That's a good idea. Rinie still can play one cause his game is on the list. Champion lagi lah this year..

Takde fifa tak best! Starcraft Starcraft Starcraft

Other RTS games should prove themselves first. DotA deserves more place in WCG than RA3 or any other non Blizzard RTS. Why? Because they have strong player base and was built from ground up. The community itself is enough to sustain the game popularity for a long time. DotA deserves a place among the elite competitive gaming titles.

Anyone who thinks DotA takes no skill should go to KLCC and jump from the highest floor(Almost did that because i used to think that way, but decided to become open-minded and look from diff. perspective). Even the lowest level of competitive DotA are very different from pub game you "casualtard DotA-basher" play. If everyone cares about mechanics/technics so much why not just dump any RTS you played for Starcraft. See the hypocrisy there?

WCG always did this same mistake over and over again. Put any new game into the game list as long as they get the money. Most of the game of course turn out to be a fad. That's why e-sports never progress beyond South Korea. The funny thingy is many people think South Korea is 10 years behind with Starcraft when they are actually 10 years ahead.

In reality WCG is always cheap, they have no prestige anymore.


Because Starcraft as e-sports is not a fad.

Time for paradigm shift perhaps? Try to look from other community perspective. From where you stand right now, i doubt you can understand South Korean obsession with Starcraft. I used to think that Winning Eleven is the shit, but not anymore. In fact, WE doesn't deserve a place in e-sports imo. So does racing games. Why sould i watch FIFA or NFS when i can watch the real one?

At least South Korea used to have FIFA on TV.

i feel even worse, i ALREADY bought the g25 oh well, at least the with the new cpu i can now play GRiD, so its not a total loss.

well, i'm looking forward to TMNF, its a fav of mine, as long as the tracks make sense, and arent those super screwed up acrobat fests that a lot of custom tracks tend to be. they should be releasing a track pack like what ESWC did yeah?

nothing makes sense in trackmania
or its not trackmania at all

So does an obsession of a country towards a certain games makes it eligible to include in the game list? What about the obsession of the whole world towards other games? I know there are more people who play DOTA than Starcraft doesnt matter if Starcraft is a better game or not.

DOTA might be popular but the truth is it is a soon to die community as well. We can see that there isnt any new faces in tournaments. Its always the same old same old person. Its going through the same phase as CS at the moment. More people play DOTA as casual. But when it comes to tourney, its still the same face.

We dont have to understand anything bcoz there is ntg to be understandable when it comes to game selection by WCG. If their choices are meant to be done to ensure their survivability at this current moment then go ahead.

The fact is out of a few other international tournament, WCG is the only current surviving and i might as well add successful until now. Their decision might not be popular but its the right decision to ensure their survivability.

But wat i can see WCG taken a bold step to try to be a more all rounded tournament with consoles and mobile games added, not to mention unpopular games selection especially to us in Malaysia.

I saw the initiative, but either it will pay off or not will be another story.

I was going to reply with some argument until i saw this. e-Sports outside south Korea is stagnant, if you want to believe otherwise its up to you. WCG still survives because its supported by the largest chaebol in South Korea which revenue is the same as our country GDP.

Samsung are not all about electronics you know, one of Petronas twin tower, Taipei 101 and the one in Dubai were built by them. They are also the 2nd largest shipbuilding company in the world. Thats why WCG survives.

Sounds ignorant to me. Understanding Korean success in e-sports is the key to future success of e-sports. South Korea has laid blueprint and example for us to follow. We need to learn how Starcraft became the most watchable sports in Korea, far surpassing their baseball league and K-League. That's why we learn history in school isn't it? So that we can learn from our past mistakes and lay foundation for future success.

This post has been edited by RtP|DEV: Apr 17 2009, 02:56 AM

Before we go somewhere else, this is about WCG choices of games. This is in regards to popularity of games in other parts of world vs popularity of games in Korea alone. It doesnt make sense when its a so call international event when the games chosen was not reflected fairly.

To me, its either they dont have a sense of what games is played out of Korea or they are trying to survive. If it was the 1st option, then they really play too much of Starcraft.

Though Samsung is their main sponsor, without the support of other games developer they still wont survive until now. EA,Blizzard and other sponsors should b given credit as well.

But judging from their wide array of games at the moment on diff platform, its maybe a sign they are struggling to get sponsorship. Therefore they tried a diff approach to get more resources from other platforms dev.

Is WCG to be blame for the reason of stagnant e-sports outside of Korea? I dont think that is fair as well.

And also how did u measure e-sports in Korea as growing where else in other country such as Germany and China as stagnant?As far as i know Euro particularly Germany has a strong FIFA based community where else China had followers in wide array of games.It took Germany 1 week to just finish qualification for FIFA alone and states qualifier all around China with more than 100++ participants.

Can u tell me which country that participate in WCG but didnt get affected by WCG? Do u think it is WCG job to nag all the other country gov to bring up e-sports? I can say if WCG didnt come to Malaysia, u, me and others wont hv this community atm.

And remember, a part of why Starcraft and WCG is successful is also because of gov economic policy during the eco crisis in late 90's. If there were no recession and Korea was not affected by the eco downturn, Starcraft wont grow far as it is rite now.

But out of topic u seems to know a lot about Korea and Starcraft. Can u lay down to us their blueprints so tht we can follow?

Can u explain to all of us how did Starcraft grew in the 1st place and bcame how big it is until today? Since mayb u learn about history thus noe more abt this.



It would b great to share this knowledge.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...?topic_id=81718

a good article to read.

im totally sad with the choices of the games selected. never heard of most of them lol. wcg rating is going down again gg no re

Sorry for you bro. Siapa suruh beli awal2...

That's my point exactly. WCG should include games based on merit.
I think "you feel threatened because i mentioned FIFA doesn't deserve a spot" or "my England is so bad" that it caused misunderstanding.

You can read the rest from the link provided by Jabenja.

Then read this link also,
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...?topic_id=90664


Fakesteve for the win. Trust me, the day i got to know CGS, i already predicted its demise. The biggest fad in gaming history.

There are lots of people who stop playing the game but follow the pro-scene(like me), i haven't touch the game for 7 month, yet still have close connection to the game. Do you think most 40 years old who watch football still play football? Do we have to become Ronaldinho to enjoy football? I don't have to be a Korean pro or even B+/A- players to enjoy Starcraft. I don't have to play this game to experience Starcraft.

Starcraft transcends the game and becomes sport. I think this is what WCG originally want to achieve when they made the slogan "Beyond the Game".


I think its not stagnant, but declining actually.

For FIFA, your number means nothing. FIFA has more players because the game is easy for scrubs to access. Those who play Starcraft understand the hierarchy of skill level. The game-depth and skill gap is frightening but beautiful at the same time. The best in Starcraft world stands far above higher echelon of any other competitve games.

USA, China, Russia, Germany, Poland and Canada are the strongest Starcraft nation outside Korea. Except China, Starcraft community in those countries far exceed the number of their Warcraft 3 community, let alone any other RTS combined. Yes even outside Korea, Starcraft is bigger than motherf***ing CNC3 and RA3 players combined, period. We survived outside of Korea without any major tournaments beside WCG.

The reason Korea always win gold in Starcraft is because of their balls are made of diamond, their skill is not of this world. They have this awesome Winners League and Starleague. Imagine this, EPL is the only professional football league in the world, but everyone in the world still play football. The result is most player that play in the league dominates the game. Simple truth, not because we don't have any players.

Starcraft deserves more recognition outside Korea because of its player base. But Intel, AMD and Nvidia are such a fag, they don't think sponsoring SC tourney would do any good to them. No one would buy a new proc or GC for Starcraft, they can't see those who play Starcraft also play latest games. Competitive scene outside Korea is so corrupted beyond words.

They are made of fail.

If we do not exist outside Korea, how can this happen?
http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...93&hl=starcraft

This post has been edited by RtP|DEV: Apr 17 2009, 10:46 AM

I think my england is far more worst. From my 1st post until now its all about the choices of games and got nothing to do with either a game deserve to be in e-sports or not.

And i think ur the one who felt threatened about starcraft where else my 1st post was just a joke. No matter how big a game community is they will pick base on the monetary value, not the quality of the games.

My conclusion with all my earlier post is WCG has chosen game not just bcoz of its popularity, but its also to make sure its survivability as well. But u just cant accept the fact that they chose Starcraft not just bcoz of the fanatic fan base but bcoz they need money to sustain. Though u mention Samsung help build Petronas Twin Towers but they are still short of money to support WCG.

If they didnt earn anything putting up a game then they wont put. If they wont earn anything putting up Starcraft they will definitely wont put it up. Their concept is simple.

ESWC included DOTA coz they believe it has good fan base in it but still fail to achieve what WCG has achieved years. Why? Coz WCG has a better and simple business model compare to others. You cant blame WCG entirely bcoz that is wat companies do, profit must be put as priority 1st.

The article from jabenja is bias. All the way it has been bashing WCG but never talk about how ESWC has fail as well. And it denies the fact that all other games beside SC/WC/CS doesnt need skills. Have u ever seen Guitar Hero on a high level? It is one of the best spectators sports i've ever seen watching 2 guys battle out getting the right combination and timing. Even i got hook up by DoA coz watching how cool it is d game when played in high competitive level. The game mechanic is simple but bcoz of that it provides a lot of diff variation in the games thus provide unexpected moves. Just bcoz a game is simple to play doesnt mean its easily mastered.

The level of skills was totally different.

The article is a bias mix of facts which try to point out how sux other game is compare to the 3 games mention above for low skills requirement. U said earlier about how DOTA require skills but now u support this article which contradict ur words earlier as well. Shld u jump from twin tower now?

CGS fail was not entirely bcoz of the selection of the games. It was bcoz of mismanagement. If its management was a top notch it would hv been greater than WCG for sure. It has more than 50 million viewers across the world regardless of certain games popularity.

Again and again, WCG list of games got nothing to do with how big a gaming community is. Its all about the money.

Btw again out of topic u still havent answer my question, can u lay down the blueprint so that we can follow?

Can u exactly mention how did Starcraft and Samsung bcame so big as of now?

Do you believe in change?
Do we just follow the flow? If this continues 10 years from now we have no more competitive gaming.


For the bold part, O rly?

Of course they chose it not based on their popularity. My question is do you agree with their method?

WCG gain nothing with Starcraft, if its not a Korean company there would be no SC. They're businesstard that don't give shit about gaming, but only think of their pocket. Why no SC in ESWC? Blizzard have Bank of WoW.

You know that's the problem for competitive gaming outside Korea, they rely too much on tech company as their sponsors.
In Korea you get some beer sponsoring Starcraft team. Know why?, because outside Korea its not yet a sport, but a gimmick made of such nerd like me and everyone else.

In Korea, even if you play 10 hours per day. It won't guarantee you the place among 300 elite pro-gamers. If anyone can become Maradona easily without giving up everything in their life, then what's so special about them? We don't simply "membabi-buta" call this game sports because we play it, its because we understand it.


Dude i used play WE, i know how Sports Sim is so different than RTS. I used to diss DotA before i knew anything about it, changed my mind after i tried to understand the game. You sir, do you play Starcraft? Try any of the big 3 and read the article for the second time then come back here tell me your opinion.

The winningkaki thread is the living proof that i used to be part of Footy Sim community. One of the best game out there, but they're not cut for e-Sports.


Why do i even bother arguing?
Srsly, you believe every excuse they say?

People still listen more to Linkin Park than Insomnium, even though LP suck balls. 50 million, make that 45 million fags(including me).
To be honest 45 million of them don't feel any excitement when watching the show including me. I feel nothing watching some kids play videogames.
Better play that game myself. Of course me and other 45 million still watch it because its new to us. After 9 years can you still say the same?

But, i feel so much anxiety and my heart beat so much during critical moment in SC game. I smile when my favourite player wins. I curse, and starts to diss all Zerg player when my favourite player lose to them. That is what e-Sports should be. Not some cheap gimmick but purely entertainment. 9 years of greatness, still the excitement never fade.

That's why game selection is important. Only those that meet the criteria should be put into the game list.


Do you even read the date of that article?

Yeah exquisite taste you got there, mainly because its your first time seeing them. Srsly are you really honest? Can you say the same after 1000 hours watching them doing the same shit over and over again? New stuff is always exciting at first. The first time i watch SC player FPview i got orgasm, now not anymore. Its the play that continuously evolving that gave me orgasm.

Assuming the one i saw on CGS on TV is on high level(of course it is, silly me), i'd rather watch gay porn.

Of course if its your teammate or your country you're supporting, even curling can be entertaining.

Why are you so protective of DoA when most people from fighting game community hate it? Do you even click the Tougeki hotlink in the article?
Tougeki is like WCG for fighting game. See DoA in their? Capcom 2D fighter have the most depth gameplay wise according to them. Or could they who actually live by this genre be wrong?


The article(Jabenja one). Re-innovate themselves and follow Korean as a model.
You don't agree with them but still you ask me. Perhaps you want better answer that suits your opinion? Of course my sentiment and most of my Starcraft brothers are still the same.


How do i know how Samsung became so big? Ask them.

For Starcraft. I have to edit the whole article intended for players to make it more comprehensible for non-players.
Why do i even bother doing it when i get this kind of response? Not worth it.


EDIT:
BTW why do we even bother about the big 3, Why don't we discuss which game deserves or should be added into the club of the big 3? There are many game out there that have the quality to be part of big 3 but, often most people overlook it.

As for me Street Fighter 4 and SSBM, why?, because everyone who are in the fighting game community swear by this game.
SSBM have very strong foundation in the US without help of support from mainstream label like WCG and ESWC.

DotA is a must, if we can pick only one game for WCG Malaysia, i'd let go of Starcraft. DotA in Malaysia is serious business. Though they quite fail as spectators sport. Watching DotA can be mental torture, I know it cause I used to stream live DotA tourney between clans in my college.

This post has been edited by RtP|DEV: Apr 17 2009, 01:57 PM

its too long so i dun wish to quote.


Again and again and again, WCG list of games is never about popularity, but either it can give them enough money to profit or survive. Did i say i agree with their method? Im only saying that it is understandable why they did tht.


If you think i only play FIFA, then ur wrong. I play all sorts of games, DOTA,L4D,DoA,CS,COD4,Grid,CnC and many other games including ur beloved Starcraft. Each games has its own uniqueness and it comes down to each preferences. I like to play DOTA, but i dun like to watch it. To say that CS,Starcraft and W3 is beyond the other games is unreasonable bcoz it comes down to diff genre and diff mechanics which each game emphasize on diff concept. If u would love to compare, FIFA is always about fast game compare to WE more simulated style. But no matter what, which game is the best still comes down to preferences.

U may think that CGS doesnt require high set of skills to compete but obviously u didnt understand all the games correctly. But i dun blame u coz the way CGS presented itself was wrong. It wasnt the game and yes it was mismanagement. This is from inside sources not ur fake eco crisis or failure to reach the audience due to game selection.

Now let me tell u the brief history of why Starcraft bcame so popular since its not worth it for u. And i make it very simple.


During the economy crisis in late 90s, Korean gov were in dead shit and have to change their eco policy which they were force by IMF. With no other options and a pretty much bold step, they put their bets on information technology which in that time was still new in Korea. The gov make sure that the internet penetration is high with high speed broadband. Bcoz of the sudden change of eco policy into IT, Samsung was one of the company which highly profit from it. There were no beer company sponsoring any Starcraft player tht time. It only happens in the later stage after the boom.

The gov invest highly in IT until each block in Seoul has at least 1 Internet Shop. At that time Starcraft was popular in Korea already. But bcoz of the sudden change of eco policy, more and more people has more access to computer games and high speed broadband which encourage more head to head play. Not to mention tht most of them leave in apartment and close quarter thus making it easier to hv broadband.

So how did Starcraft manage to get a very big general audience? Korea is a collective society meaning that if ur not following the trend, then ur not in the community a.k.a ur an outsider. If u make a diff haircut,dress differently or do whateva it is differently against wat most people are doing, then ur are not part of the society. If u play other games... then u will jst get bla bla bla by frens. Peer pressure is powerful. Thats how my frens start smoking.

Another reason is due to eco crisis, the entertainment industry also face problem getting good quality entertainment for their audience. So they were force to find some cheap source of entertainment. So how did Starcraft came into pic? I cant remember names of the person involve but one of the producer came up with an idea and said "Hey why dont we put a show, showing 2 people play games on a computer? U just need 2 people, 2 computer and a camera"

And that is wht they did.It was really cheap. But out of their surprise it really get good ratings and they start to work on it to make it as big as it is now.

Yes Starcraft is enjoyable to play. But the game alone wasnt the reason y it bcame the national sports in Korea. It was the above reason that make it happen. There are many factors such as economy policy,gov support,living culture,geography and etc etc.So the choices of game is just part of the puzzles. Either a game is good enuff to b call e-sports or not shouldnt be considered in the 1st place since it is not the only factor. Hence why FIFA is popular in Euro and across the world bcoz Football well is the most popular sports in the world. Either it deserve to be e-sport doesnt comes into mind.

And the Korea gov doesnt have a clue that at tht time Starcraft was popular. Everything was just a coincidence. If the eco crisis had nvr hit Korea i doubt that it will b as big as it is rite now.

Again again and again, the choice of games by WCG got nothing to do with popularity and it has been like tht for years. And yes i stand to my point tht if all of those 3 big taiko games doesnt give profit to WCG, they will drop. Quality doesnt do a shit in their choice.

I dont like it but i understand why. Simple or not for u to understand.

Whoa whoa whoa..relax guys...

That's the trigger to Starcraft/e-Sports in Korea, that i have to admit happened to be an accident. But that alone didn't explain why Starcraft was able to sustain its popularity for so long. If that's the sole reason, then Warcraft 3 should be equally famous in South Korea right now. Even such game as Warcraft didn't last for more than 3 years. Srsly, you cannot explain such thing by presenting one article. You need to study it thoroughly.

For those ignorant people in gaming community, it's easy for them to blame Starcraft or Korean mentality. What they didn't know is its the flaw of Warcraft 3 is the one that made it failed. This is the basis of my claim that CGS will fail(they failed faster than i expected, even if t), because things like this happened in the past. Even if they didn't have mismanagement problem they'll still fail inevitably.

What, peer pressure? From what i read on Daniel Lee's blog entry, he said general population at that time look down on gamers. The same stereotype gamers are nerd that exist in the west also exist in South Korea. Korea is the first that got rid of that streotype though. I'll explain it later when i get enough resource(need to find back everything that i used to read lol).

Daniel Lee currently works as English commentator for GOMTV and former eSTRO coach. He's one of many that's resposible for the rise of Starcraft in Korea. His career spans from XD~Grrrr... manager during the dawn of e-Sports to AMD Dream Team coach. So i trust his credibility. Plus his effort to build a bridge between Korea and the rest of the world is admirable.

EDIT:
"I have to edit the whole article intended for players to make it more comprehensible for non-players."
I seriously mean it when i said this. I have alot of source that need to be put together.

This post has been edited by RtP|DEV: Apr 17 2009, 09:36 PM

yes wht u say is true as well but W3 is diff compare to SC. The gameplay which have heroes and spells isnt really favorable. I think there are a few articles about this in SK Gaming as well. I personally prefer SC than W3 bcoz its more straight forward,head to head no nonsense stuff. But as always this comes down to each preferences.

I think there are few interesting and diff articles about the rise of e-sports in korea. U can google abt it.

But my point is that it wasnt the quality of the game alone that determine if it can b e-sports or not. All factors have to be considered. At 1 time CS was THE game in Malaysia. It has such big pool of gamers but the factors that is needed wasnt present at tht time. The same goes in other countries too. Yes many people play games bcoz they think its a good game, but that is still not enuff to push it to another level.

The way i see it, it takes this 4 basic factor to bring it into another level:


1. Gamers
2. Sponsors
3. Organizers
4. Medias

If u look closely on other e-sports nation almost all of this 4 factors are working in good sync.

Anyway i dun wish to drag on this anymore bcoz from now on its gonna be base on each person pov. But again i stand to my point that the choice of games by WCG for years got nothing to do with popularity and quality, its all about the money.

Its not the correct choice for gamers, but it is understandable why WCG did that... for thts the reason they were able to survive until now.

heyheyhey
war3 didnt phail entirely,
stil got wemadefox M00N ok! =o

Everything starts with the quality of the game, is it too hard to understand? If a game with quality can fail, what made you think crappy or unproven game can succeed? Answer this, did WCG push DOA, CNC3, and DoW to another level? Seems dead to me. But they served their purpose while being in the game list. WCG today is not an Olympic of eSports, but advertisement slots for game publisher. I'm amazed why so many people can't see through this blasphemous marketing ploy.

So, some rich publisher decides to put their newly released game in the list. By doing that they need to pay WCG a huge sum of money. Now, why do you think they want to put their game on the list so much? By doing so they made general gaming scrubs think this game have quality. Usually kids these days are so brainwashed by the media and peer pressure. They can't judge by themselves what's good and whats bad. Another reason is kids these days fail to see game depth and enjoyment of playing video-games. To them, why should they put effort to practice a game, when there's no incentive such as tournament? The real competitive gamers play the game because improving and learning are also part of the fun factor and gaming experience.

So when the game is released, these legion of scrubs ditch "RTS A" which is not on the list and go to newly released "RTS WCG". Reason? like i said above, they're scrubs who actually needs some incentive, or they think they have chance because everyone practically starts at the same level. By this simple yet blasphemous marketing ploy, "RTS WCG" is now branded as a competitive title, despite being a 3 month old game. They didn't need to stay in the gamelist forever, 1 or 2 years is enough because after that people won't buy the game anymore. "The Wheels" and "Kickers" are an exception since "Big Papa" release new version of this game every year. In the end WCG never served its purpose nor pushed competitive gaming to another level. All they did was degrading competitive gaming to the point that competitive gaming become stagnant or worst, on declining state.

These cycles then continue forever until someone who's concerned about the pathetic state of competitive gaming decides to bring this issue to the table.


True these 4 factors are important, except there's no such thing as e-Sports nation outside Korea. If you think they only show Starcraft in Korea, you're wrong. They broadcast shitload of live games on TV. Heck, outside of South Korea these 4 factors never worked in sync. Please elaborate if you don't agree.

And, what's your point exactly? If you see this 4 basic factor as important, then why defend WCG?

Edit:
USA BW players plan to boycott WCG USA 09.
This is no joke. Good example of poor relationship between gamers and organizers. Now can you say they're still working in good sync?

This boycott is proposed by one of US top player, and most top players took side with him. They gave up individual interest for the sake of the game as a whole. If FIFA community and WCG Malaysia have this issue would you and other top FIFA player dare to go through such length? Boycotting means you'll be giving up your chance for free ticket to grand finals. In Malaysia its obvious........ "tak apa, just follow the flow".


Then WCG should cease to exist, since they are not able to serve their purpose anymore. If WCG want to be the next MTV, they can kiss my smelly ass. I have stopped watching MTV years ago, but my music discovery still never ends. It's a proof that we don't need someone to feed bullshit on us. Winning Eleven need no WCG to survive in this country, i still see many tournaments going in this section.

"i stand to my point that the choice of games by WCG for years got nothing to do with popularity and quality, its all about the money."
That's not your point, that's the fact that most people know. I still fail to understand why do you always bring survival of WCG as an excuse.

You think if WCG stop to exist, competitive gaming will follow the same fate. Wrong, and it's not my opinion but fact. If a game cannot survive without WCG, it's because they suck. WCG's job is to push strong existing community to the next level, not produce some gimmick. You don't have to look at Korean organization, just look at how Evo Championship Series and Super Battle Opera:Tougeki did their job. They served their purpose and pushed Fighting Genre to the next level. All WCG did was advertising this crappy game called DOA and became Microsoft favorite b****. Evo and Tougeki didn't even look to this bullcrap called DOA, yet still survives, getting better in quality, increasing in participants and have worldwide influence. They are the heroes of competitive gaming that don't stray from their original purpose.

http://www.tougeki.com/
http://shoryuken.com/
http://evo2k.com/

(Shoryuken)Evo Championship Series forum. As im typing this Shoryuken have the same number of visitors as Lowyat. 3000 people including guest, With more than 1400 registered visitors online . The world is bigger than we actually realized heh..? First Starcraft actually exist outside Korea, and now fighting games are also huge? That's why i said you need paradigm shift when i quote your first post. Even if it's a joke it'll create stereotype among ignorant, since you're one of the gaming elite in this country.

I'm not dragging this to be an Internet Hero. I love competitive gaming and eSports, so it's part of my duty to create awareness among gamers. If its worth discussing, why not?

This post has been edited by RtP|DEV: Apr 19 2009, 02:24 AM

and your main point was?
wcg phaiLed?