After all that has been said, I'd like to focus on a couple of points.

Women work because men are "defective" and cannot provide for the family
One cannot say that just because men hunted for food while women stayed home to care for the home back during the days of our forefathers, that the same symbiotic relationship is applicable today. The main thing you fail to take into consideration is change, and as things change, so do we or we become extinct. Dinosaurs were wiped out during the ice age because they could not adapt to the cold. As nature intended however, life evolved and animals like the woolly mammoth had thick fur to protect themselves from the cold. If your husband goes bust and cannot provide, you blame him for being stupid. Who is it that chose not to equip herself to be self sufficient in such a situation again? It's why there are prenups right? You can blame men all you want but that isn't going to change the fact that in the event of anything unforseen, you are not able to fend for yourself and it was down to a choice made by you.

Back then there was no concept of currency. You looked for a cave, called it your own and protected it from intruders. There was no social class, unlike today. The playing field was flat back then, unlike today. Back then the strongest survived, hence why men were the hunters, because we are genetically designed to be physically stronger. Today, the physical advantage that men had over women has been marginalised. Women can make money just as easily as men. Women today are less feeble and weak simply because we need not rely on brute strength anymore for survival. It is why you see more and more women rising to the fore. Not because they have to, but because they now know they need no longer be seen as the weaker sex anymore. There is no better feeling that earning something through your own hardwork. If you were an architect, the feeling you get from sitting back, admiring the majestic piece of architecture you just designed is orgasmic. If you were a surgeon who had just performed a complex procedure saving the life of a patient, you'll feel a great sense of pride. There respect you'll garner is immeasurable. Not too long ago, this was a man's world but no longer. Women want a piece of it too, and kudos to them I say.

You really think Margaret Thatcher or Benazir Bhutto walk up on day and said, "Men are useless, think I'll become Prime Minister to feed myself"? You reckon women like Oprah Winfrey, Ellen Degeneres, Condaleeza Rice, Hilary Clinton, etc are doing what they are doing because they have to? If this were true, they would not be working anymore because the wealth they've accumulated is sufficient to sustain them for this life time, possibly even the next. Stupid women. They should have relied on men eh?

Men work, women stay home and make babies
This is somewhat similar the title discussed above. I'm now going to focus on our perceived roles in society. I hear women and men talk all the time about not wanting to work. They complain about their jobs and yet I find that it's mostly superficial. Often, they draw a deep sense of satisfaction and self worth from a job well done. The wonderful thing is that jobs there days do not discriminate when it comes to sex anymore. Women can wash cars and men can cook. Women can join the army and men can decorate the house.

Many of the great chefs in the world are men e.g. Gordon Ramsey, Ferran Adria, Wolfgang Puck and so on. Many of the great designers in the world are men e.g. Armani, Versace and Dior. What about interior designers like Olsen, Redd and Drake? Now in the world you come from, these people cannot exist because they are in industries that advocate what is perceived to be a woman's duties. Condazeela Rice as Secretary of Defence? Come on, we're talking about war, that's a man's job. Today, women account for 20% of the US military. They were forced to join you reckon? Even if they had to work, why the military? Does it pay all that well? Why then? Ursula Burns become the first black woman to run a Fortune500 company earlier this year. You reckon it's because she had to?

The point I'm trying to make is that women these days are just as hungry for success, recognition and respect as men are. Because we now live in a world where the playing field is even, women are rising to the fore, not because they have to but because they want to. For years women have fought to be seen as equals to men and I am glad that they've made progress. There is nothing wrong with being a housewife, but don't think for a moment that women work just because they have to. It's arcane to suggest that in light of all the changes that have taken place over the years, that women should confine themselves to playing a supporting role. Fairplay if you want to be a housewife, but don't insult other women who have other ambitions.

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Added on October 10, 2009, 2:00 pmOh and debbie, after reading several of your posts, it isn't your English that is the problem. It's your comprehension. Time and time again I see you repeating the same points even after other posters have addressed them. Is it a memory thing maybe? Let me give you an example. I'll just focus on one of your points:-



No one is suggesting that money isn't important. No one is suggesting that money doesn't make your life easier and more comfortable. The issue here is that you seem to think that men are expected to be the sole providers. Therefore when you look for a guy, you are assigning a dollar value to him. It's different to when a guy offers for you to stay home, than when you expect to stay home. Focus.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 10 2009, 02:08 PM

The to clarify things, I'm not demanding that women work, never did in any of my posts. I'm stating that a lot of women these days want a career. This was in reference to your suggestion that women work because they have to. The examples I gave are of women who chose to excel in their professional lives. They weren't forced into it. Gone are preconceived notions that it's a man's world and women should stay home and make babies. It's probably this belief that leads to some women these days expecting to be taken care of monetarily speaking.

Mmm but by saying that it's proven stayhome moms make better mothers, doesn't it indicate that you feel all women should be housewives? If they have careers, your post suggests they aren't as good a parent. So yeah, they can work if they want to but someone like you for example or any other housewife will always be the better parent? I don't want to make assumptions here which is why I'm checking with you.

Now I'm left wondering how much smarter I could have been had my mom not worked.

Confusion. Are you implying that I'm a baby or are you asking if I have any? Anyway the answer to both is no.

What's worrying is that u gave so many reasons why u think women work and none of them have to do with wanting a sense of achievement. It's pleasurable being in the military? Thatcher was forced to be PM by her husband? Did u read my post? Your other reason was that they work to provide for their kids. So why not just do the bare minimum? Why overachieve? What about single women then? What do they work for? I don't know about u or your generation of women but I know a lot who do well at their jobs because they enjoy having careers. U probably can't relate though.

As for the rest of your post, I think it's more relevant to a parenting thread. My friends and I aren't into crime and we all had working parents. There is no ideal situation. We adapt to the changing environment. Many women have. By that I don't mean that u go out and work if u want to be a housewife. I mean u need to change your mindset to accept that some choose to work out of free will. Ask around.

A job is merely a means to an end. We work because we have to. Bigger picture - success- recognition - sense of achievement. How many actually get paid to do what they love? A very small percentile. In general, we all work to survive. Sometimes, it is a struggle. You are one of the lucky few to have a husband that can and willingly pays for everything. Not everyone is as fortunate. Yes, it may be because men are 'defective'. Women work to help us men out and you know what? Some women actually enjoy it. Some women enjoy standing side by side with their men, striving for a better future together. They work towards saving for a holiday, a house, a car, anything that they can share and while the destination is the same, sometimes the journey does matter. Just on the other thread, you saw a poster relate how his wife stood by him when he was down financially and how they came through it together. With my gf, we plan holidays all the time and save for it.

Yes, we may end up having jobs we don't like, women included but when your efforts are rewarded through holidays, etc, it becomes worthwhile.

I'm not sure where you get your statistics from, because I can't conclusively say that only a small number of women hope to be in high positions. I won't discount that you talk to your friends about this topic but you have to realise that often, people of a similar mindset hang out together. All I know is many of the girls I know actually excell in their jobs. They may not like to work, but the end result makes up for it. Shopping, holidays, etc is reward enough.

You say I ignore your explanation on the working women. Well while you may discount my claim that a lot of women today want careers, you cannot discount that more and more women are successful. Believe me, the numbers will continue to spike. I don't like to make assumptions but I think this is a really safe one.

I'm sure all women want men to take care of them. Those I know want that but for different reasons than you think. They want the oppportunity to pursue their interests e.g. opening a boutique, beauty centre, etc. For this, it always helps to have a stable income in the event your business doesn't take off. Most women I know today do not enjoy being idle.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 10 2009, 08:07 PM

Moorish, thanks for sharing. I can conclusively say that most of us would have struggled if we were in your position and I do not think you have any reason to feel bad. You did more than a lot of people would but we all just have to accept that sometimes, we can never do enough. I cannot say that I would have been as strong as you.

I understand more than ever why you think money is crucial, I've always agreed that it is. I know the cost of medical care these days for I was in insurance for 3 years. If anything I thought that this experience would drive you to wanting a good career so that you need not rely on anyone else. You are now married to someone who can provide in the event of similar occurences but if you ask me, the only person we can really trust and rely upon is ourselves.

Let's look at a hypothetical situation. Woman who has no means of supporting herself has a sick father. Husband is able to cover the medical costs. Now, you said yourself that you felt like giving up on him so many times, and he was your own father. How much do you reckon someone who isn't even related to him can take? At some point, it will become too much of a burden even for him. I'm not suggesting all men are like that but why leave it to chance?

Situations like yours affect us in different ways. I would have thought the natural response would be to make your own money so you needn't rely on someone else. Maybe your response was to want to take care of your kid, in the way you took care of your dad. Maybe you feel you need to make up for something. Neither is right, and neither is wrong. In the end, we are all motivated to do things by different reasons. You've shared yours.

Once again, thanks for sharing. I'm truly sorry to hear about what you had to go through. Also, I don't think you need to feel bad about your dad. You did everything you could as far as I'm concerned.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 10 2009, 09:29 PM

What? in reference to the long wall of text post

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 10 2009, 09:31 PM

Or it could be that you are one of many who come in without following actual events, and have formed this opinion based on an assumption. Not uncommon. Insecure? Hardly.

If you have nothing to contribute, why bother?

Yeah ok grandpa. Sit back and enjoy the show then.

It's always an honour when a superior being graces you with his presence

I've just only recently joined a big corporate. Even then they don't advocate power suits and ties, but I get what you mean. Prior to this I've worked for smaller companies with a staff size of less than 10. Prior to that I sold insurance door to door. Those of you who work will notice the occasional pesky insurance agent at the doorstep of your office asking for an opportunity to share a new product with you. Well it may have been me. Why did I decide to sell door to door when I'm a graduate? I thought my motivation was money, but in fact, I wanted job satisfaction, status and recognition more. I'm hoping these three goals will lead me to a treasure chest of course. With some people, it is the other way around. They want money because with it, comes status, recognition, etc.

My point is, I know what jobs are being offered. When I sold insurance, the agencies I worked with consisted of mainly women and I tell ya, they made a lot of money. If you feel that men or women are limited by what's being offered, I can tell you right now that you can create your own opportunities. These days, opportunities that weren't available before are open to women. There may still be discrimination on some countries like Japan or the Middle East, but mostly, it's there for the taking. Women just need to learn not to limit themselves by making excuses.



I'm not going to go down this road because the argument would be based purely on assumptions. I don't have statistics to prove otherwise, I only speak from experience.

All hierarchy's are structured like a pyramid. You are saying that people have to reach the top to live a comfortable life. I don't agree. People have different definitions of how much is enough and most people are content to stay at a certain level because the higher you climb, the more you have on your shoulders so we try to strike a balance. Not everyone aims to be CEO. My boss for example is content to stay where he is now and he rakes home a 5 figure salary.

You ask how many are driven? Well, I can tell you that it's no different with men. I'm not going to use Jusco as an example because that limits the scope of our discussion to a sector that doesn't pay well unless you are part of management. What you've just described is a scenario that every working person is faced with, both men and women. Where I work, there is a fair number of lady bosses. Heck the boss of my boss is a lady and she works harder than almost anyone I know. The way I see it then, a fair number are. What drives them on the other hand, I'm not going to guess. It isn't about how many women want successful careers. It's the fact that women are starting to see that they have opportunities now, and like I said, more and more will continue to want what was traditionally a piece of the pie served only to men.



No different for men. I'm not saying that the majority of women who work, have high career expectations. I'm saying that with the success stories of women I mentioned earlier, more and more will want to emulate them. We all have role models in life, whether it be our parents or someone else. With more and more women attaining success these days, the pool of role models for women have widended.



Money makes money regardless of what gender you are, that's a given. It's also who you know or rather, who knows you. I agree with all of this however I'd also like to think that there are women who earned it on their own. My aunt is one of them. She left school to become a secretary after form 5 to work in a PR firm. She loved her job and years later today, she owns her own firm and makes a really good living. I should know as I sold her an insurance policy back in the day and I'm one of the beneficiaries She didn't know anyone. All her connections were made through her own initiatives. You won't hear of her or read about her, but it just comes to show that there are success stories we may not have heard of.



Same for men.

I think that women are becoming more empowered. This effectively means more competition for men in the workforce. I mean how many men can accept having a more successful wife? Given a choice, you reckon men would rather their wives stay home so as to not put a dent in their egos? I don't disagree that some women work because they have to help make ends meet. I also however realise that more women work because they want more out of life. Your husband can earn mega bucks but by earning yourself, you increase your combined income. It also gives you a sense of independance, spending money you earned on your own. You also grow in confidence and need no longer be submissive because like it or not, men tend to have more control over you when they are the sole income providers. A lot of the benefits from having a successful career are intangible and it's something money cannot buy. I can't pay to feel what it's like to have executed a project succesfully. I can't buy respect because to me, respect is earned, not given.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting all that. Not all men want that either which is why you have losers who mooch of their parents well into adulthood. I just don't want women to limit themselves in what they perceive to be a man's world. Also, natural instinct or whatever aside, I think it's best not to be dependant on another because I buy into the saying, " if you want things to be done right, do it yourself". This is what drives me in my career and if my future wife benefits from it, so be it.

That is your perogative. I would like to coin the following phrase to whoever I meet. "Shoot for the moon and if you miss, you will still land amongst the stars". Could be something to do with the way I was programmed during my insurance days but aside from learning I didn't like that job, the training helped spur me towards greater things. It made me realise that the only people who can limit us, is ourselves. People tend to fear having big dreams because they don't know if they have it in them to push the envelope, or they focus too much on the possibility of failing. Success in life to me however is not about how many times you fall down, it's about how many times you get back up. We all come from different backgrounds and some have an advantage over others but life isn't about being dealt a good hand of cards, it's about how well you play with the hand dealt to you. There may only be a select few that attain a high level of success but who choose to focus on those that don't? Why tell yourself you don't have a chance before you tried?

I'm not a parent and I don't claim to understand what it's like to be one. All I know is that when I have a kid, be it a son or a daughter, I'd want them to have big dreams and then do my best to ensure they are on the right path of realising them. It may be hard but nothing worth doing comes easy. I'd much rather they try and fail, then end up asking if they could have done more but that's just me. I'd rather teach my kids to learn to accept disappointment and learn from it, rather than to fear failure.

Don't think that's a fair comment based on what you said above.



I agree with most of the things you said. I was once pressured into wanting to get married what with all my friends tying the knot one by one. Can't remember how many weddings I've been to in the last 3 years. The thing about fairy tales is that it ends at the wedding ceremony and then you see the caption, "happily ever after". The reality however isn't as blissful. When the fairy tale is over and reality sets in, the marriage is really tested. Some fail the test and drift apart but for those that pass, the bond gets stronger. I may not be married but I do understand quite a bit from observing and talking to close friends.

Having said all that however, I still don't think that people should accept the realities of others. Just because the proportion of people who find their soulmates are low, it deosn't mean you should give up your dream. Just know that it won't fall into your lap. You'll have to work hard at it an prepare yourself for the possibility that it may not be enough.

If I can summarise my whole post, I think the message would be that you draw your own limits. You decide how much you can get out of life. Some want more and some want less. How much do you want?

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Oct 11 2009, 12:14 PM

Someone give Matlock a medal.