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 CALLING ALL MEDICAL STUDENTS! V2, medical student chat+info center

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Huskies
post Feb 22 2012, 05:49 PM

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QUOTE(podrunner @ Feb 22 2012, 05:39 PM)
Review the situation? Does it not mean that with all the "tightening up", only the best (in terms of OVERALL criteria) will be considered for the course in these two countries? The reality is, a basic MBBS is just a degree, that's basically it!  biggrin.gif

With the sheer numbers of med schools and students being churned out in the country, it's fast becoming "everyone can get mbbs!". Following the mbbs, they need to be trained/interned, and this is the worry, if you ask me.  Huge numbers of mbbs grads unfortunately means that employers (private sector) and our neighbour will now HAVE to become very selective. Where one gets employed/trained, and registered, will determine one's potential to (hopefully) specialise in their area of interest/skill.

Side note, is the Labour Party in Australia friendlier to international students, or the opposition led by Tony Abbott?  Watching news on australia network now, breaking news - Kevin Rudd's resignation as Foreign Minister.
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ALP is definitely more international student friendly than the Coalition - If Tony Abbott has his way, then we'll be seeing more of stop the boats, stop immigration now
Huskies
post Mar 28 2012, 11:57 PM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 28 2012, 11:19 PM)
With the amount of med schools in Malaysia, quality of medical education is deteriorating fast due to lack of quality lecturers as well as quality students. I was shocked to hear a HO informing me that a patient's GCS was zero (and this HO is from a local gov med school).

Thus, i strongly suggest a common licencing exam to weed out all the incompetent medical graduates, in order to maintain the quality of our healthcare. In addition, it will also eliminate biases towards medical graduates from certain schools / countries.
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A common licensing exam is great and all, but how transparent/efficient do you think MOH/MMC can carry this out?

And then of course there is the issue of government scholarship/PTPTN recipients (public medical school graduates for that matter too) failing the licensing exam. How do you plan to recoup the public funds splashed on them - arbitrarily if a medical student costs society 200K to educate and the licensing exam has a pass rate of 90% (the USMLE has roughly that amount of passes for US medical graduates) and assuming there are 4000 publicly funded medical students each year - that's 400 x 200K= 80 million ringgit each year down the drain
Huskies
post Mar 29 2012, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 29 2012, 01:40 PM)
When i said common licensing exam, i meant COMMON for all, both local and foreign graduates. Thus, it will address the problem of bad students locally.

And i dun see why anyone should object this (besides those with political agenda). After all, many developed countries (US, Canada, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan) have a common medical board exam, which all medical graduates are required to pass in order to practice in the respective countries, regardless of where they graduated from.
I suggest MMC to form a medical exam board, consisting of senior professors from all local universities or abroad (guest examiners) and senior clinicians from both gov and private hospital. Also, we can divide the exam into few parts, like USMLE, thus limiting the number of applicants for the clinical exam (since some of them will fail in the theory part).
I guess we have no other viable choices besides a common licensing exam, since it is very difficult to de-recognize a degree, and also equally difficult to maintain strict intake requirement among local medical schools (as both will require even greater political effort and will).

Of course, what i am saying here might sound like fairy tale, given the political situation in Msia. However, as long as we medical professionals have a common understanding, i am sure we can do something about it, hopefully.
In other countries, scholarship recipients are almost always the creme de la creme. However, the same can't be applied in Msian context. I am sure you know whom should we blame, and what should we do in the next GE.  rolleyes.gif

P.S I am just sharing my humble dua cents here. You are free to disagree with me but pls avoid inflammatory remarks. Thx  thumbup.gif
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I hate to be cynical, but I'm inclined to agree with limeuu here, a common licensing exam is economically/politically unfeasible. My point is, why bother training unemployable medical graduates to begin with? Introducing a licensing exam whilst still allowing medical schools to churn out dodgy medical graduates at the expense of taxpayers is utterly irresponsible...
Huskies
post Mar 29 2012, 09:22 PM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 29 2012, 08:41 PM)
Hi, thank you for your reply. I guess you are not fully aware of the situation in Msia. Thus allow me to explain further:

1. It is a well established fact that majority of the medical graduates from a certain Eastern European country are incompetent. Yet MMC has done absolutely nothing about it, as it is politically incorrect to de-recognize a medical degree. Just look at what happened when Ukraine was de-recognized.

2. There are already 30+ medical schools in Msia, and more are still popping up despite the moratorium. Thus, it is safe to assume that no one is Msia has the political will or might to put a halt to this.

3. Even in local gov med schools, intake requirement can be lax due to racial / political factor. There's even a uni which admits student based purely on ethnicity instead of meritocracy.

4. Scholarship is given out, again, based largely on ethnicity instead of meritocracy.

Thus based on the points mentioned above, it is safe to assume that we are already "churning out dodgy medical graduates at the expense of taxpayers". Hence the question, do you want these "dodgy medical graduates" to be employed in our medical system? What if one day one of them were to attend to you or your love ones?
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While I concur that an assessment/exam of sorts (commissioning a foreign body such as the ACGME would be a more viable option than starting from scratch, logistically speaking) should be in place for individuals already in the system, it is not in fact addressing the problem at its root - I'm still convinced that killing off these colleges (or at the very least amalgamation) is the only solution in the long run.



Ah...who am I kidding anyway? This is Malaysia after all, I just have to remind myself about that... biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Huskies: Mar 29 2012, 09:27 PM
Huskies
post Mar 29 2012, 10:06 PM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 29 2012, 09:48 PM)
Are you aware of the fact that almost all private medical schools have the backing of political parties? Do you know how many Tan Sri and Datuk Seri would come after you if you were to shut off their goldmines?

How about those foreign universities? We can't kill them off and definitely we can't de-recognize them for reasons stated in my previous post.

Let's be more realistic. A common licensing exam is indeed a more practical way to address the problem we are facing right now.

Btw, licensing exam for those already in the system will be next to impossible as it requires even greater political might than to kill off those colleges (you dun expect our DG, consultants, profs to take the licensing exam as well, do you?). However, i do support this idea (for HOs or junior MOs), as many of them are not that competent anyway.  smile.gif
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I meant to say medical students and maybe HOs, but now that you've mentioned it, I think it's probably a good idea to put senior doctors up for re-certification, say every 10 years, just so they don't get rusty with their knowledge......but that's just wishful thinking on my part smile.gif
Huskies
post Apr 13 2012, 01:03 PM

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QUOTE(Syd G @ Apr 13 2012, 12:46 PM)
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/break...amid-baby-boom/

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


Another motivation to migrate laugh.gif ..
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I wouldn't be surprised if Australia closes its door to foreign doctors in the near future (a la 80s and early 90s). The medical student numbers here have quadrupled in less than 5 years, and I doubt the Commonwealth government would ever risk the fiasco of unemployed domestic medical graduates.

On another note, it seems that Australia is revamping its skilled migration system again - Skillselect

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-edu...x-1226323204316

"For example, accounting is on the official skilled occupation list, but would be subject to a movable ceiling.

"So even if accounting remains on the list there is no guarantee that the applicant will get a place," Dr Birrell said.
Rec Coverage 28 Day pass

"The immigration department will take the best candidates, presumably based on points."

The points test emphasises English proficiency, high-level qualifications and work experience. The new ceilings will apply to points-tested visas, such as the independent skilled migrant category, which was heavily favoured by overseas students.

Before policy was tightened, large numbers of students with a narrow range of occupations -- notably commercial cookery, accountancy and hairdressing -- won visas.

It was relatively easy for students to parlay quick and cheap courses into permanent residency without obvious improvement in designated skill shortages."

Death knell for Aussie business schools?

This post has been edited by Huskies: Apr 13 2012, 01:11 PM
Huskies
post Apr 13 2012, 01:52 PM

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QUOTE(cckkpr @ Apr 13 2012, 01:15 PM)
Oz business schools are favored by Malaysians over Uk qualifications as much easier route to become Accountants n not likely to change in the near future.
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Probably true for Malaysians, but what about mainland Chinese students? It's no secret that they're in Australia for the migration (that and they also make up the largest student group in Aus business schools)
Huskies
post Apr 13 2012, 03:26 PM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ Apr 13 2012, 03:05 PM)
under existing, and the coming revised conditions, for a fresh graduate wanting to apply for independent skilled migration, they need the full 20 points from ielts band 8, otherwise they will not have enough points....

that is not that difficult for many msians and sporeans.....

but it is almost impossible to most prc....

485 still exist, but even if they get jobs, they will still need the 885 (or the new 189) after the 18 months is up...and will still need the full 20 points....
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but under present conditions, anyone who passes the 65-point eligibility test will be granted the 885 visa (i.e. there is no occupation ceiling/cap). With Skillselect, one can only put in an expression of interest (EOI), so even if the minimum requirements are met , there is no guarantee that one will be granted the 189 visa - and I'm assuming the number of applicants will far exceed the number of places available.

This post has been edited by Huskies: Apr 13 2012, 03:30 PM
Huskies
post Apr 15 2012, 07:59 PM

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QUOTE(Crypt @ Apr 15 2012, 07:22 PM)
How is it even possible for this graduate to pass? If the med school wanted money then they should never let such med students graduate and repeat the year until they pass...

I think university should have (or already have) OSCE test every year to test their basic clinical skill before graduated.
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Quality essentially becomes a non-issue for medical schools in say, Russia, since they know well enough that foreign graduates (mostly Malaysian) will never work for the Russian medical system. They have very little reputation going for them anyways, so why bother retaining students when they can allocate the slot to more gullible students? Also it speaks volumes for the quality of doctors in Indonesia when you see the number of Indonesian patients seeking treatment in Malaysia - and yet we send our students there for medical training. It would be the funniest/most ironical thing ever if an Indonesian travels all the way to Malaysia only to have an Indonesia-trained Malaysian doctor treat him or her laugh.gif
Huskies
post May 21 2012, 11:57 PM

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Looks like Curtin Medical School will get the go ahead after all - now let's see if they bring the medical course to Sarawak a la Monash smile.gif

https://sphere.curtin.edu.au/teaching/med-n..._med_school.cfm

Oh I should also mention that the University of South Australia and Charles Sturt University are lobbying pretty hard for their slice in the medical education business - odds on Australia having 3 more medical schools by the end of this decade.

This post has been edited by Huskies: May 22 2012, 12:04 AM
Huskies
post May 22 2012, 10:55 AM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ May 22 2012, 08:50 AM)
it appears australia does have the need for more doctors, especially the regional areas, but there is a bottleneck in the internship phase, due to the 50% increase in graduating doctors at the moment....

they have been absorbing as many as 1k img immigrants each year all these while.....

however, with already 18 medical schools for a population of only 22 million, they are starting to look like msia if they approve more med schools....especially when several of the new ones have not even graduated any student.....

it will take a long time for curtin's proposed new programme to get established, so they will not be bringing it to miri any time soon, and i think the circumstances will have changed by then.....it will no longer be lucrative to start med schools.....
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It's worth noting that Curtin is proposing a 5-year undergraduate medical degree when most other medical schools in Australia are adopting the postgraduate approach. The way I see it, they're trying to entice school-leavers by offering direct entry, much like how the law and medical courses in Monash Clayton benefitted from the introduction of the Melbourne Model. Incidentally, 2014 is also the year UWA begins its Doctor of Medicine programme...


Huskies
post May 27 2012, 06:54 PM

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Update on 2013 internship situation in NSW:

AMC graduates will no longer be considered for internships in NSW (an Australian first)

Priority list for 2013:

Category 1
Australian Citizens and Permanent Residents
1.1 Guaranteed
Commonwealth Supported Place (CSP) and domestic full fee paying graduates who graduated from a NSW university
1.2
Commonwealth Supported Place (CSP) and domestic full fee paying graduates from an interstate or New Zealand university who completed Year 12 studies in NSW
1.3
CSP graduates and domestic full fee medical graduates of interstate or New Zealand universities
Category 2
New Zealand Citizens
2.1
Graduates of New Zealand universities resident in New Zealand
Category 3
Non-Permanent Residents
3.1
Graduates of NSW universities
3.2
Graduates of interstate and New Zealand universities
3.3
Graduates of university campuses accredited by the Australian Medical Council outside of Australia and New Zealand

*I'm pretty sure 3.3 refers to Monash Sunway (again, first in Australia to distinguish between Sunway and Clayton graduates)

Here's what the Health Education and Training Institute has to say:

"Although it's difficult to predict the number of interstate applicants, HETI is aware of an increase in the overall number of medical students graduating in NSW this year and therefore would like to advise all applicants, that it is highly unlikely that all applicants in category 3 of the NSW Health priority list will receive an offer of internship for the NSW 2013 clinical year."



Huskies
post May 28 2012, 01:49 AM

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QUOTE(tqeh @ May 27 2012, 09:28 PM)
Er... Please note that for NSW Internship 2012, AMC graduates were not considered for internships.
And please look at SAIMET (south australia), they are also distinguishing between Sunway and Clayton Campus.
Also Western Australia, they are seperating NZ and Aus international grads, too, things are changing to the worse.
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Ok, I stand corrected on the NSW statement and yes, things are looking rather gloomy for international students, especially those in NSW and Queensland.


Added on May 28, 2012, 2:04 am
QUOTE(limeuu @ May 27 2012, 10:24 PM)
i think the lowering of entry criteria in sunway may have something to do with this as well....
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I'm surprised Australian citizens or permanent residents haven't tried to "back-door" through Monash Sunway, since it has the lowest entry requirement for an AMC accredited degree. It'd be interesting if they did though, seeing how they are not currently classified under any priority list. For instance - a Malaysian with Australian permanent residency, completes high school in Australia, fails to gain entry into an Australian medical school but is subsequently accepted into Monash Sunway...



This post has been edited by Huskies: May 28 2012, 02:04 AM
Huskies
post May 28 2012, 11:27 AM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ May 28 2012, 08:32 AM)
there may be a rule against oz citizens and prs taking the course at sunway......

for imu, they are prohibited from matching to oz/nz.........
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Interesting, because Monash Sunway is significantly cheaper even for a domestic full fee paying student - there's nothing written on the application form which specifically prohibits Australian citizens and PRs from applying to Monash Sunway. And besides, a Malaysian can always choose to conceal his or her PR status...
Huskies
post May 29 2012, 02:16 PM

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"AMSA president James Churchill said reports released last week by the Postgraduate Medical Council of Victoria and the NSW Health Education and Training Institute had allowed AMSA to calculate there would be a shortfall of 146 internships in NSW and 169 in Victoria."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-a...w-1226370444833

Looks like NSW and Victoria are the first states to bite the dust - international students graduating this year to be the first "casualties" of the medical student tsunami.


Huskies
post May 29 2012, 04:53 PM

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QUOTE(podrunner @ May 29 2012, 03:43 PM)
Doesn't look like AMSA has managed to push anything through this year. It will be interesting to know where the 315 will be eventually placed.
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Considering most international students in Qld, Vic and NSW are from North America, I'd assume they have a back-up plan in the form of the USMLE - as for Malaysians and Singaporeans, the MOHH is doing a recruitment drive in July: http://www.physician.mohh.com.sg/aus_recruitment.html
Huskies
post May 30 2012, 09:21 AM

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More statistics courtesy of AMSA:

2012 expected internship shortage by state:

NSW: 146

QLD: 110

VIC: 169

SA: TBC, likely to be ~40

TAS: 50

WA: 28

ACT: TBC, likely to be a shortage

NT: -39, no medical school there

Total shortage: 464

http://www.amsa.org.au/internship-crisis

And it's not even the peak of the "tsunami" - 2013 will see an additional 300-400 graduates nationwide.

At this point, it's safe to say that AMC and maybe Monash Sunway graduates have almost zero chance of getting an internship in Australia since the quoted number of 464 does not even include them.

This post has been edited by Huskies: May 30 2012, 09:27 AM
Huskies
post May 30 2012, 10:44 AM

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QUOTE(podrunner @ May 30 2012, 10:03 AM)
Among the internationals, is there a percentage breakdown of the different nationalities? I think Singaporeans will be least affected as most do not mind going back after graduation. Not sure about the Canucks' stand.


Added on May 30, 2012, 10:10 amGood on AMSA!

http://www.amsa.org.au/press-release/20120...hools-says-amsa
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This is the only information I can dig up - note it's from 2008, so I'm assuming Malaysian numbers have dropped significantly since then (establishment of Monash Sunway, change in course structure from undergraduate to postgraduate and the cessation of JPA sponsorship to Australia). On the other hand, Canadian and American numbers have swelled mainly due to the aforementioned change in program structure and aggressive expansion in international places at UQ, USyd and UniMelb.

Main source countries for international medical students enrolled in Australian undergraduate and graduate entry courses, December 2008*

Source country Numbers enrolled:
Malaysia 1075
Singapore 511
Canada 360
Indonesia 138
United States 79
Botswana 77
Brunei Darussalam 67
Hong Kong SAR 50
Republic of South Korea 42
Norway 27
China 21
Taiwan 19
Japan 15
Sri Lanka 15
India 13
All other 156
Total 2665

*Unpublished analysis by A Langley of Australian international student enrolment data from the Department of Education, Employment and Workplace Relations, Canberra, February 2010.

This post has been edited by Huskies: May 30 2012, 10:46 AM
Huskies
post May 30 2012, 11:10 AM

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QUOTE(podrunner @ May 30 2012, 10:53 AM)
Wow! But I agree that numbers have dropped. There's only around 10 malaysians in Monash Clayton, among the 60+ internationals. Am sure numbers have dropped in other oz med schools as well. And with more awareness of the internship shortage and high fees, numbers may drop significantly. Plus, there are so many med schools in Malaysia now. wink.gif
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You know what I'd really to know - how many of these Malaysians are/were government scholars and how many actually returned to Malaysia? JPA and MARA could have easily thrown away tens, if not hundreds of millions of ringgit for those non-returning scholars - would this not be a gross misappropriation of funds on the scale of the NFC?
Huskies
post May 30 2012, 12:20 PM

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QUOTE(podrunner @ May 30 2012, 11:56 AM)
Are you on FaMa? I think for those under JPA, there is an obligatory amount that needs to be paid. I suppose if that is paid, then that's all there is to it. I'd rather not go into "misappropriation of funds" - that's another whole big topic.
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The only other country on the list of source nations to actually sponsor students to study medicine in Australia is Botswana (and certainly not on the scale that Malaysia did in the past)- and even if the amount is reimbursed in full by the scholar, Malaysia would still have lost the "talent" to Australia - it's a good thing they've finally come to their senses, they've been subsidising Australian medical education for far too long smile.gif

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