Just because we are the observer, does not mean we are the reality.

Discuss.

This post has been edited by maknyuus: Jul 2 2009, 02:13 AM

It's not what you observe, it's what you perceive.

If what you perceive about what I perceive is fake, how is that going to influence my perception of what's real?

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Jul 2 2009, 04:50 AM

It's the same as asking if God does exist (or not). The argument is endless until someone from a different realm come and tell us. It doesn't really matter if the world is reality (or not), what matter is how you decide to deal with it.

What is reality? Nobody knows. Me, you or anyone for that matter might not even exist, or we might just be some being harvested as batteries in an alternate reality like in Matrix .

We could use Descartes famous statement "I think, therefore I am." So when I'm thinking I know I'm real, but are the people in front of me real? You might be God himself, everything you see before you is created by yourself.

It is what you can feel through our senses..

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

how so?

Perception is REALITY.

Except, there are MORE than one perception. Hence, there are MORE THAN one REALITY.

This is like the stories of 5 blind men touching and describing an elephant. They are ALL RIGHT partially since they CANNOT see the WHOLE PICTURE.

The problem comes when people DO NOT KNOW that they are BLIND.

So, we need the ability to SEE while being BLIND.

"Red pill or blue pill??"

Dreamer

Reality/Falsehood is the question on whether something is true or untrue. In my opinion, there's only one reality but many perceptions of reality, which might or might not be true.

Just as the five blind men think that they know what the Elephant is by touching it. We know that their versions are not true because we know better than them.

But we ourselves do not know whether we know the elephant fully because we cannot see from a "higher perspective" (our minds can normally only comprehend up to 3D).

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding of reality, as of this moment.

Thinkingfox,

<<We know that their versions are not true >>

To be precise, their version is not untrue. It is a part of the WHOLE PICTURE. It is TRUE as per the part of the OBJECT as they are touching. Ditto, our perception is TRUE as per our senses. But, it is a PARTIAL PICTURE of the TOTAL REALITY.

Now, to see the WHOLE PICTURE is to know what we cannot SENSE and to see what we cannot see.

Is that possible?? Yes, to a certain extend. That can ONLY be done by IMAGINATION.

For example, we cannot see a black hole but we can detect a black hole exists somewhere.

How do you teach the blind to see??

Dreamer

We cant see the black hole itself but we can see the effects of a black hole..

This post has been edited by vivienne85: Jul 3 2009, 09:50 AM

we cant see our brain inside our head, but we know its there....


so hows that?

crack open yr skull and feel your own brain??

human have reality, animals have reality, so do plants. not sure about non "living" things though). btw, what is life? so the question is which reality is the reality? could it be we humans are just like a fish in a pond who thinks he know it all but actually they cant comprehend anything beyond their dimension?. let say if you intefere their world and put a tyre in the pond, a fish do not know its a tyre, but they know its a good place to live and breed (they might call it home instead of tyre). so its like us humans, maybe there is other "creature" or "things" that is around us, but we just unable to perceive because our conciousness are not concious enough. quoting somebody, there is a history when columbus first come to america, the red indians do not realize its a ship coming to them because its beyond their comprehension, hence they dont see or notice them at all. they actually see nothing. i think our brain and conciousness are not powerful as we thought. if we think we can understand everything, we are actually still in the scope of our own conciousness.

reality is what your mind tell what is real ~~~

Okay so what if this isn't reality?

Go out and create some chaos?

People.

Asking about reality is nothing close to perceiving it within your own "first-person" point of view. What discussions can offer are usually composed of "reality is not REALLY reality, illusion is not REALLY illusion", and "everything is not what it seems" kinds of explanation, which ultimately, depends on how you perceive YOUR reality, and how you JUSTIFY it.

Just take this post of mine for example. Although I may have "explained" what "reality" is, how EXACTLY am I going to influence you to perceive reality just the way I perceive it? Are you not, responsible for your OWN reality and how you JUSTIFY it YOURSELF?

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Jul 3 2009, 07:33 PM

Can't agree with that. Perception is perception, reality is reality. Reality is what doesn't go away even if you don't believe in it.

But because we KNOW it's there, therefore we ended up BELIEVING in it anyway, don't we?

How, and when can one then, chooses not to believe in it?

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Jul 3 2009, 10:20 PM

Yes of course.



You can choose not to believe in it, but your belief does not alter the fact. If you stand in the rain and choose to believe that it is not raning, you still get wet. It's not like you don't get wet if you choose to believe that it's not raining.

Is partial truth, true or false? If I tell a partial truth in court, what would they say about my statement? If found out, would they say I testified the partial truth? Or would they say I lied?

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jul 4 2009, 07:59 PM

Thinkingfox,

You can ONLY lie when you KNOW the truth.

If you do not know the TRUTH, you CANNOT TELL THE TRUTH.

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between

A) Lying.

B) Not telling the truth.

For example, if you are COLOR BLIND, everything is GRAY. You said that you see a GRAY DOG. But, the dog is actually a YELLOW DOG. So,

1) You are NOT TELLING THE TRUITH.

But,

2) You are NOT lying.

Most of US are NOT capable of knowing what we do not know. We are like color blind people trying to figure what the actual color of a gray dog is. We know that it is NOT gray as we see it when we know that we are color blind. But, we DO NOT KNOW what the real color is.

Dreamer

This post has been edited by dreamer101: Jul 4 2009, 09:50 PM

For me, reality is what we believe.
I believe in the creator.

"Energy can't be created or destroyed. It can only change forms."

But how can I choose not believe in it even after KNOWING that it's ACTUALLY there?

Nope, we live in illusion. What we see, what we hear, remember it is just a brain intepretation, but what lies in front of us could be a formation of number like movie matirx or some wave energy. It is brain intepretation that made us believe that we see a girafe, we see elephatant but is it all are intepretation of the brain.

Interestingly, even when we sleep n dream, we able to to see, smell or hear something even there are no STIMULUS!!! That can be an evident that it is our brain that intepret it. Because our brain intepret as such n we have live like that since we are young, we were indoctrined by the brain that is there is cause n effect. We believe that we eat apple, it tastes sweet, we believe we cant walk on water. We believe that if we have sex we would happy, all this are intepretation of brain.

But in reality, we have been fooled what the brain tells us. Because the reason is we have being trained to believe so. We have been train or being indoctrined since we are child that fire feels hot, ice feels cool. In other word, we have been attached to what we want to believe , to believe the the nature's rule or what that have been programmed inside our brain.

In order to free from this program, we need to train ourself not to relied on the program. But how would we free from this program when we depends on its too much? Its not suprisingly why religion do somehow forbid human from excessive pleasure or behavior that based on "nafsu". Because such pleasure or behaviour that based on "nafsu" made us relied more on the programe. In other hand, some human insteadd of chossing the moderate life of believer, they choose an extremism way in order hope to see the reality. They isolate themselves from people, fasting almost every day, n do lot of meditation, reason for hoping that he wont relied on this programe, instead he hopes that through his training, he will relied on others beside the programme that being implanted. In other word, the reality is once u freed from the programme, that is the real reality

not bad not nad...while what you say is very true here, its only true at the perception level like the way you say Perception is REALITY, I'm sorry to tell you that the rock will still fall to the ground due to gravity even if we don't exist and hence in such a case our perception don't exist as well and thus Perception is REALITY is false... my point is, perception does not equate reality as many ppl believe...its another perception that perception is equal to reality which is stupidly false...

reality does not change regardless what perception we have of our reality...

for the TS, reality is what reality is, it just is, reality does not equal physics,

physics comes from the attempt of human to model and represent reality using math and at this point in time advanced quantum physics is quite a mess...

This post has been edited by -҉-: Jul 5 2009, 07:43 PM

Believing at least gives us a hope. A world without believer would be darn boring and lifeless. Until we crack 99% of our brain function, we almost achieving the super intelligence level. Of course by then, we are work more on our brain rather than our body.

What you say, I do not doubt. I was using that example assuming that I give the partial truth on purpose, for the reason of shading the truth.

But reality is not only limited to what we know or what we can perceive, right? That would be a personal perception of reality. Reality stays the same whether or not we can perceive or understand it.

I agree with you that sometimes (or maybe always, I admit I do not know the frequency of validity. But I know it is valid) we are like color blind people trying to figure what the actual color of a gray dog is.

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jul 5 2009, 10:20 PM

If everything is an interpretation of the brain, how did you come to interpret that life is an illusion instead of reality, and reality instead of illusion?

Isn't the word "illusion" simply another interpretation, which in fact not be an illusion, or simply the word "illusion" itself to describe your reality is ALSO an illusion?

Like I mentioned from my previous post, you know reality by JUSTIFYING it.

How can there be any meaning in the memory of such a being? What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion.
—Sephiroth

To me god is all in your mind its merely guidance for each religion.

ah another argumentum ad infinitum.

the perception of the reality is often flawed and dependent on many variables i.e education, culture. and when our perception changes, we believe the reality changes as well.

there is 2 reality. one that is happening and the other is what we think/fed/taught is happening.

Isn't all that your perception?

Hence Perception = Reality?

How can the thing that is not happening be reality?

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jul 12 2009, 08:25 PM

That's only because such happenings are not subjected to your perceptions yet. If I tell you the Great Wall of China is the metres long and such, showing you the Wikipedia and all sources of information available around the world, will you ACTUALLY believe them...until you've actually measured the Great Wall by yourself?

This post has been edited by Deadlocks: Jul 12 2009, 10:38 PM

REALITY-U cant enlighten other ppl unless u r the enlighted 1
For me,reality is wat u believe dats y diff ppl define diff reality

quote in my siggy

it can. faith.

for one, religion.

but what they are merely displaying is living what they think is reality.

Reality is a common perception of certain things.

Commonly, we believe what we can see as real. What we touch is real.

But I have always thought, what if, the balls we see are spherical, but some alien species perceives it as squarish.

If you believe it is real, then is reality.

Some choose to believe after they see or experience it.
Some choose to believe it by faith.

Is all in your mind. Some keep on reassuring themselves is real... after a few times, is REALLY REAL to them afterward. The power of the mind.

Some choose to live in illusion. So called for betterment. Away fro problem temporary. Live in their own fantasy coz reality is too cruel. Is it a good thing?

Its not time for human to know so much yet.. that is y we use only a very little portion of our brain.. Reality or not.. The crave to think or find reality itself by isolating yourself and alienated others.. well, it won't help. If you are lucky, you will get enlighten.. If you are not.. then you may get crazy. We had been relying too much on words.

What is truth or reality anyway? Why do you 'think' that this word itself make sense or mean anything?

Just accept whatever perception we have now and don't 'think' too much.. Give yourself more space in terms on the frequency of thoughts.. Perhaps you may realise something that can sooth your emotion or enlighten you bit and your emotion will not be affected by the environment easily.

This post has been edited by lilko: Jul 24 2009, 02:34 AM

Watch "The Matrix" and you will know the reality of this world- how the government works and turn people into servants.

But this is way too superfluous for a man of knowledge.

In this world, there are KNOWN, UNKNOWN AND UNKNOWABLE.
Uknown becomes known at a given time, but unknowable is something unspeakable, unthinkable and untouchable.
Unknown is something superfluous for the average men but it is something that a man of knowledge ventures into.

Quotes of Don Juan Matus
"Our world is only one in a cluster of consecutive worlds, arranged like the layers of an onion. Even though we have been energetically conditioned to perceive solely our world, we still have the capability of entering into those other realms, which are as real, unique, absolute, and engulfing as our own world is.

For us to perceive those other realms, not only do we have to covet them but we need to have sufficient energy to seize them. Their existence is constant and independent of our awareness, but their inaccessibility is entirely a consequence of our energetic conditioning. In other words, simply and solely because of that conditioning, we are compelled to assume that the world of daily life is the one and only possible world.

Believing that our energetic conditioning is correctable, sorcerers of ancient times developed a set of practices designed to recondition our energetic capabilities to perceive. They called this set of practices the art of dreaming . It's the gateway to infinity.

Through dreaming we can perceive other worlds, which we can certainly describe, but we can't describe what makes us perceive them. Yet we can feel how dreaming opens up those other realms. Dreaming seems to be a sensation--a process in our bodies, an awareness in our minds.

Dreaming instruction is divided into two parts. One is about dreaming procedures, the other about the purely abstract explanations of these procedures: an interplay between enticing one's intellectual curiosity with the abstract principles of dreaming and guiding one to seek an outlet in its practices."

---

Added on July 27, 2009, 7:31 pmThe truth is that we , human beings, are an awareness. We are luminous beings made by hundred thousands of light filaments. What we think and what we do at the moment depend on the position of our assemblage point.

THE CATALYST OF POWER - THE ASSEMBLAGE POINT OF MAN by Jon Whale. Ph.D.
http://www.whalemedical.com/ap1.html

[Don Juan is what he calls a Man of Knowledge. The most knowledgeable mystic available in writing through the work of Carlos Castaneda. Through him the The Assemblage Point was revealed to the world.] - John

"Everything you think and everything you feel depends on the position of the Assemblage Point."--Don Juan

[There are three Human Assemblage Points. The Static Assemblage Point (SAP), the Moving Assemblage Point (MAP) and the Great Light Assemblage Point (GLAP). The Stationary Assemblage Point (SAP) is the focal point of the energy body. It should be in (or near) the centre of the chest but any stress, be it emotional traumas, violence, intimidation, giving birth, accidents, as well as drug use (illegal and legal), can shift it off centre and it can even move into organs like the liver and heart. Each position around the centre, be it left, right, up or down produces a certain feeling and thinking associated with that position see. It can be likened to tuning a radio, but instead of getting a poor reception you get a poor or 'off-centre' feeling and thinking. This is where the saying 'centred' comes from. It can be shifted back to centre with a crystal or some people can move it back with their will. This validates the teachings in Carlos Castaneda's books. Over 10 years ago Harley Swiftdeer Reagan, who was Don Genaro's apprentice, taught Jon Whale how to shift the SAP. To have your assemblage point position checked, and shifted if needed contact the webmaster (UK) The webmaster knows two people personally who were cured of depression in two minutes by having their SAP position corrected, both were due to emotional trauma. See how the Allopaths suppress non-allopathic medicine---they deleted the Assemblage Point page on Wikipedia. What is termed 'The Shaman's Blow' is another type of shift that moves you into Satori.] - John



This post has been edited by darksider: Jul 27 2009, 07:32 PM

inb4trolledforsayingpseudoscienceandphilosophyinfection

anyone have anything physics-related?

I agree with kuroman84. If u study the human biology, we're just machines, in a way that, some input is received, processed, and presented in our minds.

Take the human eye for example. In order to see an object, light (EM waves) must bounce off the surface of that object and enter the eyes. The next part I'm not sure of the details but basically, the light waves will probably excite some receptors inside the eye, and from there EM signals will be converted to electrical pulses start to travel into the nervous system. (neurotransmitters, etc.)

The interesting part, is that, once the electrical pulses reach brain, it has to be processed first by the brain, meaning raw information alone would be meaningless to the brain. So the brain processes it, and only after that we can "perceived" an image.

With all that components and steps and different levels of reception and processing, do u think our sight system is trustworthy enough?

If we were to 'kacau' the neurotransmitters a bit with... I don't know, meth maybe, or even LSD, do u still think that seeing is believing? And this is not considering how normal hormones could affect it too.

But chemicals aside, even the basic structure of our sight system alone makes the credibility of the things of we see everyday questionable. There are so many loopholes.

Perception =/= Reality

and... thats why i dont believe in ghosts.

Whether I perceive it is one thing and whether it really happened is another, no?

To me, reality is what actually happened.

It does not matter whether or not I know, understand, perceive etc.

What I understand is my perception of reality, not necessarily reality.

If what I understand is correct, then my perception is reality

If what I understand is wrong, then my perception is not reality

---

Added on July 31, 2009, 12:10 amWhether or not God exist, we cannot scientifically proof yet.

Because if He exist, God's existence is reality.

If He does not exist, God's existence is not reality.

If it didn't happen (let's say if God doesn't exist), the reality will be that He doesn't exist no matter what humans believe.

As such, in my opinion, there's only 1 reality.

This post has been edited by Thinkingfox: Jul 31 2009, 12:21 AM

But what if your senses fail you? It is the same concept as a color blind man, if nobody ever told him that the world is colorful, what he sees in black and white is the reality. What's more, even if someone were to tell him that the world is colorful, he would never be able to picture what it is like?

Come to think of it, what we see in this color of the world may not be real even. Maybe seeing in colorful is a defect itself?

We learned from Newtonian Physics concerning *absolute* space and time where they were absolute irregardless of who, where, when (frame of reference) to an object we observe and percieve, that **was** the Reality during the time.

We now learned that space and time is relative to the observer, where you and I can observe an event or an object differently pending on our motions relative to the object under observation (Relativity discovered by Einstein), this **is** the Reality now which have been proven correct.

Is the event you observed/perceived the same with mine?

If both of our opinion are different, can you say you are right and I am wrong?

Or both or us could be right although we observed/perceived thing differently?

Is your reality need to be my reality?

From non science point of view, reality is a condition and people who lack creativity struggle in this living condition but creativity is often unrealistic without analytic knowledge.

Science fiction is a combination of science plus creativity, I only found out when I learn to use 3D program to create art.

Just a video explaining reality from a different yet true perspective.

This post has been edited by kenyir_85: Aug 17 2009, 07:55 PM