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Serious Diamonds are forever, The most romantic stones

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TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 04:50 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 04:41 PM)
it's ok, i saw that  wink.gif
well, after all, i did have a 'debate' with you once on another thread last time also arguing about diamonds being a bad investment (if thinking that buying, holding, and selling was a good idea)

nothing personal, we are all just sharing our thoughts here. We do like intellectual m*sturb*ti*n sometimes.  icon_rolleyes.gif
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Then again as I've mention in page one, but someone (not refering to you) too blind to read.
Big diamond is indeed a good investment, esp those above 100k, thats why you see all the rich and famous going to auction house buying big diamonds. The value appreciates very fast.

Just that you dun hope anything when you buy 2 - 3k diamond


TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 05:28 PM

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QUOTE(wlcling @ Apr 28 2009, 05:00 PM)
anyway, some info on wikipedia on diamonds as an investment. Just a read for people interested...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamonds_as_an_investment

Also an interesting point taken from Wiki for those buying diamonds:-
There are considerable price shifts near the edges of the size bands, so a 0.49 carats (98 mg) stone may list at $5,500 per carat = $2,695, while a 0.50 carats (100 mg) stone of similar quality lists at $7,500 per carat = $3,750.

These are called the magic numbers when choosing carat size. While cost may be exponential to the carat size, there is a big price jump at certain magic numbers. They are:- 0.3ct, 0.5ct, 0.7ct, and 1ct, 2ct, and so on. Getting a 0.49ct diamond compared to a 0.5ct diamond will be cheaper, although the size different is probably ignorable. Unfortunately these nicely sized stones are quite hard to come by, as most cutters prefer to sacrifice some cut quality in order to have the diamond weighing at these magic numbers.

Yes, diamond hunting can be tiring but rewarding...  biggrin.gif
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Yes fully agree, this is how the pricing works, coz people would rather answer I've a 1 carat stone instead of I've a 0.99cts on my finger, but then they can always lie tongue.gif but thats besides the point.


Added on April 28, 2009, 5:31 pm
QUOTE(moorish @ Apr 28 2009, 05:28 PM)
Yes fully agree, this is how the pricing works, coz people would rather answer I've a 1 carat stone instead of I've a 0.99cts on my finger, but then they can always lie tongue.gif  but thats besides the point.
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But for earrings its good to get 0.49, you really saves a lot.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 05:31 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 05:44 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 05:35 PM)
My dear "buddy", at which point did I say that I didnt care? vmad.gif
Then again I never said that I do.  rolleyes.gif

I merely highlighted the point that there are many other unscruplous business and trades out there. Not just the diamond trade which you take so personally. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, it is a sad predicament of what is happening in the diamond trade. But that is not the only trade that has cause war and abused human rights. What about all the sweat shops in indochina? You going to stop wearing clothes?

You are just making a very personal view on the matter. Think about it. You talk about De Beers financing the slave trade in Africa. Well they merely pay for services provided.

-They want diamonds.
-Some ppl can get it for them.
-They pay.

In what circumstances these ppl choose to produce that diamond, I dont think that the ppl at De Beers really care. They just want the diamonds. Simply supply and demand. So if you think about it, De Beers only want the diamonds. It is the ppl in Africa that CHOOSES to kill/rape/enslave their OWN ppl for money.

So my dear "buddy", who is at wrong here? De Beers for willing to pay a lot of money for something seemingly worthless? or the warlords in Africa killing and enslaving their OWN ppl to get money? So who is actually really cutting off the breast of Africa?

So you are the ppl who feel the need to impose their views on to other ppl. Take a neutral view and see who is really doing all the butchering?
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Another thing, diamond doesnt only come from africa they're also major supplies in canada, australia, russia and I think india too. But conflict diamond comprises of a very small percentage only. Which is it we will never know.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 28 2009, 05:44 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 06:17 PM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 06:00 PM)
Silverhawk, there is no point continuing to flame moorish. She has a very simplistic view of investment. She is not a sophiscated investor. She like many out there views investment as something that apprciate in price through time. Just like how everyone thinks that buying a house is investment without taking into account the cost of interest, maintainence, inflation, taxes, etc (YES, many of you out there buying houses as an investment is actually buying a liability brows.gif )

So to her something that she bought a long time ago, now cost more means she make money, means good. Hence her views on diamonds as a good investment. It is just a matter of preference. Some ppl buy art as an investment, others collect comics/coins/stamps as investment.

No point you trying to force your views down her throat. The fact remains that diamond do appreciate in price(regardless of who is controlling/playing the market) makes it an investment. Not a good one. Nor a very profitable one, but a form of investment nonetheless.
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thanks bishop
TSmoorish
post Apr 28 2009, 11:55 PM

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QUOTE(Dickson Poon @ Apr 28 2009, 08:02 PM)
Wow Bishop, how far will you bend over to justify and defend Moorish's ignorant talk?

That IS what you're saying, isn't it? That she doesn't know what she's talking about? That although it doesn't make much sense and cannot be called an investment by ANY real standard, to her "simple" ways of thinking it does, and thus she can make that misrepresentation without being called out on it?

And oh my gosh, look, Silverhawk is trying to FORCE his views down her throat?
Last I looked, only WORMS twisted and turned themselves around like that.
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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 28 2009, 08:29 PM)
The issue is that you are judging your standards against hers. By her standards that much appreciation is a good investment. That is her standard. You are putting your standards against hers. Many are happy with a proton, others will never drive anything less than a BMW. Are you to say that the latter is wrong. No. It is just a matter of different standards or reference point if you must.

As for the WORMS statement. It is not twisting. It is a fact. Again you are measuring against your yardstick. Good for her is obviously not good enough for you. What is an investment but appreciation in value. No one say it must be of significant appreciation.


Added on April 28, 2009, 8:44 pm
Lets put it in her methodology of thinking.

I like shinny stones = GOOD
Shinny stones appreciate in price = INVESTMENT

therefore GOOD INVESTMENT.

Obviously this method of investment is not up to both your standards then let her be happy in her reality. We are not here to judge her sense of value. She obviously put a lot of it in shinny stones but then you must remember that that is her reality/life.

I am not supporting or defending moorish. I just believe that everyone has their values and priority in different things. Some in money, some in relationship, some in god, and there are some in little shinny stones. We are not here to impose our values to other ppl. There is really no point in agrueing on this, it would be like argueing that my god is better than your god.
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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 28 2009, 08:47 PM)
Personal preference and standards should not come into play in education. Its not about measuring one standard with another, that is pointless. Its about providing objective information to people. Just because she thinks its an investment, doesn't mean she has the right to say its an investment. Furthermore, it isn't right for her to tout such numbers without calculating the actual ROI properly. Such information is inaccurate and misleading.

If its just between me and moorish, I wouldn't be doing this, there's no point. However many more are going to read this topic to learn about diamonds, and I believe people should know more about diamonds than just choosing what to buy. They should know what it is they're buying, both good and bad. What they choice they make or what they learn from this is entirely up to them. At least, we provided information in an objective manner.

Let me stress it again, the diamond education moorish is giving, is like teaching people how to have sex and achieve great orgasms, but totally missing the information on responsibility and STDs. Education isn't just only about the good stuff.
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lets restart this whole thing...Silver hawk you keep saying I'm wrong bla bla, diamond is a bad investment. To me it is a damn good investment as compared to my other luxury item which I can only sell half the price should I need money, hence the example of my hubbys CD player. I get to wear it for so many years (, and pass it to my son/daughter in future, they continue to wear it) and shall the need arises we can still sell it yes in my terms 10X the price we bought it 40 years later.

I love diamonds, where else my hubby never argues about this with me because his toys all loses money...
buy motorbike then endless upgrading in shop 1 year later sell at lost,
fish la everyday bags of stuff from fish shop and when fish finally grows up, he gives it away doh.gif ,
HIFI also same case never finish upgrading every single time he sell off at 50% loses and spend another 150% to buy back the same part,
cameras same case, every new models come out must change and sell off at 50% loses and spend another 150% to buy back the same thing...

all his luxury items loses money!!! so to him when I play diamond he is happy, better than my LV or bottega bags or handphones.
He says at least all these he buys for me can be passed down to our kids.

So in which part do you disagree? I'm coming from the sense of luxury item, maybe you're coming from a sense of full time income ...
if full time income I also told you last time when we were dealing with wholesale diamond we dun make much money, we made on other colored stones. Maybe my hubby was too honest thats why he dun make money on diamonds where else people are making tons of profits.

That is also why you dun see a single shop selling only loose diamonds, but you do see many shops selling loose colored stones. Those who sell diamonds need to couple with set jewellery to cover back, anyway thats besides the point.

ok your turn
TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 01:21 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 29 2009, 12:38 AM)
Ok, lets get one thing clear. Whatever we talk about, don't take it personally. The information we exchange isn't about you. Its about educating the people who will be reading this topic. Keep this goal in mind, and my points should become more clear to you. Stop being so darn defensive.

It doesn't matter which side we're coming from. You're making a claim that diamonds are a good investment. You may have that opinion, but others may not. People who read this are going to think that since you know more, what you say is right. They would also think its a good investment, and you back that up by saying that a diamond has been shown to be worth 10x more than its initial value 40 years after sale. Even after I proved to you that your claim of a 1000% ROI is false and its ROI is only about 70%, you still stick to such figures.

If your feeble mind isn't sharp enough to grasp it. I disagree with you on diamonds being a good investment. Not because I disagree with you its perceived value, but because you are giving biased, inaccurate and dishonest information. Be honest, impartial and objective when you give out your information. I don't see why you have to jack up all the numbers to make it look better than it actually is.

Now with that out of the way. I still want to know about the resale market for diamonds. Please provide as much information as you can, like where to typically get good prices, and what prices can people expect compared to wholesale prices, how to not get cheated or any other information that would help people maximise their earnings when selling off their diamonds.
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The red part...if you still wanna continue with personal attack I will put you back in ignore list.

if you stay calm and read the first page someone asked if buying diamonds is good investment, I did mention only above 5 carats top quality stones that you can invest in, because naturally mine large stone is priceless, the price do not appear in rapaport. That was the initial investment part. A lot of rich and famous people do invest in diamonds not to wear but to keep, but these are not normal diamonds, these are items on auctions and above 100Ks.

If you're talking about smaller stones for proposal ring, then dun get those below 0.50 cts, I dun really witness any appreciate or whatever you call it, my terms is increase in price over the years kept. Hence I advise people if you wan a proposal ring and also investment in mind, get at least a 0.50 cts stone.

And some people dun care about the value, they just wan a diamond and these people can buy any size they like.

If you trace back I've edi mention all these, just that words started flying around and all the confusion.

So what do you mean buy for investment? as professionally?
This thread is about buying your diamond for proposal ring to your wife...if its about investment then it should be in Finance and business.

About when to buy...of coz when the market is slow like right now, some will sell at cost price because they cannot afford to service loans or they would liquid the cash to stock up on gold jewellery that moves faster.

About cheated and so on...how do I know? if the shop really wan to con you they're plenty of ways to do it, but I can assure you most reputable big shops are dead honest.

Start with buying diamonds with cert, your serial number is laser print to your diamond this is the safest way to not get conned. This is where Debeer helps to standardize and you get what you paid for. Unlike other gems.

ask to see latest rapaport price so the shop dun simply pluck market price out of thin air....Eh infact I edi mention all these in earlier pages, go back and read la. Some shops I wont name la would get in trouble, they dun show rapaport prices, and these people who buy paid very high price for the stones, then maybe years later they try to sell and they lose money they start telling people dun buy diamonds.

Another thing I rber now...some stones you get better discount, some like my earrings when I wanted to buy, was an E color 0.50 matching pairs meaning the size and everything else is very similar, you get very vert little discount because quite difficult to get matching pairs. But price so expensive, it was somewhere 12k if rber correctly, lucky hubby got plenty of contacts and settle with a 0.49 matching pairs this is something very rare to come by and price is 7.5K much much cheaper than the 0.50 cts pairs. The shop was cash jam and sold at cost price or maybe less than 5% profit.

So you really need to shop, but before this you need to really understand diamonds, among the most crucial thing is the cutting!!!

So to summarize my investment part I've edi mention so many times, and btw I dun over inflate prices I mention here, the 400 and sold at 4000 is really what it is, there is another case even better, a fren of my mom bought a red diamond back in the 70s at myammar for I think 1k, she sold that pc at 2001, my boss help to transact, 50K but this is red diamond la very rare to come by.

And to be fair...I also come across plenty of people kena conned, they bought non certify 1 ctc stone back in the 80s for 25k, which can only sell back at 15k in year 2000, was a H color but I something.

So I've seen those that are not conned made money (in my terms) and those who kena con lose money. But nowadays people rarely buy big uncertified stones.

So back to topic in which part do you think diamond make poor investment for your wifes proposal ring?







TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 29 2009, 04:15 AM)
I believe the confusion is in the term "investment".
"Investing is the active redirecting resources from being consumed today so that they may create benefits in the future; the use of assets to earn income or profit."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment#cite_note-1

But when you say investing in CD players and motorcycles, then i think you have confused everyone on the term investment. Thoose are doodads. Those so called investments are self gratification in nature and have no inherit value other than to the initial purchaser. The word "investment" used in the purchase of those luxury items are used very loosely. It is just post justification of spending large sums of money.

So if you are comparing doodads as a means of investment with diamond, I see why you would say that it is a "damn good investment", because those other things are not what we would call investments. They are called spending money.  rolleyes.gif

So Silverhawk, like i said in my earlier post, she has a simplistic interpretation of the term investment. So when you talk in terms of ROI, it is not relavant as she compares her diamonds to HiFi's and motorcycles as means of investment. In that sense it is really damn good.  thumbup.gif
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Sorry bishop you lost me there a bit too, I'm too used to hearing people say I invest in house, (but I know the real money is you invest in shops)
I invest all my time and money in bonsai plants thats what my in laws would say.

And about motorcycles, no we all know that is not investment coz the day he takes the key we know it is losing money, what my hubby says is better I play diamonds than spending on LV, because he thinks buying diamond there is at least value in future. So that was my investment sense.


QUOTE(LittleGhost @ Apr 29 2009, 09:29 AM)
The issue is with she's still grasping her ego and not keen to learn/admit her own faults when it's obvious people are proving her wrong with the proper facts.

If you want to educate people, at least be humble enough to accept and learn your own mistakes.
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If you want to learn trade secrets from people at least know how to be humble and ask, its not like I"m desperate to preach, I'm only here to help those who are interested to buy diamonds for their future wife to be.
TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 10:16 AM

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QUOTE(nottyKitty @ Apr 29 2009, 09:45 AM)
moorish, jz ignore those that don't know how to value diamonds...

its useless trying to tell them. they will always think they are right.
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QUOTE(Bishop @ Apr 29 2009, 10:02 AM)
You have confused everyone when you use the term investment rclxub.gif . Most ppl understand it as defined in my previous post.

An underlying point in that post that I left out is that most, if not all, of those assets–the HDTV’s, the luxury cars, the stereo systems, the swimming pools–are horrible investments.  They aren’t “assets” at all.  Instead, they are fake “assets.”  Better yet, they are liabilities.  (Robert Kiyosaki likes to call them “doodads.”)
http://flimjo.com/fake-assets-doodads-expe...epleting-items/

That is why the others are questioning you on the returns (ROI) when you say investment. Just clarifying your point of reference to them.  rolleyes.gif

I think the others will understand your stand now.  whistling.gif
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ok thanks for the clarifications...


TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 10:30 AM

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[quote=kenji1903,Apr 29 2009, 10:22 AM]
the term investment is too general... Kiyosaki calls the house you are staying a liability even though one have fully paid it... why? because you still need to pay for maintenance... but banks/accountants calls any property an asset, regardless if its making/loosing money...

so Moorish's "investment" term is really her point of view... and there's no right or wrong about it...

this is a forum and some readers might have their own definition of investment... so don't get do heated up, after all, we're all here to have fun and share thoughts, right? smile.gif

also... something you bought 10 years ago for a low price and able to sell for a higher price now does not necessarily mean you made money...
e.g. a house you bought 100k 10 years ago and sell at 300k does not mean you made 200k... the current market price for a house is already 300k so, you practically didn't make anything... you are considered making money if the current market price for the house is 250k because you still have extra cash after buying the new house... that's my personal definition... chill smile.gif
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[/quote]

Thanks kenji..

Since the investing part keeps spining in me...so decide to google a bit about investment in diamond, sounds very similar to what I'v learn from the industry, but anyway just for you all to digest:

http://www.nuwireinvestor.com/articles/inv...ment-51499.aspx

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



Added on April 29, 2009, 10:37 am[quote=LittleGhost,Apr 29 2009, 10:28 AM]
it's claiming you can earn 10x while the real truth is that you arent that isnt right.
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[/quote]

I think I mention you can sell 10X the price you bought right?
And seriously do you expect an expert financial officer to sell diamonds?
If you think it isnt worth the money or it is not worth an investment...that is you
to me it is very good.

We had just went thru this arguement 2 days ago, pls reread instead of argueing the same thing here all over again.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 29 2009, 10:39 AM
TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 11:41 AM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 29 2009, 11:09 AM)
That's true tongue.gif
But I can put a sign next to the horse telling people that the horse doesn't drink tongue.gif
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you can call me sturborn.... which I am, my hubby prefers using the terms tiuman.

I think this thread is irrelevent, too many expert in here already, nothing I want to share further. Tot of helping but if you insist I'm dishonest as if I'm trying to sell you something than I'll stop.

I really dun wan to carry the tag like a con woman, I'm edi sticking my neck out with my face plastered in here which in case goldsmith who knows me see what I'm saying would edi curse me for telling so many things.

This post has been edited by moorish: Apr 29 2009, 12:07 PM
TSmoorish
post Apr 29 2009, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(silverhawk @ Apr 29 2009, 12:13 PM)
Your help is much appreciated, don't doubt that. Its just not fair to provide information that will help a sale, but doesn't really help a buyer to make an informed decision. The fact that you're afraid that merchants are going to curse you for revealing so much is proof that there's a certain level of dishonesty in the market. If you're afraid that your face is shown and people might recognise you... you can always create a dupe to provide the information.

P.S. - I'm probably just as stubborn as you laugh.gif
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I've stated way way earlier they;re bad shops and they're good ones...how to create dupes?

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