The illusion is because the standards don't really matter to most consumers. How many people do you think buy diamonds actually know about all this? Are the standards really that important for the consumer? You said it yourself, it inspires confidence in the buyers but that doesn't change the fact that you're being "conned". The standards benefit the merchants a lot more than it does the consumer, as it allows them to better control prices.

Is there a standard pricing for art? How does one value an art piece to be a certain or higher than another? There is no real standard is there? Do you see what I mean by the standard being an illusion? Remember you said it yourself earlier, the value is what people think it is, a beautiful gemstone will fetch a good price regardless, and if you are comfortable with the price you got it and sell it at, then all is well no?

A wedding ring is an investment doesn't make much sense. Your ROI is rather pathetic, the risk factors are high and in times of emergency you might not even sell it at a value close to its current market value! If you want to get a gemstone as an investment, it would make sense to get the stone and keep it somewhere safe with the proper environment, not carried around on a finger.

This is why I say we're coming from different perspectives. I believe the stones on your ring are more symbolic than an investment. If you want to invest your money, there are much better options available.
Despite the "disagreements" I have with you, I am learning quite a lot from this thread I think it would be better if you compiled all you know into the 1st post or something. Something like a proper guide of what to look for when buying/selling diamonds. Tips on how not to get conned, where to get the best deals and so-on.

I know how beautiful diamonds can be, I put "conned" in quotes for a reason. I don't actually mean people are intentionally cheating you, but the industry as a whole, is. Don't think of it as a monopoly, think of it as an oligopoly. They benefit from selling it high, standards will allow them to better set pricing ranges. This is common in any business where demand is sufficiently high for product ranges to be made.

Did you miss the point where I said gemstones don't make a good investment? You entirely miss the point I was trying to make on the standards being an illusion.

40 years for an increase of value of 10x? Did you take into consideration the inflation rates? RM400 40 years ago is very different to RM400 now. Did you really make money from this investment? The mathematics to calculate your investments and its returns is not such a simple formula of comparing price then and price now.

It may be worth much more, but I won't get it for investment sake. Thinking like that IMO is just fooling yourself into justifying the cost. I have my own ideas for a ring, it may or may not include diamonds, but one thing for sure, its going to be incredibly unique and meaningful.

What were people using prior to De Beer's marketing campaign hmm? Think about it
Is your standard of romance just the purchase of a diamond or the amount of thought went into getting something for you?
And I think you should understand what I'm saying about the illusion of standards.
I'm not saying its better or worse investment stone, just that it doesn't make much sense as an investment. Boleh faham tak?
Yeap, poor ROI. As I said, your "10x return" may not really be a 10x return. You have to take inflation into account as well. People who buy rolex aren't really getting it as an "investment" per se, to afford something like that they would have proper investments elsewhere.

If you really believe diamonds to be a good investment, why aren't you stockpiling in diamonds? If you spend 40k on diamonds now, and in 40 years it becomes 10x the value, you'll get back 360k. That would be pretty useful for your children/grandchildren don't you think?
Diamonds are beautiful, I'm not criticising diamonds in themselves, but how the industry is run together with the public perception of diamonds. Its waaaaay overrated.
See what I mean by the standards being an illusion? People will spend for what they want, as long as they are happy with the price, does it matter? If you got a diamond that looks good to you, would the grade really matter to you? Would you feel bad that this great looking diamond is actually synthetic and actually only cost 300 instead of 3000 (pulling figures out of thin air).

So in the end, the standards don't matter that much to the consumers, its really just to brag/show off.
Happy, but why? Because everyone has one? Just to show off? Sorry, but I think that is incredibly shallow. This is my contention with the perception of diamonds. The chase of status and ego, completely forgetting the essence of romance.

Education isn't only about the good stuff eh? The information you're sharing is good, but I believe people have the right to know about the diamond industry's history as well. That's the only reason I've been arguing with you Otherwise its just like teaching people about sex but skipping the part on STDs

P.S. - Keeping a fish might make more sense than a Dog depending on what you plan to do with the pet

After some thought, I think I'm not going to let this comment slide. You come from a sales background no doubt, so you're used to the idea of selling your product. Perhaps this bias has become sub-conscious to you even though you've left the industry. So I'm going to hit you with several questions regarding the inherent value of diamonds as well its investment value (a point you keep bringing up so it must carry some weight). Since you were in the industry, you should be able to provide me with the necessary answers and data to back up your claims.

From now on when I mention diamonds, I'm talking about diamonds as a gemstone, not the how we use diamonds as abrasives, drill bits etc.

Let start with the value of a diamond. In one of your earlier posts, you compared the value of Diamonds to Gold, somehow trying to assume that Gold and Diamonds are economically valued the same way. How wrong you are. The amount of Gold on this planet is limited, diamonds are not. Gold has utility (think semi-conductors), diamonds are a luxury item. Gold is malleable, diamond is not. Diamonds are forever yea right... take your diamond and break it, and see if you can get even a tenth of the value you paid for it. You can break Gold into a million pieces, melt it, and it would still retain its value. Hence there is an inherent quality in Gold that gives it value, what is the value of diamonds? How do you determine the value of diamonds?

Who releases the information on what diamonds should be priced at? If I recall, that company would be De Beers no? Basically the supplier sets the price for the diamonds, and the supplier has also artificially controlled the supply of the diamonds to create an artificial rarity. So please tell me, how is the price of diamonds not arbitrary? It doesn't really matter whether you have a bunch of standards and certificates to grade diamonds, if the supplier chooses to change the value of diamonds its up to them and the entire market follows. As far as I know, the mechanics on pricing for the diamonds isn't transparent either. Do you see why I said the standards are an illusion? The standards have no real bearing on the actual value of the diamond.

Now lets move on to the value of diamonds as an investment. You mentioned earlier that a diamond bought in the 1960s for $400 would cost $4000 in 2000 and if a person bought a diamond in 1980s, they can expect a 50%-100% increase in value. So lets say if its $400, that would mean between $600-$800 correct? At first glance your point may seem strong, that in 40 years you can get an ROI of 1000%. Yet you didn't take into account inflation, the value of money changes as time goes on.

Using this website: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ which allows us to calculate inflation rates, we can see how much something really costs in different years.

1960 - 2000: $400 becomes $2322
1980 - 2000: $400 becomes $833

So your $400 investment in 1960 is worth $2322 in 2000. When you sell it off at $4000, that would mean you only make a profit of roughly 72%. A FAR CRY from your claim value of 1000%. For 1980 to 2000, your ROI is actually negative, albeit by a small percentage 4%. A mere 72% profit after 40 years? Can you honestly tell me that it is a good investment? To make matters even worse, your diamond can DEGRADE so its value may drop even further since its not the same grade it was when you bought it. So much for diamonds being forever huh?

Now here is a very important question... Are these values appraised, retail or wholesale values?. Appraised values can easily be inflated, and may not reflect actual market prices. If your figure of $4000 is retail, then surely the amount you can sell it for is much lower. Why would a merchant buy from you at higher prices when he can get the stone at wholesale prices? Whatever you sell has to be below the wholesale value for the merchant to make profit right?

Since you've been in the industry, how active is the 2nd hand market? What are the trade ratios between the retail and used market for diamonds? If a seller were to sell their diamonds, where would be the best place to go to, and what kind of resale value can they expect? wholesale price? 10-20% less? 50% less? This is something I'm really interested in knowing, and I'm sure it'll help many people in Malaysia who are looking to sell their diamonds in this bad economy.

So in summary, Diamonds have no inherent value because it lacks in both utility and scarcity, nor does it make a good investment option. So people who buy into diamonds, thinking that they're good because its so expensive, are akin to audiophiles paying $485 for a wooden volume knob. An item bought at such inflated prices, only because of a skewed perception of its actual value.

See, sales person talk again. I'm not asking you to convince me to buy diamonds, this is a topic for information, and since you've been in the industry, PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION. You had the gall to accuse my points of having no educational basis, I just provided a nice lengthy explanation of how the market works and commodities are valued. Are you still going to say its my opinion? In all likelihood, the value and investment choice of the diamond is your opinion that has no foundation in education.

Why don't you answer the questions? Its not about convincing me to buy or not, that is irrelevant. Its all about information and education. You believe people should know about HOW to buy diamonds, that is not wrong. However, I also believe that people should also know the history of diamonds, how the market works and whether or not the diamond has good re-sale value.

Stop your sales talk and provide us the information that only an insider should know.
I do not know yet, I plan to design a custom ring when the time comes, but that depends a lot on my partner as the ring will be designed to fit her. What stones it includes really depends on who my partner is, diamonds may or may not be included.

So are you going to continue on the track of providing information about diamonds in this topic? Or are you just going to run away from my questions because you can't answer them?

Stop your sales talk and provide us the information that only an insider should know.

nice debate between moorish&silverhawk.
as for me, the sparkling of the diamond is enough

1. is it abnormal for a man to wear a diamond ring, isn't it?
i'm more into diamond than other gemstone..

2. for rm1k, what kind of diamond  can i get, with silver ring as its base (malays say "ikat")?

i'm wearing a 0.18Ct Love Diamond embedded into 2mm thick, 4.5mm wide white gold ring

There are a lot of promos around, go to as many shops as you can and look at as many diamonds as you can... and most importantly... don't give in to the sales person's sweet talk... i've rejected at least 10 shops before buying that ring...

Not the time yet la
When the time comes, then only think about it. After all, the proposal has to fit the girl, no point making general ideas right now, you'll be changing them later anyway
A post about "educating" consumers should be about education. Education should try its best to be impartial, neutral and objective. The information moorish has provided is good, its not wrong, but its only one side of the story. Why can't she talk about the other side? She keeps saying she's been in the industry, and that's good, but why only give one side of the story? She's no longer a sales person, and consumers should be educated the best they can so that they can make the best decision for themselves.

Do you agree to this?
Maam, is your mind so one-tracked and narrow? I'm arguing against the actual value of diamonds, not its perceived value. It doesn't matter to me what the actual value is, as long as I'm willing to pay the price. We're here to educate people no? There is a lot of marketing hype that diamonds are forever (false), diamonds are rare and precious (false) and that diamonds make a good investment (false).

I may not believe in the actual values of diamonds, but if they fit the purpose I need it for, then I would most likely be willing to pay its price. Can you understand the difference between education and personal choice?
Really? Won't lose money or value? You said in your earlier posts that within 5 years your diamond might lose its value because you've been using it so it might get damaged and thus becomes a lower grade stone. Are you going to back track on this? I also provided you data on how the prices go up according to inflation rates, which from the 1980-2000 data actually showed that the diamond dropped in value by 4%.

Lets make things simple. Explain to use the re-sale value and market for diamonds. Where can you go to sell your diamonds? What values can you expect for it (compared to wholesale value and the value which you bought it at)? How easy is it to sell the diamond? How likely is it that you will get a fair price for your diamond? Basically, provide us the necessary information should we choose to resell our diamonds for money in this horrid economy.
See, typical sales talk again. You only educate for people to buy, you don't educate for people to make informed decisions. All your information is biased and skewed towards a sale. Anything information that leads away from it, you deny/ignore. C`mon, you're not a sales person for them any more. Why not share the information objectively and let people decide for themselves?

I've got a question regarding the investment thing specifically appreciation of diamonds

Would this hurt diamond's resale value or appreciation since it can be cultured without any flaws?
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/SavingandDebt/P97816.asp

I have to disagree on this. The most important 'C' is Carat. If your stone is too small, then the other Cs wont matter  .  Any thing less than 0.5 Carat would be too small to see the difference in the other Cs. You cant tell - the colour, cut only if it is very bad, defenitely cant see the clarity cause nothing/too small to make any significant difference.  

Got a nice solitaire of 0.5 Carat, Brilliant cut, Colour E, VVS2, GIA from Carat Club. Cheaper and better quality then the other shops. 

Are you sure someone won't be able to tell the difference of the other 4C's if it was smaller than 0.5ct, a 0.4ct perhaps? Less likely maybe, but is possible even without a loupe. 

I agree that when too small, the other C's won't matter as much. But still, i prefer a small sparkling stone than a bigger lifeless stone. The beauty with an excellent cut stone is how it stands out in low-light situations. All stones badly cut or not will still stand out under a jewellery store's dazzling lights. Also, I've seen how an excellent cut stone looks bigger visually compared to badly cut stones even though carat size is of the same. (badly cut stones suffer light leakage)

okok, technicalities aside, must be a lovely stone you got anyway!

Lol Moorish and the other pro-diamond ppl here. Why are you avoiding the issue and silverhawk's questions?

Do you think that if you accuse him of being a troll and vigorously re-affirm your DeBeers sales points people will fall in line to listen to you like sheeple?

Maybe that will work... on people with no brains.
My dear, it is YOU who is unacquianted with logic and the process of informed, educational debate.

It is of course easier to ignore Silverhawk than to answer the questions he posed to you. The only thing you know about diamonds is what you have been spoonfed to believe. That, and the fact that by selling diamonds you can get rich.

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Added on April 27, 2009, 6:51 pm

Diamonds, unlike gold and oil, have no real economic usage, and its price is kept afloat by perceived value alone.

It is this over-inflated perceived value, and it's association with perceived prestige, along with the monopoly on the supply and demand exacted by DeBeers, which has financed dictators and human rights violators such as Mobutu Sese Seko, Charles Taylor and Foday Sankoh. The artificially high prices of diamonds has financed civil wars in Angola and the Congo for decades and armed militias who practise the recruitment of child soldiers and drug them up with hard narcotics to serve as cannon fodder.

The next time you buy a diamond, think very, VERY carefully where your money goes. Who does it ultimately profit?

Just like I encourage you to do so when you buy furniture made from rare hardwood timbers.

Just like I encourage you to do so when you buy furniture made from rare hardwood timbers.

how are man-made diamonds different from natural occuring ones?
they are still carbon with the same crystalline structure so the refraction index will be the same thus cuts that are available for natural ones will be available for man-made ones as well

diamonds worth investing? yes, if it makes your significant other happy then it is priceless. other than that it is an over-rated, over-priced stone. now can we switch topics please? 

I'm comparing diamonds with gold and oil because Moorish made that comparison earlier. When you brought up "supply and demand" I assumed you also believed that diamonds are governed by the same market forces that govern gold prices, oil, or even the stock exchange.

There are different types of manmade diamonds, the best one I've read so far is Moissanite, can't find is in Malaysia though, really curious to know if what's stated online is really true...

As everything else in this world, there's always a difference between something u get from nature with something that is manmade/cultured/bred...no?

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Added on April 28, 2009, 8:09 am
Haha, sorry:p
Lost touch ofdiamond prices

I've compared gia and their love diamond side by side before, that's why I chose the latter, maybe cos my rock was only 0.3cts   

Thanks for the price update

She has a very simplistic and socially accepted view of the matter. That is the industry that she is in and to be a good sales person you need to have faith in your product. So challaging her on it, again is moot.

2. To her as long as the object inflate in price over time hence initial investment have grown. Therefore good. To her defence she said you can sell it should you need cash. Dont think she meant it as an investment. 

3. Diamonds are forever. Takes carbon to become diamond in many many thousands/million(?) of years to form and it is still the hardest element known to man. So theoritically it is "forever" 

ooo. diamonds. 

my favourite so far, n the one n only is from tiffanys and co.

[attachmentid=931213][attachmentid=931215]
LUCIDA.

fuhh.... sini macam semua orang benci diamond

Yes, the Iraq war was motivated by oil and several other unsaid agendas. Yes, America spat forth a torrent of bullshit about "preserving freedom" and "human rights" (but shut up about the latter when we found out they were committing torture, massacre and punitive rape on men and women).

As you can see the ugly reality does not match the fabricated lie.

Diamonds would be a analogy for this also. It's fabricated lies of being worth the money you pay for it for sentimental reasons of "romance" and "special" finances the cutting off of breasts in Africa

YES, the CUTTING OFF OF BREASTS IN AFRICA, the very same thing that you girls watch on Oprah and then CRY about

and the conscription of entire villages to work as slaves in diamond mines in Myanmar.
You've been sodomised with a spiked strap-on too, for real?

I was just being sarcastic when I feted wlcling. I think that some experiences are not worth the price. 
I don't hate diamonds. I hate dirty lies.
LOL!!!
Your husband really loves you. You should be loyal to him. A man who does not love or appreciate you that much might ask you to grow up or worse, grow a brain, and that would be horrible.

Lalala syndrome, anyone?
My wife doesn't need diamonds to look pretty and feel loved.

You also have no idea how much walking I do.

Saved for posterity. This comeback of yours is priceless.

You really don't know what's going on, do you? You must have had some real trouble following the debate and dealing with all the issues, points and nuances raised.

I almost pity you.
Except that BREASTS WERE SLICED OFF IN AFRICA 

must... calm down... before....!!! SMASH TABLE IN TWO!!!!!!

Ok ok, no need to force the point. You and Bishop do not care.

See, that's very easy to say isn't it?

Just say that you do not care that breasts were cut off in Africa. You just want to preserve your feelings of "pretty", "special" and "romance".

No need to go the round about way and bring up oil, Iraq or Palestine.

Come on. Just say it, the both of you. Trust me, it's liberating.

So, you are saying that I am hypocrite because I use petrol?

That's what you and Bishop are trying to say, aren't you?

You're both truly geniuses.

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Added on April 28, 2009, 4:10 pm^ I'm waiting to see how Moorish and Bishop answers this.

Go ahead, guys. Dig a deeper hole for yourselves.

sad to say, this topic is no longer Cupid corner material. Sorry that some people deviate from that.

Moorish, its a losing war. This thread surely wasn't created to delve into diamonds as an investment yah? Let's concentrate on helping the lost souls find their perfect stone for whatever reason they choose to.

Peace out everyone!

You sure about that? Isn't that what Moorish said? That diamonds are a good investment?

Want me to find the post where she said that?