You just have to accept that in the big games, that formation will be used whether you like it or not. If it wasn't for that formation, we probably would have lost the game.

AC Milan is crap. Now without Kaka, they're crapper than ever. But Inter does look good, but they're nothing special IMO. Good midfield they may have, but last season couldn't do a thing against us.

Both side misplace passes. It was that kind of a game with both sides looking to cancel each other out. But Giggs was frustrating in the first half at least. He had a lot of good chances to create something but always found a way to mess them up.

We had a lot of final pass in the end, but one way or another, we mess them up at crucial times. And in the first half if it wasn't for Giggs somehow messing them up, we would have a lot.

It's only 5 games into the season, so you would expect them not to be at their best yet in terms of team play.

Arsenal played with more intent of getting the win? What kind of bull is that. We both wanted to win the match... we're the one who got the 2nd goal, and of course they would try their best to get their own 2nd goal so they won't lose. They mess up, just like we did when we should have got the 3rd goal..

Bad tactics? It was perfect to counter Arsenal with their movement. As shown in the past that formation is effective for the big games although it doesn't always look pretty on the eye. What do you suggest then? We play 442 with the same player on the right wing? Same thing..

As for our creativity, this is the midfield for the last few seasons which supported our attacks to great effect. You've been banging on and on about it, but name me again who started in midfield last few seasons? It's not about looking back at the past, but if we are so crap, we wouldn't have managed to score so many goals or even be as successful as we did, with or without Ronaldo.

He always need a few run in the side to get in the groove. Always like that. He's a bit crap and all over the place in his first few games.

Probably took him by surprise. Got his hand to it, but guess it was a bit late. Need to work on his spring and reach. Someone should have close Arshavin though.. Vida was in front of him and probably scared to close him down seeing Arshavin can run rings around him if he rush forward.

I agree, other than Fletcher, the rest didn't show up. Carrick is still in his crappy form. He wasn't bad, but it would have been great if he showed himself more in the game. If I remember last few seasons also the same. He will get into these sort of form for a while, then spring to life. Giggs forgot how to control the ball.. Valencia wasn't effective, and Nani had 2-3 players to beat on his own.

But I thought it was the correct decision to go with 3/5 in the middle. We just have to accept it, for the big games 442 won't always work. 2 CMs agaisnt 3/4 CMs.. that won't be fun to watch, especially against a side like Arsenal who you know would kill us with their movement, pace and passing. We've found our cure for the big games using 433/451, and we use it. 442 to destroy other teams. Just remember last season CL games.. it was 433 against Arsenal where we ran riot.

I disagree about the creativity bit. On form Carrick can provide it. And Anderson have plenty although he's too inconsistent right now. Giggs obviously is the master(aside from last night), along with Scholes, although they are on their last legs.

Maybe, he would have killed them off.. or maybe not seeing his finishing for the last few games. We needed someone able to keep the ball, and Berba is mighty strong at that. He just got off balance, and probably in hindsight should have stop the ball first and then shoot with that one chance he got.

Why can't he just play the way he is and be effective at the same time? Rooney is a freak in that respect.. not many players play like him. If there's something wrong with Berba's attitude, SAF would have thrown a desk at him already and ship him out. Guess he knows more huh seeing as Berba is still here and seemingly first choice alongside Rooney. I really don't see what's the big problem.. so he doesn't run after the defenders as much, but stats would tell he's done far more defensive work/work in general than you would claim.

Last few seasons we use him as our main weapon drawing out his potential in getting goals. Now that he's gone we're seeing the strikers getting more action in front of goal. We may have lose some aspect of play that he brings to the side, but we got a few more tools now too without him there trying to be a striker rather than creating chances.

Could it be just tactics that we allowed them to have the ball and only harry them at certain position/for certain players? If that's the only way to win games, why the hell don't teams do it all the time or every single game? It's call tactics. We might do certain things and Arsenal doesn't, and not do certain stuff which Arsenal might do.. but both sides would look to win the game, or draw depending on circumstances. We want to win this one seeing it was a home game.

I'm not saying it was a perfect game, far from it, but due to both sides canceling each other out, there's bound to be mistakes everywhere, which showed. They made more than us. If Diaby didn't score that own goal, we might have done better with one of our chances late on.. What IFs..

If he's so great, wonder why Portugal is struggling right now? He played his part of course, but you make it sound as if he was the one creating the goals he scored himself which is bull of course. Nobody is belittling his performances for us. He was great, but credit must go to the others too that made that happen.

Like I said, if it was such a big problem as you make it out to be, Berba would have black eyes already throughout last season. But that doesn't happen, and there was no telling off from SAF.

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Added on August 30, 2009, 7:15 pmI don't know about trolling, but just someone with the extreme view of the team he loves. While maybe we sit on the other extreme side of things.

Let's be honest. Our players individually apart from Rooney, and the defenders, is not what you would bracket with the elite status. Plenty of reasons for this. Giggs and Scholes getting old and not as good as before, and Carrick, Fletcher, Valencia and Park a level or two below.. same with Berba(has the ability, need to show it more) and Owen. Then we have Anderson and Nani who is still growing into their role.. + the youngsters..

But it's a team game. And as shown last few seasons we are not as weak as it seems in the midfield/attacking part. Ronaldo helped of course, but who gave him the balls for him to do his damage? It's chicken and egg situation. Without Ronaldo being Ronaldo the last few seasons, we may not have been so effective, but if our midfield is so weak as you make it sound, then he wouldn't be getting the awards and goals he got last few seasons. It goes both ways.

And trying to claim our midfield is weak as shown in the CL final.. we got to the final where everyone else fail apart from Barca. That has to be something. Yes we should do better, and if it means us buying a couple more midfielders to make that happen, then we should. But seems the top midfielders are either unavailable or would cost a bomb since they are already at top clubs.

We just have to make do with what we have and wait till Anderson grow.. he's 21, and Fletcher is 25 right now. Consider how shit Fletcher was a few seasons back regularly.. and Anderson has shown far more consistency and class compared to Fletcher was at the same age..

As it is our midfield isn't so bad. Pair Fletcher with another one or two other midfielders in the big games, and we're set. Him missing however, I suggest pressing the panic button unless Hargreaves gets back pronto.

This post has been edited by Wan: Aug 30 2009, 07:15 PM

www.soccernet.com
www.premierleague.com

They should have them.

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Added on August 30, 2009, 7:21 pmhttp://soccernet.espn.go.com/tables?league=eng.1&cc=4716

There.


Was it a dive or clear foul? Clearly Almunia take him out there..
As for dive.. Rooney didn't need to do much. Almunia already did the work for him, he just need to stay on the course he was heading and it would be a penalty.

This post has been edited by Wan: Aug 30 2009, 07:21 PM

Happens with anyone. We played some good balls to him and he didn't finish them. One things for sure, last two seasons he was told to get on the end of things more rather than be a winger. Can't complain much though seeing how successful we were. Hopefully SAF will work his magic again. Now we're gonna base our play on different player(s).. Roon, Berba, Nani etc..

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Added on August 30, 2009, 7:58 pmGIF? www.redcafe.net

http://www.4thegame.com/matchcentre/premie...ason-table.html
A bit messy though.. kinda hard to read. Saw that kind of table long ago.. but can't remember where.


This post has been edited by Wan: Aug 30 2009, 07:58 PM

Didn't say much though, hardly do anything. Hopefully it's just a case of him being in that crappy form for a few weeks and then play like normal again.

I beg to differ. We have plenty of creative influence in the team. Giggs clearly is one.. but he was shocking that night. Ball got to him, we would always lose it/made the wrong decision/pass not quite there. He can rush things sometimes, which is his frustrating trait.. but generally he's fine there, but that night, god I wanted to kill him. Ando is another one..

Clearly Valencia is not in the groove yet. Showed good play in patches, but other times can be a bit clueless and not involved. Doesn't help when we keep on changing the RB every single game though. SAF, just stick with one! Stick Wes/Fabio there and be done with it.

It was an even contest I thought. They got their fair share of chances, so did we. Maybe our attacking side found more space in the end, but they didn't really found it easy either to breach us.

It was a bad shot by Berba, but he only got what, 15mins? Give him the whole game, he would contribute as much as the others if not more. I find your constant attack on Berba embarrassing for a so called fan.

It was a bad night by Giggsy, our creative outlet in that game.. the others played their part, and Giggsy didn't do his that night. Big deal. One bad game, and we have no creativity? Ando, Scholesy, and Carrick when he's in form do provide them.

I'm not sure the big games is a good judge whether we have the necessary creativity influence in the team or not, because generally big games are tight affairs. Defenders rather than strikers getting the goals, tactics, teams canceling each other out, mistakes etc.

Ronaldo wasn't that great creativity wise. He was never known for that part of his game. It was all about dribbling, movement, and scoring goals. 3-4 seasons with the same squad minus Ronaldo this season and we lack creativity.. if that was the case, we would have gotten one last few seasons, but we still stick with the same midfield almost. We don't have 'the best' there, sure, but we don't lack them.

Two weeks without football after we got a taste of it after so long.. I hate International breaks. Stupid distraction(for me), although it is a must.

He had lots of chances to put our players through.. fail almost every time. That was how frustrating he was.

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Added on August 31, 2009, 9:21 pm
I really thought Evra was off that time seeing the ref blew the whistle that time and the camera focused on Evra who seemed to 'walk away' right away.. thank god for Eboue..

This post has been edited by Wan: Aug 31 2009, 09:21 PM

Found this on the caf.

Rooney conned the keeper not the ref..

Right now it's Fletcher and another one. Everyone else seems to be off form though, maybe apart from Scholes. Don't think Scholes suits these type of games anymore, and in a 3 man midfield he usually doesn't shine that much. Big game, 3 in the middle, we went with Fletcher, Carrick and Giggs.

The place next to Fletcher should be Carrick's.. but he need to find his form first. Lack that bit of creativity compared to other pairings combination, but that would be a balanced midfield. If we need that bit more oomph to open teams up, bring one of Giggs/Scholes for one of them. Ando could fill that up too.. really hope he plays like the end of last season.

GK
Back 4
Fletcher-Carrick-Ando
Park-Ronaldo-Rooney

We won 3-1 at their place. Nobody seem to complain about the formation then. What's different this time? It was just a bad performance for most players, Giggsy especially. On another night, he would have played better, and created chances compared to that night when he always gets into good position to do something with a pass, but always mess them up. That formation I would saw would be crap against the normal/smaller sides, but against the big sides, is almost a must if we don't want to be overrun in midfield. It's just the way it is. Even Arsenal flood their midfield with CMs.. Song, Denilson, Diaby + Eboue..

Nice looking car!
Wonder if more will copy..

You didn't like the 3-1 win? or the other games where we look very good against them in that particular formation? It was just a bad night with players off form.. Giggsy particularly who was our main creative force in that game. He messed up big time. Our only other option for his role that night was Anderson, who's not in great form himself. Last option is of course to go with 442 early if we're desperate. We might be more threatening, but we would leave ourselves open at the back and easy for them to dominate us in the middle with their extra men there.

As for more people scoring them, Nani is pretty good at cutting in inside. That's one of his trait although he's no Ronaldo of course. And Park as good as he is cutting inside, is crap in front of goal. Didn't score that many. Like I said, on another night, it could have turned out into a great night for us. Giggsy had a lot of chances to put our players through, or make great plays, but almost every single time, it didn't came off for him in the first half especially. We may have been lucky, but with the chances we had at the end, Arsenal were lucky as well it didn't turn into a bigger scoreline. It's a fine line between success and failure, and that night we got the better of the deal. That's just the way it is. Nobody is really happy of course not winning comfortably, but big games are usually tight affairs.

Being early on in the season also didn't help matters. And having to change tactics since the departure of Ronaldo and having a new RW in the side, meant that we won't be hitting it off consistently.

I'm still surprised people still have this idea that 442 will just work every single game. We struggled there with Keane and Scholes after 99, and they are the best combo's around that time. We know how much of a monster Keane was, yet we didn't really hit the heights of 99 till last few years where the 433/451 have served us really well in the big games, with 442 for the normal/smaller games although sometimes used in the big games as well. We don't have a Keano now. No team plays with a straight 442 anymore for all type of games. Either they play with extra men/man in the middle or switch between that and some other formation for normal games.

It's not about big signings. It's about getting the right players for the squad. We only needed a third striker which we got in Owen. Although we chased Benzema, it was kind of a special case seeing he was still young for a striker and maybe someone we have to try and get our hands on. Didn't work out(Real factor), and that's the end of it and we turn to Owen. Not a bad striker to have as backups to our main duo.

Obviously Ronaldo leaving left a big hole for us to fill up. But every other winger bar Ribery(Real factor)/Messi wouldn't be able to close that hole completely. Guess from the list we have, we went with Valencia who we identified last year which is not a bad signing at all and proven in the league. Obviously he needs to work on some part of his game, but he's a good winger already, just need to fine tune a few stuff and he'll be a very good winger for us. He didn't have that much chance to cross the ball in all our official games so far, but when does, expect our players to get on the end of them a lot of times. He's fantastic at that.

Anderson will take a while. We just have to hope he plays well more consistently. Anderson 21 years old vs Fletcher 25 years old. It was only last few seasons Fletcher really won over his critics, and my guess is Ando will take the same path too, give or take a year or two. CMs generally get into their own world around the 25 mark except for a few freaks who's special enough to dominate there since they were born almost.

Nani is showing signs of him grown up so far. Valencia look really good in pre-season. We played what, five games now? Too early to judge. Chelsea, we first half, the had the better 2nd half, Birmingham decent start, struggle to break them down, Burnley, wrong time to do the rotation although given the amount of games the players had that time, maybe some needed the rest, Wigan decent first half, great 2nd half.. Arsenal lucky. If there was one winger who SAF rates, is far better than what we have, within his budget, and don't have Real Madrid markings on them, SAF would have gotten them already.

Remember about that 'form is temporary, class is permanent'? Carrick have been very good since he came here. And he does have this crappy spell of form too in each one of the seasons. Scholes look pretty good though alongside Fletcher. He was crappy last season. That's a plus I guess. January will better time to judge this squad and how we'll fare. Just be patient. It will come, as we generally shown over the years. Slow starters. Though one can only hope Rooney would be healthy for most of the season. 5 goals already? Doa2 kan lah dia nih stay healthy time terawih(or for the others in their own way!)/

Plenty of reasons to be worried about. Rooney in great form.. and you know what comes next after that.

True that. But there's no point going to a 442 and shoot ourselves in the foot by letting them dominate the game. That's the only reason I can think of going 433/451, to give ourselves a chance, at least matched them up in midfield in terms of numbers. Proved successful in the past a lot of times against them(last season CL, season before that in the FA Cup and lots of matches way before that), although it's pretty even, won some, lose some, drew some. Hey, even Arsenal go to that route last few seasons in the CL especially, but this season seem to start with a 433 in the league too. One striker, two wingers supporting him, and 3 in midfield.

Don't think Carrick was that bad. He was steady but invisible and didn't offer much. Giggs was involved, and he was really bad. That's why the front 3 was quiet, not as effective. On another night, things could have turn out differently if at least two of those passes/plays Giggsy was gonna play that night that didn't work out actually work out as planned. Only other alternative for that role is Ando who's not in form himself. Could go back to a 442 of course, but we didn't want to take any chances I guess until the end when Arsenal push men forward. Had a lot of chances at the end, but messed them up one by one. Just reflected the type of game we were in.. almost nothing works out for us.

Huh? People need to wake up and face the reality. Almost every team have around 3 CMs in the middle these days. We might get away against the smaller sides, but against teams as good as us, we won't have it all our own way if we just have two in the middle. It might work sometimes(Chelsea last season), but it won't work all the time. CL final where we won against Chelsea. 442 first half.. we were great, but 2nd half, we lost it in the middle. Keano-Scholes.. failed after 99. That's why SAF experimented with 451/4231/433 and getting Veron and whatnot all those years ago. It wasn't pretty, and in normal games outside the big games, it was a pretty boring tactic for us.. didn't work for us like it did for the other teams. But last few seasons we seem to went back with the tried and trusted 442, and only use 433 in the big games which work out quite well.

We could have turn to 442 earlier of course, but guess SAF didn't want to take the chances with the game still in the balance. Seem to be justified seeing we got those two goals, lucky or not. If the 442 was our best option, we would have started that way. But we didn't. And the last few seasons that's been the case for almost all the big games. 433 does work, and it doesn't mean if we go that way, we'll be defensive, unless it's a CL game where the game is not to concede and nick a goal somewhere. The Arsenal game was just a case of players playing badly. Like I said, if Giggs play a gear better that night, and half the plays he messed up actually work like it usually does, it would have turn out differently, and who knows, maybe the game would have been comfortable for us? Park.. guess he got buried somewhere after that Burnley game along with Ando and Carrick, and only Carrick managed to claw his way through the grave.

Maybe it will, maybe they would batter us seeing how in form they were. 433 works for us, against Arsenal especially. We've dominated them before, just as last season showed and games before that. If it ain't broken and all that.. nothing wrong with the tactics/formation, unfortunately that night too many players didn't show up, or just showed crap.

They would only miss one or two transfer window probably if they win the appeal. And 2 years ain't that long. Their players could still keep on playing well till then.

Solskjaer backs Anderson to come good
Nice one Ando! Probably just bored since he didn't get to play much and didn't get call up for Brazil either so he needed that game.

This post has been edited by Wan: Sep 6 2009, 12:31 AM

Berbatov.. scored one penalty, and had three assists.