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Discussion Debt Laden Clubs To Be Banned From The UCL, About time i'd say.

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TSmadmoz
post Oct 9 2008, 11:19 AM, updated 18y ago

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QUOTE
Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester United could face exclusion from the Champions League - on the grounds that they hold excessive debt - under plans being drawn up by Uefa next week.

The European game's governing body has set up a working group which will meet in Geneva on Monday to discuss how to extend its licensing system and restrict the levels of debt that clubs are permitted to operate with. Currently the financial stipulations in Uefa's system are limited to bans on clubs who have outstanding debts on transfer payments. It also states that staff should be paid on time.

But the proposals being drawn up by Uefa's general secretary, David Taylor, and its president, Michel Platini, would see the system delve far deeper into the financial workings of clubs. "The ultimate sanction is not to be in our competitions," Taylor said yesterday.

He explained that debts fixed against assets, for stadium building, are considered more acceptable than those run up in the acquisition of players or for takeovers. He confirmed that this would affect clubs such as last season's Champions League finalists, United and Chelsea, and one of the semi-finalists, Liverpool, unless they significantly reduced their debts.

"It won't happen this year, it won't happen next year but, yes, that could happen in years to come," he said, speaking at the Leaders in Football conference yesterday, which coincidentally was being held at Stamford Bridge. "Some of us believe it shouldn't be an absolutely free market and we are in favour of controlled regulation. An increasing number of people in football believe we have to do more. There are some excellent examples of those who support the system, and Arsène Wenger is one of the strongest supporters of the need to do more."

It is hardly surprising that the Arsenal manager, who has labelled the trend for clubs to borrow excessively for strengthening as "financial doping", should favour the proposals. But the clubs Taylor was referring to reacted more cautiously, all demanding that they be consulted extensively before the new licensing conditions come into force. "There's been a number of proposals, mostly emanating from Uefa but also from elsewhere, looking at clubs and the amount of debt they have," said Chelsea's chairman, Bruce Buck. "It's really hard to react to those in a vacuum until you see the very specifics of what the proposals are.

"We are willing to sit down with Uefa and talk about not just debt but lots of other things. Companies in this world borrow money - that is a fact of life. I don't think there is anything wrong as a general proposition in football clubs borrowing money. But it has to be in the context of their revenue stream and the rest of their capitalisation."

Although, according to Deloitte, Chelsea have net debts of £620m, a figure derived from their most recent accounts to June 30 2007, Buck refers to the £578m that the owner, Roman Abramovich, has placed in interest-free loans as "softer than soft debt. It's as good as equity".

But United can make no such claims about their complicated structure of borrowings, amounting to £605m according to Deloitte. Although their most punitive debt - preference shares running at double-digit interest rates with hedge funds - is secured against equity belonging to the club's owner, the Glazer family, Uefa's rules would be aimed at reducing the entire debt burden.

United refused to comment yesterday but their position on Uefa's threat was made clear by the chief executive David Gill a few months ago. "The issue with debt is whether you can service it," he said. "It is not about what it is. As far as we are concerned, there is no issue." But Taylor countered: "It is not up to you, if you want to compete in our competitions."

Platini also warned England's clubs yesterday that they were in danger of losing their identity because of the influx of foreign owners into the Premier League. "Do you want in Liverpool an Arab sheikh as president with one Brazilian coach and nine or 11 African players?" he said. "Where is Liverpool in that? We have to make some rules."

The president said that the question of foreign owners - some of whom have saddled their clubs with huge debts - was a matter for the British government but that Uefa was looking at ways of introducing Europe-wide regulations. Speaking before his induction into the National Football Museum's European hall of fame he said: "You have to have identity, that is where football's popularity lies. If you bring some people from Qatar and there is no one from Liverpool or Manchester on the pitch or in the company, where is Liverpool or Manchester?"


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Don't quite think this is workable but like i've mentioned before this should be the way forward. For me, being in massive debt is like borrowing your rich cousin's ferrari to take part in a neighbourhood kart race. whistling.gif
A much much better way to even the playing field than the proposed quota on foreign players.

This post has been edited by madmoz: Oct 9 2008, 11:24 AM
Duke Red
post Oct 9 2008, 11:24 AM

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I'm actually in favour of such an initiative. It just means you can't go around spending silly money you don't have. It also lessens the likelihood of a club going bust when their owners decide to pull the plug for whatever reason. Look at what's happening over in West Ham.
TSmadmoz
post Oct 9 2008, 11:29 AM

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IMHO - It would easier to stipulate that clubs must be actually profitable as the benchmark. As in Chelsea's case debt can easily be classed as equity. And as in Liverpool's case, debt can easily be transfered to a holding company.
The income statement on the other hand is harder to manipulate especially as the UK is much more stringent in the enforcement of accounting standards.

-Adrian-
post Oct 9 2008, 11:29 AM

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but isn't West Ham's case an isolated one?
Iceland froze the deposits of its citizens, hence the chairman pun kena
not like other countries will follow suit...
but hey these are crazy times

i agree with it to tbh, if the rule is implemented, majority of the clubs will have to refinance themselves

in a way this could see a reduction in transfer rates


Calvin871989
post Oct 9 2008, 11:43 AM

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hey im a man utd fan here and im intrested to know what's this article about, so can some one just give me the summary of this article. thanks smile.gif
Duke Red
post Oct 9 2008, 11:49 AM

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QUOTE(-Adrian- @ Oct 9 2008, 11:29 AM)
but isn't West Ham's case an isolated one?
Iceland froze the deposits of its citizens, hence the chairman pun kena
not like other countries will follow suit...
but hey these are crazy times

i agree with it to tbh, if the rule is implemented, majority of the clubs will have to refinance themselves

in a way this could see a reduction in transfer rates
*
Precisely. I for one think that the amount of money revolving around football these days is ludicrous. In the US, regulations like salary caps and the draft are in place to ensure a fair and level playing ground. Then there is the argument of course that if a club is successful, they deserve to be rewarded and enjoy privileges that smaller clubs don't. The thing with football in England in particular is that the gulf between the top sides and the rest of the league is widening. Forget the days where Blackburn could be promoted one season and win the league the next, these days promoted sides are just hoping to survive. Mid-table sides are only hoping to qualify for the UEFA Cup. Now being a fan of a top four side, it may suite me that this gulf exists but being a fan of the game, it is getting a little stale and predictable.

West Ham may be an isolated case at the moment but not long ago Leeds went under for spending more than they earned. Failure to qualify for Europe and winning any major titles buried them in massive debt.
verx
post Oct 9 2008, 11:55 AM

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I think in general clubs like Chelsea and Man Utd have been able to service their debt very well. Being in debt is not a bad thing. The size of the debt is irrelevant. What is important is whether you can leverage that debt to generate revenue to service it. UEFA have good intentions but I really struggle to see how they are going to implement this. Almost every European club have some form of debt.
-Adrian-
post Oct 9 2008, 12:02 PM

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Yea those clubs that are solvent and profitable are the TOP clubs in Europe
they can rely on their marketing and commercial profits as income

but for smaller mid table teams, how are they going to match the top clubs?
they dnt have the commercial power and the popularity, thus relying ONLY on ticket sales

let alone with this new regulation, its going to be tougher for the mid-lower table clubs to get a loan

not going to be easy to implement this rule unless it has multiple standards depending on ur position

less debts = more equity
cash strapped UK society, expect more foreign acquisitions
the revolving wheel of finance

This post has been edited by -Adrian-: Oct 9 2008, 12:42 PM
Vagine
post Oct 9 2008, 01:14 PM

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nowadays.. money really holds on everything. as a fan.. cant really do much bout it tho, sigh
MariMo
post Oct 9 2008, 01:43 PM

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QUOTE(Vagine @ Oct 9 2008, 01:14 PM)
nowadays.. money really holds on everything. as a fan.. cant really do much bout it tho, sigh
*
just sit back and enjoy watever the billionaires are doing.

solstice818
post Oct 9 2008, 06:28 PM

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QUOTE(Calvin871989 @ Oct 9 2008, 11:43 AM)
hey im a man utd fan here and im intrested to know what's this article about, so can some one just give me the summary of this article. thanks smile.gif
*
u shud take an initiative on reading it on ur own so that u wont miss a single point...

anyway, back to topic, i think is about time to...most of the owners actually refinance and din spend a cent from their own money...is actually quite unfair to do that since most of the new club cant match the finance of the big clubs...i guess no one forget wat happen to derby county sad.gif
uNeVErwaLkaloNe
post Oct 9 2008, 08:29 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ Oct 9 2008, 11:55 AM)
I think in general clubs like Chelsea and Man Utd have been able to service their debt very well. Being in debt is not a bad thing. The size of the debt is irrelevant. What is important is whether you can leverage that debt to generate revenue to service it. UEFA have good intentions but I really struggle to see how they are going to implement this. Almost every European club have some form of debt.
*
They could implement it in few years time, not necessary immediate. This will give enough time to clubs to clear any debt.

What happen to West Ham might be isolated case, but it could still happen to other clubs. In the end, those who suffer were the fans
mancy
post Oct 9 2008, 10:06 PM

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QUOTE(uNeVErwaLkaloNe @ Oct 9 2008, 08:29 PM)
They could implement it in few years time, not necessary immediate. This will give enough time to clubs to clear any debt.

What happen to West Ham might be isolated case, but it could still happen to other clubs. In the end, those who suffer were the fans
*
maybe they'll implement after all major euro club clear their debt becoz UEFA will suffer without these clubs in UCL.
who wanna watch UCL if major club is not in the competition anyway...
Everdying
post Oct 9 2008, 11:21 PM

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as much as i respect platini as a footballer, i think hes now a sour old man.
hes obviously not happy that 3 of the 4 CL finalists were 'english' teams, which i guess is why that new stupid ruling where u need to have at least 8 english players in ur team came into play etc.

QUOTE
The president said that the question of foreign owners - some of whom have saddled their clubs with huge debts - was a matter for the British government but that Uefa was looking at ways of introducing Europe-wide regulations. Speaking before his induction into the National Football Museum's European hall of fame he said: "You have to have identity, that is where football's popularity lies. If you bring some people from Qatar and there is no one from Liverpool or Manchester on the pitch or in the company, where is Liverpool or Manchester?"
since im a liverpool fan, lets just take a look at the mighty 1984 liverpool team.

1. bruce grobbelaar (zimbabwe)
2. phil neal (england)
3. alan kennedy (england)
4. mark lawrenson (rep of ireland)
5. ronnie whelan (rep of ireland)
6. alan hansen (scotland)
7. kenny dalglish (scotland)
8. sammy lee (england)
9. ian rush (wales)
10. craig johnston (australia)
11. graeme souness (scotland)

oh wow, look just 3 english players...and only 1 is from liverpool.

the current team have more tongue.gif

kobe8byrant
post Oct 9 2008, 11:21 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ Oct 9 2008, 11:55 AM)
I think in general clubs like Chelsea and Man Utd have been able to service their debt very well. Being in debt is not a bad thing. The size of the debt is irrelevant. What is important is whether you can leverage that debt to generate revenue to service it. UEFA have good intentions but I really struggle to see how they are going to implement this. Almost every European club have some form of debt.
*
Hammer. Nail. Head.

Nuff said.
TSmadmoz
post Oct 9 2008, 11:40 PM

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Btw, Chelsea's debt is interest free. No need to service at all. nod.gif

@ verx and kobe - which is why i say that profitability is a better measure. Your money in is more than your money out for last season, finish in a qualifying position and you're in.

Run in the red and you're out. Go sort out your books, ya cheating c*nt!
GrandElf
post Oct 10 2008, 12:24 PM

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cant imagine CL without those big club..... sweat.gif sweat.gif
se7en
post Oct 10 2008, 12:28 PM

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they don't have the balls to do it. without the epl clubs, the cl will loose a huge chunks of its sponsors. Platini is just pissed that the english clubs are ruling europe.
GrandElf
post Oct 10 2008, 12:35 PM

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QUOTE(se7en @ Oct 10 2008, 12:28 PM)
they don't have the balls to do it. without the epl clubs, the cl will loose a huge chunks of its sponsors. Platini is just pissed that the english clubs are ruling europe.
*
certainly.....maybe as a soft reminder to those big club tat their debt maybe will make them go into bankruptcy 1 day perhaps?? hmm.gif hmm.gif
yhtan
post Oct 10 2008, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(se7en @ Oct 10 2008, 12:28 PM)
they don't have the balls to do it. without the epl clubs, the cl will loose a huge chunks of its sponsors. Platini is just pissed that the english clubs are ruling europe.
*
true enough, if they cut the big 4 english club
UEFA will doom and their revenue will be drop down significantly, Platini always come out some restriction idea especially for english club shakehead.gif

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