)
I agree with Rakyat and cynthusc to invest in properties for your kid's education. But like to clear the some misconcpetion that :


1. Properties are expensive -
Spend 20k d/p today on a 200k apartment and get 200k equity after 20 years(assume the property did not appreciate at all). One needs to invest at least 3 times more in UT or education policy to achieve the same 200k.

Some of us little or no $$$$ to buy properties, and that CANT be expensive  tongue.gif

2. Properties are illiquid -
a. It should not matter as we r talking about a long term investment plan here.
b. If you can sell 5% below market price your property today will most likely sold within 1 month.
c. Depending on the interest rate situation after 20 years, one can always opt to refinance. Just need 3 months waiting period (assuming banking process did not improve at all over the next 20 years)
*
I agreed with Pai.

There is alot of investment in the world, all of us just have to weight the pro & con of each to me, i found that properties is the best.

Yet, you need to comprehend alot of stuff from choosing the right property to financing it to subsequent cashing out (not necessary selling it)
Not to mention, post acquistion of managing your tenant.

All the forumner are contributing toward the benefits of further understanding, what we are going to face when we invest in property or other investment.
cherroy
post Sep 24 2009, 03:13 PM

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QUOTE(klfong @ Sep 24 2009, 11:35 AM)
But to get 3 to 4x, the only way is to identify survivors of the crash that have been beaten badly. So I think we should let a few big and significant companies to file bankruptcy first, then here comes the panic, when there is a government intervention, then be prepared to invest in a few companies that is too important to fail.

EDIT: GM balance sheet is in crisis even before the crisis, so I do not think it is a risk that I will take
*
AIG before crisis, everything look beauty and solid, nobody knows the risk behind of it, even its management board. So even though Gov must bailout AIG, AIG might not recover at all. AIG has been under reversed stock split 20:1, so even now surge to USD40, in actual sense, it is ony USD2, compared to more than USD60 years back.

So there is no guarantee the gov intervention will prevent the company share price from collapsing. Yes, they won't let the company fail, but it doesn't mean the company has rosy and solid defence for the economy fallout.

QUOTE(Pai @ Sep 24 2009, 11:39 AM)
I agree with Rakyat and cynthusc to invest in properties for your kid's education. But like to clear the some misconcpetion that :

2. Properties are illiquid -
a. It should not matter as we r talking about a long term investment plan here.
b. If you can sell 5% below market price your property today will most likely sold within 1 month.
c. Depending on the interest rate situation after 20 years, one can always opt to refinance. Just need 3 months waiting period (assuming banking process did not improve at all over the next 20 years)
*
b) Not necessary across. Some areas which has passed its prime time, may not find buyer even lower 10-20% which you see lot of shoplots being abandoned one. This particular true on shop lots and those shopping mall that in non-strategic area one. The statement mostly true on residential properties generally which is not hard to find buyer, but for commercial real estate different story.

c) I would say we shouldn't be too complacency on the refinancing side, even though generally there is not much difficulty. As when there is real issue or crisis unfold in financial sector, banks can reluctantly to lend at all which clearly been shown in recent US financial crisis. Also over last decade, most people never experience the high interest environment, so refinancing can be costly as well. Although it is not the case for near term future. Just we cannot take for granted, refinancing will be easy and cheap to get smile.gif

QUOTE(ehl @ Sep 24 2009, 01:12 PM)
There is alot of investment in the world, all of us just have to weight the pro & con of each to me, i found that properties is the best.

Yet, you need to comprehend alot of stuff from choosing the right property to financing it to subsequent cashing out (not necessary selling it)
Not to mention, post acquistion of managing your tenant.

All the forumner are contributing toward the benefits of further understanding, what we are going to face when we invest in property or other investment.
*
Yup, there are lot of investment target around, not every single investment target is surely good, nor bad also not necessary suit to everyone. Everyone financial situation could be totally different which may suit or not suit to particular investment target.

Yup, whatever we discussed here is bring out the points of it, so that whenever we make decision, we have clear mind and knowing risk of it, instead of just pure saying properties investment is the one should be in which can make money one which could lead to newbie in investment field has the wrong mindset. No offence and don't get me wrong. I still view properties investment is one of good target, just it is not as simple and must be gaining money one even one has it over the long term. smile.gif
Pai
post Sep 24 2009, 04:46 PM

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QUOTE(klfong @ Sep 24 2009, 11:48 AM)
What if... it depreciates to 100K? Then now cash seems to be a better investment. Supply and demand is a very complex thing, keeping real estate as an investment will finally end up with a crash. When everyone keeps an additional house and wants to sell it when they retire, suddenly there is a slew of supply, then no buyers (assumption: population does not grow by 2x 20 yrs later), the price is going to crash.

EDIT: I do not know the current status of real estate market of Malaysia, nor I have the price index, but anyway, there is no investment with guaranteed return, must understand what you want to invest thoroughly.
*
Simple facts smile.gif :

1. Show me a decent place that has depreciated by 100k in the past few years apart from Bukit Antarabangsa and Lembah Beringin? Pls exclude unsafe properties.

2. Majority of population cant afford to buy a property in decent areas, but they can afford to rent.

Malaysia real estate market is not known for its speculative nature. Prices has been on the up albeit on a much slower pace VS say SG. In the past 4 years, I've yet to see even one new development that is selling below its developer's price, let alone 100k below.


Added on September 24, 2009, 4:53 pm
QUOTE(cherroy @ Sep 24 2009, 03:13 PM)
b) Not necessary across. Some areas which has passed its prime time, may not find buyer even lower 10-20% which you see lot of shoplots being abandoned one. This particular true on shop lots and those shopping mall that in non-strategic area one. The statement mostly true on residential properties generally which is not hard to find buyer, but for commercial real estate different story.

c) I would say we shouldn't be too complacency on the refinancing side, even though generally there is not much difficulty. As when there is real issue or crisis unfold in financial sector, banks can reluctantly to lend at all which clearly been shown in recent US financial crisis. Also over last decade, most people never experience the high interest environment, so refinancing can be costly as well. Although it is not the case for near term future. Just we cannot take for granted, refinancing will be easy and cheap to get  smile.gif
*
b. Agree with ya hence for this purpose I only advocate residentials. Maybe for this purpose one should not go for anything less than a completed highrise, with stable rentals.

c. My personal take on refinancing is that it will only get easier in the future, assuming a person maintains a decent credit standing. It will not be to difficult for TS to get cash out of his/her properties 20 years from now.


Added on September 24, 2009, 5:02 pmAnyhow, Im not saying properties is the bestest option for TS. However, properties offer TS the flexibility to use OPM to generate his education fund, unlike general savings, equities, UT, gold & silver etc whereby his has to come out with his own funds.

There a reason why banks allows so much leverage for properties, but not for any other *investments. wink.gif

*at least for the average joes, its diff if u r a private banking customer

This post has been edited by Pai: Sep 24 2009, 05:03 PM
ehl
post Sep 24 2009, 06:06 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Sep 24 2009, 03:13 PM)

b) Not necessary across. Some areas which has passed its prime time, may not find buyer even lower 10-20% which you see lot of shoplots being abandoned one. This particular true on shop lots and those shopping mall that in non-strategic area one. The statement mostly true on residential properties generally which is not hard to find buyer, but for commercial real estate different story.

c) I would say we shouldn't be too complacency on the refinancing side, even though generally there is not much difficulty. As when there is real issue or crisis unfold in financial sector, banks can reluctantly to lend at all which clearly been shown in recent US financial crisis. Also over last decade, most people never experience the high interest environment, so refinancing can be costly as well. Although it is not the case for near term future. Just we cannot take for granted, refinancing will be easy and cheap to get  smile.gif
 

*
b) Not sure about where where is those passed prime time areas, but look at history, if you have properties in center of KL, its worth alot of money just for the land. Untill now they have not past their prime time.

If not mistaken, the decrease or stagnent properties price happen at non strategic areas (urbanised).

c) You must be able to control and monitor your gearing, dont over commit and must always have contingency plans for high interest and others factors.


klfong
post Sep 24 2009, 06:59 PM

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QUOTE(Pai @ Sep 24 2009, 04:46 PM)
Simple facts smile.gif :

1. Show me a decent place that has depreciated by 100k in the past few years apart from Bukit Antarabangsa and Lembah Beringin? Pls exclude unsafe properties.

2. Majority of population cant afford to buy a property in decent areas, but they can afford to rent.

Malaysia real estate market is not known for its speculative nature. Prices has been on the up albeit on a much slower pace VS say SG. In the past 4 years, I've yet to see even one new development that is selling below its developer's price, let alone 100k below.

*
You are actually speculating that others' do not speculate. wink.gif

No la, I am just exaggerating. My main point is only invest what you really understand. You do not have to relearn others' mistakes.
ehl
post Sep 24 2009, 07:46 PM

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QUOTE(klfong @ Sep 24 2009, 06:59 PM)
No la, I am just exaggerating. My main point is only invest what you really understand. You do not have to relearn others' mistakes.
*
I agreed. If possible modify it to become better or tune it as the enviroment change. Mistake sometimes costly.
Bizmind
post Sep 25 2009, 12:43 AM

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Do you want to know what is the best investment?

Health.

When you take care of your children's health, they will grow up genius.

Another good investment to combine with health is leverage.
You help your children to be healthy. Your friends also wants their children to be healthy. You share with them. They are satisfied and also share with their friend. Without you knowing it, your investment become your career.

Good bye to your boss and hello to your freedom.
TSawiekupo
post Sep 26 2009, 08:48 AM

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Huhuh.. just back from holiday and finish going through all the replies. I must thank each and everyone of you for all the great advice and ideas. Hope u guys dun fight2 arr coz everyone hv their own opinions and experience so one might work for the others and one might not at all.. wink.gif

However I'm interested to learn more about this post from xuzen

i) My wife and I both opened a SSPN a/c RM 3Kx2 p.a. mainly for tax benefit. By the time my kid reach IPT level, it should have abt RM 100K, ready cash.

(Do you mean I have to dump 6k per year into SSPN to avoid the tax? Or what is the minimum amount that need to be deposited into the account to be eligible for the RM3k deduction every year)


ii) Bought a Med Card (very important, you will definitely need it, cost of paying hospital bill is more than annual premium of the card, this I guarantee)
(Any idea or site on where I can get this Med Card? And what kind of package that I should opt for? Is this different from company medical card because my company do give a mediclinic card but I think it only cover stuff and normal clinic visit)

iii) Bought a Investment Link Life Assurance with Critical Illness Rider under my kid's name. I selected aggressive fund to maximize the rtn. Should have abt RM 60K Cash value by the time my kid reach IPT level.
(Err, again can share with me the url or any branch in KL/PJ that I can visit for more info)

iv) Continue to invest in equities on my own.
(what does this mean?)

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