Talking about bank loan, based on conversation with one bank manager from PBB who is awared of this industry, the bank will only provide up to 70%(if remember correctly) of the land valuation price. Bank will not loan a single cent on the building cost. In another word building cost all by cash only.

Can understand why. Putting ownself under the bank's shoes, the only thing valuable to the bank is the land. The building made of concrete, rebar, wooden plank etc of zero value to the bank. The bank is not going to take the risk of fail farms in the middle of no where. All risk is bore by the farmers. Banks are smart. They are in all win-win position. If you success, they win. If you fail, they still win as land acquired only 70% of the cost. Farmers go eat bananas.

If the gomen is smart, they should go study how many % of the nest in the market contributed from the shop houses compare to farm land. Not surprise 80:20. If any change in ruling to strike out shophouses, you are taking about 0:20 ie hundreds of millions may be billion gone down the drain because one silly error on the paper. Dont play play.

Should learn from one relative, buy one particular bank share, multi million by now.

Hi Chitchai,

Always good to hear the news from the other site, be it from Indo or Thai as all are one big family in the globalised world, no longer masters and slaves mentality like in the country.

Anyway, based on the feedback from our investigation team, after many months of deep research & investigation on behaviour of siwftlets at night as you mentioned making a lot of noise even at 3am, just like to let you know the CONCLUSION.

..
..
..
..
..

Reseach shown that the swiftlets are SNORING out loud at 3 am. ... zzz

LOL, hope make your day.

Waa, Mukah news finally hit Malaysiakini. Going to spread like wild fire. Hope will burn down the cronies and associations.

http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/105408

When the war going to end? Think farmers will fight till the end cause it is their life line.

Either you die or I die.

1500 against 1?


This post has been edited by Bobby C: May 29 2009, 05:28 PM

Think we should leave Singapore, HK, Taiwan out of the letter as we are generations behind. Some party might take it emotional and get offended.

Better word it 'bagaimana hendak bersaing dengan negara-negara jiran seperti Thailand, Indo, Vietnam, Cambodia atau Myanmar '.

Thanks CK for being truthful. Sometimes people just like to hear all good things. Many who play stocks also mostly will only tell their success stories. Not easy to say I own so and so many fail farms compare to say I own one and only farm produce so and so many kgs. Till todate wonder any official survey showing the risk of the industry. Out of 100 invertors how many actually make money, breakeven or loss money. This might mislead the authorities to think since it is so easy to make money than you guys have made enough to move out. You can make the same anyway after move out of the town etc.

This is to also safeguard millions/billions unnecessary spending by bumi banks as if money can fall from sky before locality and detailed studies being done by the investors.

Anyway just my half cent.

Thanks guys for all the hardworks.

Another half cent input.

Do agree window and DK (to certain extend) create noise issue. Why DK to certain extend?

Answer: Many times depend how the sound travels. How many feet away your DK from your building edge. If DK directly in front/at the edge of building it will be no different from window entry.

If DK locate >20 ft away from building edge (consider flat roof top) like staircase DK at the roof top that will be another story. Noise and asthetic issue can easily be resolved. Concrete DK can solve noise issue easier compare to zink DK as sound can be contain in certain direction. Whereas zink type sound wave blast thru all direction 360 degree.

Therefore town planning dept can contribute many guildlines how to treat DK rather than just one word NO without considering many other options / alternatives.

Window type cant think of any option to solve sound and asthetic. Any good suggestion. Window curtain etc?!

Know some creative guys just open normal window. Sound only turn on at certain time at certain angle. From outside cannot even differential BH or normal house. But again if too many birds then will be eye catching and invite more complaint.

Why consider DK to certain extend? Asthetic and sound can be resolved. Open roof depend how you do also. Made it like an airwell or broken roof ie asthetically not acceptable. Reason for requesting for consideration for DK to certain extend is security is the main headache for a say 2-storey linked shophouses doing open roof. May be some security experts share view.

Agree, bullet holes, cannon holes all must go. These are all asthetic problems which can be solved prior plan / photos submission for license approval. Asthetic issues can always be resolved, failure which license can be withheld/withdrawn. That's reason why town planning approval/input is important how to treat or hide the DK. Architects are good in doing these job. Simplest way is to say all DK must go but there are alternatives which solve asthetic issues and also improve(not full prove) security issue. Window hole can also improve but no way to solve sound issue unless no tweeters allow for window. Tweeters only allow for open roof or DK with council approval etc.

Sound is the most tricky part. You can comply to 40db today tomorrow after getting approval full blast 100db, complaint next week, tuned down full blast again next mth.

With licence registered BHs, council get down the owners handphones/house phones/office phones full blast their phones if owner refuse to comply. Failure which letter of warning 1, 2 and last 3 warning letter closure/suspension like traffic offence. So council can take note/keep track/identify some of the blacklisted BHs and mostly good ones (assuming all with licenses in future) and take necessary action.

Hey, rather than saying all harams, giving license actually help the councils to keep track and control BHs in town.

Just some half cent opinions.

Thought Johor is MCA strong hold. All should look for CSL for help. The previous Housing Minister Ong Kar Chuan also officially said on newspaper few months back that BH in shop lots was allowed. They cannot simply change the law once minister stepped down.

How to encourage investors if rule and regulation keep changing? No wonder foreign investors stay away from this nation. Overnight frozen of CLOB shares in Spore nearly 10 yrs back caught many foreign investors by surprise and avoid investing this country ever since.

Big time foreign investing arm like Templeton Asset Management in the interview never even mentioned a single word abt Msia except Thai, Indo and Vietnam etc. Why, why? You and I know.

Never learn from past experience.

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Jun 26 2009, 10:52 AM

Some of the points in reply to the working paper:-

i. Claim of unmanned BHs potential cause of short circuit and fire.
Ans:- Short circuits can happen any where not just BHs. If the claim was true, many unmanned warehouses, substation etc would have caught fire and burnt down.

Solution to prevent short circuit is to install earth leakage circuit breaker (ELCB) and miniature circuit breaker (MCB). Fauty circuit either phase to phase or phase to earth can be cut off immediately upon detection.

ii. % of unoccupied office/shop/upper floor in Johor based on Rehda/ERA... reports. BHs in town actually help many landlords to recover from their financial losses since the last financial crisis. Property boom experience in many towns around the country since 2005 was mainly due to this new found industry. Property price in some abandoned projects in country has risen double since the discovery of this new found industry. Town councils in fact would be benifitted from this industry through licensing and assessment fees.

iii. Swiftlets are actually natural habitants of the towns in Peninsular/Sabah/Sarawak prior to discovery of its value. Breeders are only capitalised on what already in existence in the towns ie swiftlets and empty shoplots/ untenanted upper stories to invite the birds to stay. In fact many successful BHs actually discovered by accident by the owners/developered prior to demolition. Swiftlets flew in naturally and breed in these abandoned houses. Government should encourage fellow Malaysians to explore this new found industry right at their door step/kampungs without the need to spend another tens or hundreds of billions to develop Ecopark.

iv. Based on the paper, number of registered premises in Johor around 1918. If only 20% of the BHs in Johor managed to obtain council's license, total number of BHs in Johor should be around 10,000.

If another new 10,000 BHs to be constructed at the Ecopark in replacement of the existing with average cost per unit around RM400,000.00, this will sum up to additional investment of FOUR BILLION RINGGIT RM equivalent to PFKZ current losses!

v. BH industry is considered a high risk industry with probability of failure of 75-80% based on figure obtain from the market. If 4 BILLION RINGGIT RM to be invested in the state of Johor alone for Ecopark with the risk of failure of 75-80%, this figure alone tell us this is not a viable investment. With 75-80% of the property in Ecopark fail to recover from the investment, this potentially turn the Ecopark to another abandoned project similar to many areas in the country like Bukit Beruntung/Lembah Berdingin/Nilai....(quote the ones in Johor).

vi. Many breeders in towns are currently looking for buyers due to slow growth. Property in town in fact is much lesser risk as ground level can be rented out to pay for the bank loan. Security wise it is much safer than Ecopark and farm land. The fact is bank would not give out any loan for construction of BH in farm land explains the banks aware of the high risk their are exposed to as standalone building in the middle of no where like Ecopark or farm land of no value to the bank.

vii. Ecopark in Manjung is the best business model to rebuke Ecopark. Anyone has any update in Manjung?

Anyway, just my half cent hope can be of good use. Feel free to edit.

Thks guys, didnt know half cent also got some value ... hehe.

Too busy to earn a living no time to do detailed study on the old property reports. If we can find the reported figures in Johor may be can help to substantial our claim.

Anyway for brain storming purposes just throw out any idea. Forumers feel free to debate, discuss and direct if idea doesnt make sense.

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?f...3055&sec=nation

Shorter hotels keep Penang on Unesco list

KUALA LUMPUR: The United Nations cultural agency will keep the capital of Malaysia's resort island of Penang on its list of World Heritage Sites after government officials agreed not to allow high-rise hotels......blah blah.

Remember few months back there was this World Heritage issue that affected breeders in Penang and Melaka.

Based on latest The Star report, understand it was the proposal of high-rise hotels that affect World Heritage status and not BHs. Wonder how this World Heritage issue came about? United Nations cultural agency didnt say Penang will loss its listing on World Heritage due to BHs in town. Which gomen agency that make big hoohaa about the whole thing?

Most importantly breeders have to keep the building intact, or at least maintain the facade, paint it to make it more presentable, or hide the DK if any at the backlane rather than shop front etc.

If building high rise hotels was not allowed in town, council should allow bird hotel instead which might be even more profitable. How to maintain the facade of the building if the owners got no money to roll?

Guess after round and round of discussion in the forum, major complaints about BH in towns are Noise and Ugly Facade/DK/cannon holes.

If all breeders/associations can co-orporate and kill these two issues, guess we would have won half battle.

Unfortunately some or many black sheeps start blasting again once notice small glimpse of light at the end of tunnel.

Many times, don't blame the councils/authorities for being harsh; it is we the breeders who should take the blame for being insensitive and harsh to our neighbors. Authorities got no choice after receiving complaints after complaints else they will be seen as not doing their job.

Guess we should think how to help the authorities to help ourselves. End of the day it is the breeders who break own rice bowls.

Same boat but two different characters, Ong Kar Chuan said perfectly ok for shoplots and now this guy Ng Si Chong (Clock Ng?) said not ok. Who is this Ng to call the shot?

There are always white cats and black cats, some grey ones too pending on situation.

Still got my respect for Chua SL and Ong KT(d bro) no matter what people said abt them. Unfortunately majority from the predecessor era are turning the association to Malaysian Chick... Asso. Younger generation like us kind of losing respect for the crooked party. The way it goes think it will get kicked out soon starts from Johor and Sawak.

We want to change ... ayam berkokok.

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Jul 8 2009, 10:13 AM

Went over to Penang last week and met one famous consultant.

Understand there is a new federal law coming out forbid bird hotel in towns and now associations fighting against it.

Wonder anyone hear anything about this?

Noted quite a few bhs selling in the market, some below market value, one in my hometown 600 nests 520k something like that. It is some people aready got the news?

Penang seems to face a lot of harassment though your building facade well maintained and painted, sound well tune etc. Only 11 licenses issued so far. Many tried to applied but too much red tapes, bring you merry-go-round all because of one thing, $$.

Head saying something, tail does not follow order, in a way trying to sabotage the state.

Noted many trees blocking road signs from town to airport. Working level trying to sabotage state gomen?

Anyway, not trying to create big hoohaa here or press panic button. Will fight when necessary to fight.

Info above might not be accurate as all hearing from people talking but no evidence to substantiate.

600 nests 2 sty for 520k in my place in Perak sold pretty fast.

By the time I got back less than 2-3 wks later already sold. Told the broke like that seller must be lossing like wat. Broker said where got losing, market now where got 1k per nest and didnt elaborate further.

Just wonder whether any udang dibalik batu or any wind blowing.

Not to panic everyone.

Based on simple calculation above, whoever sitting at the high chair in aircon room reading this must know or at least care for the rakyat to try to understand the risk that investors are exposed to in this industry.

Property value of merely 300k selling at 680k with nests of course. 400-430k by cash! Bank will only loan 250-280k based on bank evaluation purely on the property value.

Did you see the risk that investors are exposed to in the event anything happened by a stroke of a pen or anything happen to the property due to unforseen circumstances?

People whole family heads are on the chopping board if beloved government making sudden u-turn.

Hope and pray that our beloved new PM awares what happen at ground zero, and not mislead and disillusion by false reporting thinking money can still drop from the sky by simply relocating the bhs.


This post has been edited by Bobby C: Jul 14 2009, 04:29 PM

This e-book thingy is scary. Money do drop from the net instead of sky to the authors.

From personal experience, for newbie with 0 knowledge of this industry, Dr Chris and Crystal book are ok for quick basic knowledge to start out. At least got some pics and summarized some basic terms you need to know when people talk abt bhs. If you are desperate for quick info within a few day, they are ok, save you few weeks reading thru the forum/blogs which might end up with more questions. But the cost of those books are on the high side, worth probably less but you are the consumer so you decide.

If I can find bird king that can guarantee 100% success with knowledge given, dont mind to pay to the nose. But again, how many or if there is such thing as bird kings in the market?!

H**** K** ebook not worth $50, $5 may be for donation, up to individual. Hey, David Lim ebook is free! Grab it and read before asking more questions.

Pak Hendri Mulia book is for more advance stage summarised what you need to know, some reference from Nugroho, make life easy for quick reference.

Nugroho books are for advance stage but too many version 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,..., some info keep repeating itself so need to buy the right ones. Sometimes cant remember where you read it, some where out there. It's good if Nugroho can summarise into one and only power book, but then ..

Anyway, nothing is free. Knowledge is power. Zero knowledge resulted kena con by con-sultant. So upto individual to decide. Whether want to be penny wise pound foolish. Saw many esp one kept repeating with big bold letters in chinese blog asking for free info. Boy oh boy, ....

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Jul 20 2009, 04:22 PM

Tang,

No choice lah bro, tats university of hard knock. You are not the only one. Majority of us facing the same problem. But think many sifus here kind enough to giving enough warnings or advices how to identify consultants and con-insultants, how to avoid kena knock, where to find the infos and stuff, thats very good for individual to find own initiative to read up first to acquire more knowledge before diving.

Not referring to you but many newbies prefer to spoon fed, prefer instant answer and free like instant noodles etc.

As the industry still in its infancy, many issues/methods still evolving, practice today might not be the best or the same tomorrow. Eg. until today many sifus still arguing good and bad of having corner plank. Old timer heavenly sifu prefer box type of plank but 4 yr old sifu come and tell you no no straight plant is better tats old design else you regret .. blah blah, think think also make sense cause in future you will have too many corner nests etc ... So who is right old bird or not so old bird?!

Another eg chicken humifier vs Osim humifier. Chicken humifier is noisy but rugged. Osim humifier is quiet but how long can it last and price?...

Another eg is swiming pool at roof top. Some swiftlet sifus love this design but if you look at another angle from those old bird in construction industry they will say no no. Having nightmare water licking problem based on experience from construction of basement carpark with high water table locality etc. Waterproofing vendor only guarantee no licking for 5-10 yr thereafter you guarantee yourself blah blah. Its that long term solution or long term problem?

In short, many ways to skin a cat, no hard and fast rule.

Anyway, tats my half cent as 1 & 1/2 yr old bird.. hehe.

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Jul 21 2009, 01:04 PM

Seems like:-

Want to pay $100 per kg tax also difficult.

Want to walk straight also difficult.

Want to legalise the whole process also difficult.

They prefer you to break the law so can cari makan.

Bureacratic red tapes killing this industry. Opss, not only this industry, many many industries also facing the same headache lah.

Tat's why the other day fishmongers all on strike caused some smart alex forcing them to replace all ice storage boxes with inferior quality ones from one vendor.

This kind of low class game is getting more common lah nowadays, thats what many foreign investors moving out. Met one Taiwanese invertor couple of yrs back #@&*! packing his bag, closing down factory and moving out for good.

Oh well, does any one care?

Hope our beloved PM aware with the advise from his bro in corporate sector and do something to stop bureacratic red tapes in the civil service!

The country will flourish if he can successfully stop all these nonsenses!

Think Pak Hen seminar for more advance stage for older birds.

For those newbies who are too lazy to read up Dr Chris seminar quite ok to learn ABC first.

Anyone attended NT seminars? Being receiving a lot of sms on seminars here and there. Some expert with 40 yrs experience giving speech, wow, heavenly sifu. So many smses nearly every 2 wks. Sounds like mega sales.

Khairil Sani Wong sounds like a cina muslim.

Apologise for saying so but there are few cina becoming muslim for the sake of getting advantage from the system.

Putting political and racial differences aside, Beng Hock case is a real tragedy that all Malaysians should voice up. There are many BH case in the past and sure there will be many BH in the future but what touches us most is this young man looking forward for a brighter future the next day calling up merely as witness but ended up dead for no reason.

But how many among us got involved or care for this issue where innocence life just robbed away like this. Among 100 probably less than 3 interested to voice up or attend the memorial based on the response that we got. Where are the rest?

Glad that among 3000 that attended BH memorial last wk, quite few malays and indian bro. But majority chinese sleeping care for their own business only. May be counting money lah, tat's what they are more interested.

Hey, go tell your frens MU coming to town or MJ memorial at Stadium Merdeka just see how many chinese santa clauses will come.

Sorry off topic. Quite piss with what I see. Better look at birds to relax a bit.

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Jul 31 2009, 06:16 PM

Malaysiakini report in reply to WW article. Sad but true(except the droppings). Guess end of the day, selfish breeders are the one sabotaging own and the rest of our rice bowls.




'Bird motels' boom sparks protests
Aug 6, 09 10:56am, Malaysiakini

Thousands of bird 'motels' have opened across Malaysia to lure the swiftlets whose nests are harvested to make bird's nest soup, a costly delicacy in Chinese cuisine.


But as the business booms and flocks of swiftlets - who make the nests out of their saliva - descend on towns and villages, the noisy, messy practice has triggered a wave of protest.

In the heart of the coastal town of Klang, the owner of the Goldcourse Hotel has converted part of the multi-storey building into a swiftlet "motel".

To entice the swiflets to build their nests in their concrete home - and not their natural cave habitat - from sun-up to sun-down a soundtrack of shrill bird noises including mating calls is blasted from speakers.

Nearby, other entrepreneurs have opened competing ventures by turning four-storey shophouses into bird havens, and the cacophony and shower of bird droppings is alienating those living and working nearby.

"The sound is so loud and irritating, and the bird droppings can be harmful to our health," said local resident Abdul Hamid Abdullah as he watched the swiflets dart in and out of the buildings.

"These birds build their nests in caves. That is where they should be," the 46-year-old told AFP.

A RM20 billion industry


Malaysia's swiftlet industry began in the 1980s but gained momentum after the 1997 Asian financial crisis when entrepreneurs converted the interiors of abandoned properties into bird motels.

Fans of the gelatinous soup, which is popular in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan, say it can stave off ageing, boost sex drive, prevent lung disease and enhance the complexion.

A kilogram of the small, cup-shaped nests can fetch RM4,000, and the combination of big profits and a lack of legislation has seen countless swiftlet "farms" established illegally in populated areas.

Kenneth Khoo, from the Small and Medium Industries Association in Penang, told AFP that the global trade in raw bird's nests was estimated at RM20 billion.


"Swiftlet farming in Malaysia is a sunrise industry. Demand far exceeds supply as more wealthy Chinese emerge," he said, adding that bird's nest soup remains a status-booster on business menus in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Khoo said Indonesia controls up to 70 percent of the business in the region, sourcing its bird's nests from both caves and farms, while the other two main producers are Thailand and Malaysia.

He estimated that there are at least 35,000 swiftlet farms in Malaysia, only about 4,500 with legal permits, in a business worth RM800 million to RM1.2 billion.

Call for ban of swiftlets farming

But as the industry expands along the east and west coasts of peninsular Malaysia, opposition to the swiftlet farms is growing louder and environmentalists are demanding a complete ban.

There are also allegations of cruelty as some "farmers" reputedly destroy chicks and fertilised eggs in order to harvest the nests at times when prices are high.

Conservation group Friends of the Earth has condemned the trade and called on the government to close down the proliferating swiftlet farms.


"This rather impetuous booming industry has led to complaints from the public due to the nuisance, health hazards and the number of bird hotels coming up," said Mohamad Idris, president of the group's Malaysian branch.

"Collectors may not wait long enough for the young to fledge, often throwing the chicks onto the ground or leaving them to die after taking the nests," he said.

"In view of the problems faced by many in the farming of swiftlets and from the welfare point of view of the birds, we would like to call for a ban on all farming of swiftlets."