Trading paypal is inherently unsafe. Once funds are sent, they can be reversed, at the recipient's expense. This, together with "no-shows", have caused several members to lose their money to conmen recently. The problem is compounded by the fact that nobody would "COD" for paypal.

We are considering stopping all paypal funds trading in LYN. Let's discuss:

1) If paypal funds trading were to continue, how do we ensure security for traders?
2) If paypal funds trading is to be removed, what alternatives are there for people who need to buy/sell paypal funds?

I agree the trading to be stop.

There is no good support from our local law for any PayPal issue. User at his own risk.

I also can see there is more and more PayPal trading end up with dispute now day. This is not good for LYN reputation.

PayPal transaction is done online, even if COD and seller show the transaction being made, seller still can report to PayPal to reverse the fund after buyer left.

This post has been edited by nordingh: Apr 14 2009, 02:11 PM

my thought would be


1) there's no way to secure it because all trading is done on PayPal itself. whether or not the supposed buyer returns the funds in the other currency is really beyond our control.

there's 2 ways of transaction.

a) PP fund transferred first, then actual funds transferred.
b) actual funds transferred first, then PP funds transferred. which is same as buying goods from people.


2) personally i think this part should be the concern of the buyer and seller and not LYN, unless LYN intends to be a medium of interaction of PayPal users.

nowadays with PayPal being able to be credited to Debit cards, and Debit cards being widely available - I don't see the need of selling off funds already, the conversion rate of PayPal to cards is still higher than buy/sell.

the thing that makes people BUY PP funds is people tend to offer selling at lower exchange rate. eg 3.3 instead of 3.6. (using USD)

-------------

the safest way is probably buyer and seller meet up at CC. buyer bring RM, seller bring notebook or whatever. do the transaction right there with both witness-ing.

paypal shud be stop in here..
cox too many of them try 2 con forumer by selling it...
i think it shud be stop immediately...
dun give them a chance 2 cheat/con ppl here...

Well, if Pay Pal sales were to stop, where would the members get their paypal funds? On some other forum maybe? IMHO, I strongly disagree on stopping paypal in LYF.
As what was stated on the LYF policy, any trades that occurs in LYF is strictly personal and LYF is not held responsible in any case of fraud. Does anyone here think that by stopping PayPal trading would actually help in reducing the number of con-cases? No. There will always be people trying to rip somebody else off in some other way.
As what was quoted by Goldfries, meeting up is not deemed a solution as well since Paypal has the right to freeze your account maybe 2-3 days later. What happens then if the seller then decides to MIA?
What we actually need now is a respectable and responsible seller/buyer.
I would suggest that LYF admin to give credit or find some way or another to give a recognition say "Verified PayPal Trader" on their avatar. Just like the title "safe trader"
What do you say?

This post has been edited by wookp: Apr 14 2009, 04:03 PM

I would suggest that the staff here to create a list of safe paypal fund seller; or maybe provide a special tag for trusted paypal merchant.

There's another thing that I would like to suggest, which is to add a huge sign on each PayPal related topic with "Beware! LYF will not be held responsible for PayPal frauds. To see the list of trusted LYF PayPal traders, click here"

I already warned that trading Paypal on forums like this is against the rules of Ministry of Finance as this requires a "License" for doing such trades with foreign currency like USD or GBP or AUD..

The moderators and admins ignored my emails earlier. Now atleast wake up and ban this activity to avoid legal issues in future.

Let's bring harmony and peace here rather than conman issues..

at least it's a whole lot safer than seeing your money go off. think of it as CODing.

if you took note of my sentence, i said "safest way" - i did not in any way say it was a solution.



and how far can we maintain a safe trading before a person run away with it?

all it takes is a few genuine trade, then after that commit the "robbery"

here's another case....

http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthre...1993344&page=17

Will it help if the mod ask for a photocopy of identification card for whoever applying for the so called "safe paypal merchant" tag?

Oh...Sorry...Eyes a bit blur...Sorry taiko Goldfries...
The link you provided is very informative and that's why normally I will trade IF:
1. I have traded with him/her before
2. The bank acc and paypal acc must be the same name
3. He/She must provide me his/her contact number and sometimes I/C for newbies.

Its no different with trading other stuffs than trading paypal...ppl buy stuffs via postage and the seller dont post item so they get conned just like paypal

If ppl are dumb enough to believe ppl selling at super low rate or buying from newbie account, what stops them from buying other stuffs and get conned as well?

Futhermore if they cant get paypal from here, they go to lelong.com or ebay.com or mudah.com.my and get conned too, so whats the difference?

source : https://www.paypal.com/my/cgi-bin/webscr?cm...use/index_frame

Bro, if buy stuff, still can opt for COD, check/test the item before pay. But for PayPal, meet, COD or bank transfer to pay seller, PayPal fund still done electronically. There is some different there.

Buyer can go to lelong, ebay or mudah to buy PayPal fund, that for sure will happen. 3 place is not as worst as got 4 place for conmen to strike.

Prevention is Better Than Cure.

the difference is those 3 are trading sites but LYN is a forum.

and i think those 3 actually have better security for buyer / seller protection.

Also, to reduce the number of stupid dispute generally.

Yes, we have paypal traders here who have no capital/not enough capital, but doing paypal trading like they are doing permanent business with it.

When something happens(in this case, reversal/fund held/etc), they easily wash their hands up with excuses. Take xx offer instead of full refund and etc which I think is pretty ridiculous.

@wacky

It's not all about stopping paypal. It's about stopping the traders which always causes disputes esp. here in LYN. Although there's measure being taken behind the scene to prevent these, but it still happens.

We just can't monitor all of the paypal thread itself in LYN. Use the filter tag and check how many active thread are there. And a lot of this traders(buyers) always dare to risk with new members(seller) as well. Some barely 1 month old and have successful trading list worth hundreds. If not mistaken, there's 1 thread in dispute section itself, 2 members get conned for ~4k by 1 member itself. See the brighter point, if they want to con, find other place. 4k with 2 members itself is a large sum. Members willing to trade with these members just for the cheaper 30cent rate? I see this is pretty ridiculous really. If there's something need to be done, it's about educating these buyer to trade safely. Internet fraud have come to a point that we cannot do nothing. If there's way to educate and stop fraud, why don't we try that? At least it is better than doing nothing and watching them getting freely, flashing their moolah and get free. Also remember, our own police is not really as efficient as other countries.

I din really exposed to those sites. mind to eleborate more on what u mean by better security?

i haven't try mudah either but if you used Lelong or Ebay before, you'll see that registration requires more details than a typical LYN account where you can create duplicates every now and then.

the problem with PayPal buy / sell is that it is of higher risk compared to buying goods which you can actually COD and even if the product is of bad state, there's always warranty (if any).

Only lelong have option to become a verify seller/buyer by providing them a copy of business registration, mykad and other bills header.

Ebay, to become seller, must verify using CC but still can cheat by using some prepaid Debit Card.

Mudah, just simple registration only during posting. Need only valid email address to verify. That why I never bought or sell at mudah.

i hav different opinion... instead of stop selling paypal, its better to allow only ONE seller to do transaction here... da seller should be self pick by LYN authorities

reason: -its easy to monitor da seller
-eliminate chances of getting con

lol.. what's the point having 1 seller?

might as well scrap the idea..
heard of monopoly?
also that 1 seller also can runaway after getting big moolah....instead of reduce, it increases..

-i noe its monopoly, but shouldn't be protecting buyer its da main job priority of da authorities here.
-da 1 seller should undergone strict inspection b4 become PP seller here [same concept as safe trader tag here]
-since da mod r trading here oso, why not given them privileges to trade PP .. juz my suggestion

This post has been edited by edmunz: Apr 14 2009, 07:44 PM

I do agree with steve. I guess what LYF can do is to educate potential buyers or sellers. That's all. LYF can't do everything. Even Lelong has fraud cases. Banning PayPal sales is like banning smoking in Malaysia since it is known fact the smoking is hazardous...PS I am smoker myself...LOL

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Added on April 14, 2009, 7:40 pmWhat about people who sell to this so called appointed seller of LYF? He still has to get funds from somewhere right? What if he gets conned from other PayPal sellers?

This post has been edited by wookp: Apr 14 2009, 07:40 PM

being PP seller doesnt mean he need to buy from other seller... he can must buy directly from PP [R&R]

This post has been edited by edmunz: Apr 14 2009, 07:48 PM

I... I don't think its a good idea to stop paypal selling here. Because seriously I feel safer to buy my paypal funds from here than other place like Lelong/Mudah.

I think its more on the risk of the buyer. Its up to them who they want to buy. They can choose to buy from reputable full time paypal seller or they can also choose to buy from new rogue sellers.

Just because there is a potential to scam people doesn't mean it should be banned. For example other trades here can be a potential scam too like for example bulk threads? And even for things dealt through postage also can scammed. So does it mean we are to stop all kind of trading?

Honestly if really LYN stop trading of paypal I seriously don't know where to buy it anymore.

or, if someone wants to be a paypal seller, they have to:
- meet mods/buyer and then sent in their information such as ic to the mods and get a tag like "verified paypal seller" and only they can start selling paypal in the forum.

never buy/sell paypal before, not sure how it works. just voice out what i got in my mind.

IC?
I don't think you're matured enough to talk here.
Sending your copy of IC to strangers?

That's the most stupid action a person will take.
I don't even have enough trust to Big Co. to keep my copy of photostat IC. LOL

from my point, i would say stop the trading... i'd seeing alot of PP concase, many has been con and bringing the issue up and still got ppl fall into the trap.

some one had mentioned b4, debit card can be apply easily eg. Maybank and Ambank also have.

i wonder, since they can fork out hundred or thousand ringgit to buy PP fund from other ppl, why dont they just take a little time to apply the debit card? after that registered 1 PP acc. is that so trouble??

if they are so lazy to do all that, then they deserved to be (con/cheat) (sorry for a little bit harsh). but really, if u have the cash in hand, do it with a proper way, it saves u from being con. and dont forget, the applied/registered Debit card and PP acc will be following u all the time. Its YOURS. u wont need to afraid your fund being stole/reveresed bla bla bal....

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Added on April 14, 2009, 8:48 pmFYI, the LYN Staff had already clearly mentioned in another thread, LYN is a communities forum, NOT trading platform. LYN does not hold any resposibilty on what ever trading in here.

so, i guess your idea wont work.

This post has been edited by laichong: Apr 14 2009, 08:48 PM

Buy if u trust the seller and don't blame others for it.That's the risk that u must take when trading here and other places.or else u can use debitcard for the transaction eventhough it's quite expensive.

educated already. but how to educate further when people don't read or don't use common sense?

come to think of it, what's there to educate? i think all paypal buyer / seller are aware of such cases.

how to verify a paypal "seller" ...??

Seller's IC , + postal address according to IC (*must be current)
sending a generated set of numbers using snail mail letter to house address and ask seller to key into lyn for verification (*that is how paypal do to verify the user*)


optional : only registered company email , or uni / college 's email add.
no public email address like gmail / yahoo / hotmail.


optional : post/fax Point of Identification documents with full name and address ...... Bank statement/ telephone bills/ etc...


lastly, appoint a LYN middle man ... seller sell to buyer..
buyer receipt paypal ... (*buy what ever....) transaction smooth .... buyer to approve payment to be release ... lyn release to seller ... (*time consuming but save*)


this are standard paypal / ebay transactions ..

can always get paypal from confirmed bank account.

and i strongly suggets to stop thos VCC sales. been cases where seller claimed to be "verified" with that but its just a virtual one. where verified by bank account is much safer

STOP VCC! if u need one get those debit credit card by MOL , tunes and such!

No, it's not.
Their job is to maintain this forum, not to maintain the safety of the buyers.

The authorities of this forum are not paid, they are doing it on their own free will.

This post has been edited by sHawTY: Apr 14 2009, 11:36 PM

im kinda on the fence with this one....

agree to stop due to the con cases etc etc...

disagree to stop coz i kinda need them as well....they are currently my only source of paypal funds due to the fact that citibank became shittybank...and im not a fan of multiple credit cards.

but when i buy i tend to see their trade history first...n i see who they sold to...my previous transaction, after going through their trade list...i noticed a name of a bulker i trust as one of the seller's customers (n a big amount too)..hence the confidence to buy from the seller.



imho.... all trade on LYN is done at forumer's own risk...LYN staff/ admins can only help with disputes (if they so choose).

like shawty said...they aint being paid...the fact that theyre doing this on their own free will is damn good already....only thing is, it adds to their burden.

Just so happened that I saw this topic under recent topics, so I thought I might chime in my 0.02.

I personally buy Paypal from some people here once in awhile, whenever I need to pay people overseas. I cannot find a better place to buy Paypal, as honestly the rates they charge if they charge from my PB debit card is a ripoff, and I don't trust Lelong/etc as much as traders here.

What I do is I look for the people whose topic looks professional and has done alot of paypal trading before, or just generally active (just check the posts made by the seller). The rates might not be as attractive as some insane deals but the risk is much lower. Up till now, I've probably bought cumulatively over RM2k of paypal, without any problems.

I support the idea of having a LYN watchdog over this, I mean, let's face it, a huge part of LYN now is the trade forums, and I know alot of people who come to LYN just for the trade forums. Heck, most of the time, when I'm busy, I only check LYN for the trade forums only too. As much as LYN is a 'community' site and not a 'trading' site, the trade forums are undeniably one of Malaysia's biggest and fastest moving ones. It's about time that LYN get some sort of traders control going for high-risk transactions such as Paypal transfers. Expand on the safe trader system which currently exists?

Perhaps hire someone to monitor the trade forums and do a verification system similar to lelong? Heck, maybe even +rating system, and trader rankings based on the rating, and maybe reserve high-risk transactions only for high level traders that are trustworthy? LYN gets alot of sponsors and the ads here and there, that is probably enough to hire a person to do this? (Seeing as the trade forums generate probably alot if not most of LYN forums traffic, since the logic being traders normally keep refreshing and revisiting for updates on trades)

If people want to cheat, they will cheat, if you ban paypal they'll just cheat in a different way. Better to setup a system where there are checks around so cheats overall are prevented wholly and not just diverting the problem to another type of merchandise.

I sell my paypal fund here once in a while, recently I provide my I.C, my h/p, my emails, my bank, n my full name. How about like this:
To be a paypal fund seller, have to be verify by staff 1st, get all the details to verify like how lelong.com.my does.

Last time, u guys stop Rapidshare, now going for Paypal...

I believe prevention is better than cure but how about providing more secure methods for the transaction between both parties? I still prefer Lowyat.net as my buy and sell forum rather than others.

Not only paypal been used to con ppl, but others thing like previous bulk scam case and selling 2nd hand as new unit case. So I don't think stop paypal trading will bring harmony as ppl will think others way to scam others by another new methods. If you can stop this scam, why don't providing safer methods for all of us like verifying b4 trade.

This post has been edited by David900924: Apr 15 2009, 02:05 AM

You have to understand that we are not really a trading website. Also, we do not have the man power to do all these verifications.

Why was this brought up; because there's more and more paypal cons happening. Thus we're now inviting forrumers to engage in this discussion to see what can be done.

However, I doubted that verification by staffs is the way to go. Unless se7en decided to hire some ppl just to monitor or acted as the middleman in all sales transactions.

Funny thing is a lot have advices had been sent out in regards to scams or way conman deals, but there's bound to be someone caught by the scam. Mostly due to ignorance.

This post has been edited by b00n: Apr 15 2009, 03:00 AM

Exactly. And please, don't ever ever change it.
I'd hate to see what this forum would turn into if it changes from a community forum into a trade forum.

oh well... everything trading does has the risk and just how risky it can be. as long as there is no any regulations to intervene in pp buying&selling thus the fraud will still happen. I heard from one of my friend who recently dealt with lyn moderator still kena fraud from the moderator... how pathentic it can be if u say just to set one seller and how to def and know whether the seller is reliable even he/she is moderator?

yea and by having just one.he/she can markup due to no other sellers.

maybe set a few.

Wow, who is that LYN moderator??? interesting....

On a side note, why not implement a rating system on our profile where people can give us a feedback on each buy/sell transaction?? I traded alot on Anandtech before and that's how they go about business.

and so far. for the seller's feedback page is still forever under construction?

just my 2 cents. buy at your own risk & buy from seller that u trust . hope LYN don't limit the paypal sellers

This post has been edited by tHeRiDdLeR: Apr 15 2009, 03:09 PM

totally stopping paypal sales is not the best solution.

I think we are not the only one facing this problem. Paypal problems is worldwide. There are really lots of fraud with paypal. The way paypal is setup is to provide protection over paypal. That is why I will avoid trading using paypal whenever possible.

Anyway, maybe we could start by having a few paypal verified members only. Only these people are allowed to sell funds. Setup a paypal trading thread where all paypal related trading goes there. The seller must provide transparency. Each seller will have their details posted there. Like company name, address, IC and so on.

BUT must have even bigger sentence written there "The sellers are only recommendation from lowyat.net. Any disputes/problems should not be held responsible by lowyat.net".

To get a good idea on what I'm talking about:

http://www.heatware.com/eval.php?id=1319

Check that.

I suggest LYN crew maybe able to spin a team to develope the site. Traders who choose to trade on LYN should provide their credentials to a certain LYN member as a central database. This would be a huge effort initially but it's worth it.

haha, should i disclose here? it is very interesting story and i guess i shall encourage my friend to open dispute to share this experience with everyone

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Added on April 15, 2009, 5:21 pmand yes.. i think what you said is right. However due to the lyn team, they did not intervene much in our trading matter because this is not a real platform for us to trade but it is more like a community for us to discuss and deal.

bottomline, it would be really great if they can implement a team to really enforce the trade zone with better regulation and strict trading rules. Verify all sellers and buyers identity in order to buy and sell in this forum

This post has been edited by princess_autumn87: Apr 15 2009, 05:21 PM

Verifying all the sellers and buyers can be a one of thing. Like some of the mods say, the seller can start selling small stuffs before going for a one time deal to rip everyone off. In my years in trading in the US, I've seen alot of type of scams happening. This is inevitable, at the end of the day, it still boils down to the seller and buyer itself to take precaution. LYN is a very good resource for getting good deals. To begin with, we can give some leeway for some long term dealers which has established their reputation here.....

yes you are rite...

pls dont stop paypal trading. i'm having hard time to buy paypal if forum doesnt provide any funds anymore where to buy...huwaaaa

link it to ur bank acc

How can we do that?

I added my Maybank account but its useless.




Edit:
I guess we only can't add funds to Paypal account. When we pay for sth. via Paypal, it will automatically deduct from our Bank accounts. is that true?

Edit2:
Great step by step instruction to add Maybank Visa Debit Card!!

This post has been edited by Farshid.T: Jan 5 2010, 09:18 PM

conclusion ? LYN has banned us from selling paypal.
hmmmm

who cares about the paypal funding? why don't go the http://www.tunemoney.com and get yourself a debit card? Next time you can transfer fund from your Maybank account and link that card to Paypal.

This post has been edited by junclj: Jan 10 2010, 07:28 PM