i have encouter a number of people confuse juniper and pine. Yous is a juniper most probaly juniper procumbren

Juniper and pine share the same chinese letter word. But in English an biology they are two different they means different pant.
Junipers are coniferous plants in the genus Juniperus (pronounced /dʒuːˈnɪpərəs/)[1] of the cypress family Cupressaceae
Pines are trees in the genus Pinus (pronounced /ˈpaɪnəs/),[1] in the family Pinaceae.
Both of them belong to one big group called conifers

The toh jung is a juniper it cannot be call a pine. I think it is Juniperus procumbens is a low-growing shrubby juniper native to the southern Japan, it closly related to Juniperus chinensis. There are more than 50 type of juniper.

"nana" means a variety of the spesis in dwarf form, u got that in a few type of juniper.

J Procumbens is a prostrate plant meaning it grow sideway rather than up mabey that is why the chinese call it toh jung (lying juniper)

It is usual to compare plant base on the phenotype (the appearance of an organism based on a multifactorial combination of genetic traits and environmental factors) esp the leaf. But for clasification, the comparison on cone, flower or fruit are more reliable. Plant may appear in various form of phenotype or varieties but sometimes they can be of the same genotype hence the same spesis.

If u are staying in sungai buloh area that is from jalan hospital sungai buloh until kampung melayu subang, u can see so many type of inportat exotic plant, from japaness maple, mei or tao hua (during new year) ,holy ghost orchid,even the rare sabah sliper orchid, even many type of bonsai including black pine, and the list go on. So far the only flower that i like to see but not been around is botan or peony, . the best part is they at at very bargain price esp near around pusat kusta jalan hospital(do not worry abaout the kusta, you can hardly find someone with it) most ex patient mabey got a bit of deforminty but are cure and not infectious ( i work around there)'

You can buy prebonsai material to be made into bonsai.

Only just now i went just to look around and find a tree i think from conifer group, mabey juniper, the plant grow creeping, needle is a bit flat and and the tip is rounded abount 1.5cm long. the owner of the shop it is cal sui song, which is olso means sleeping juniper. hahaha rm130 per pot .

I gave up planting bonsai a few years ago n gave them to my brother becoz my job required me to travel out station a lot. but the year 2008 i move 2 sungai buloh my intrest revived after i encouter some black pine seedling 18 month ago,i bought 2 black pine (RM30) juz to experiment ( i kill 4 black pine in the year 1996), but this time i do a lot of reading n reshearch from the internet. The pine still surviving n doing well after 18 month, i got 5 now,( but i olso kill 2 because i experiment with diffrent planting medium) all of them seem to grow well. U can see them in my face book under my profil look my wall my hobby photo. juz type my name Chiang Cheng Kooi, e mail, utarid1964@yahoo.com. I have already train them in various shape, mostly my target is shohin bonsai, becoz i live in aparment an in the late 40ies, an juz like 2 see my result fast.
I did not buy the sui song, not very keen with juniper, hoverver i got 1 junier procumbren and 2 dwarf juniper(shohin). If u want to have a look at sui song u go to nursery near pusat kusta, look for a buddhist temple, oposite diagonally the is a nursery that got a lot of bonsai, u can see they sell black pine too (but not very healthy) ask for sui song. However it is not that impressive and not big but suitable to train shohin cascading plant.

This post has been edited by chiangchengkooi: Feb 16 2011, 03:57 PM

]from what i read, black pine does not respond well 2 air layering, may take more thant a year, even the cut around the trunk can kill the plat, if u ever want to try, use bridge air layering technic or just tie a thick wire around the trunk without any cutting.
Other than black pine i olso like to plant bonsai with low light tolerence, i got 2 fig or ficus multi trunk, fuse by growing ariel root making it a 4 inch trunk but 8 and 12 in height and an umberlla plant. I olso love red leaf plant, maple is too expensive so juz try cotinus. if i can garenty survival for maple i do not mind bying, but maple is difficult b coz it need a period of long cold dormancy about 1 month othe wise it will die after a few years.

I think you tree look like a type of murraya, most probaly murraya paniculata microphylla, i had a few of these, nursery in Malaysia inport them from Thailan and Taiwan.

Most of my pines are doig well.
However i cannot contribute much in pine germinating from seeds, i use young tree seedling from nursery stock. However i do read that some pine seeds need cold treatment b4 thay can germinate, perhaps u have to keep them in the refrigerator for a few month b4 sowing. Another tip is do not try all the seeds togather but rather batch by batch juz incase the condition for u first try did not work.
I seldom open this page but i always open my face book, perhaps u can add me in u friend list.

There are seven black pines n one taiwan five needle white pine in the enclose picture.
Starting from left
The first pot udergo traing for more than a year, from nuersery stock, about 3 years in malaysia sg buloh nursey opposite buddist tample b4 started traiing,
The second pot is from an imported bonsai stock, about 1 year living in Malaysia. I did some wireing n triming b coz the branch is rather long n spindly, bought from nursery after sungai buloh exit to jalan kuala selangor,
The third pot is actualy two pre twisted bonsai seedling, i coiled them togather to make them look more campact n dramatic, brought from Sanfong bonsai.
The fourth pot is from the nursery same as the second pot, udergotraining for more than three years
The fifth pot is a Taiwan five needle white pine, a very rare pine in Malaysia, a personal colection from the sg buloh nursery owner but i manage to convice him to sell it to me. The tree is is actually in a sorry state, but after undergo training it look ok so far.
The sixth pot is from Samfong bonsai, last week i had twisted the trunk to make it look more campact,
The seventh pot is from the same nursery as the second, undergo training for more than three year, last week i rewired it to look more campact.

This post has been edited by chiangchengkooi: Feb 27 2013, 09:44 PM


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Thanks.
Feel free to add me in u facebook

I cannot tell u much why is u pine with yellow tip.
what i can tell u is my pine expose to sun from 8am to 1pm, shield from the very hot afternoon sun and rain (remember i live in apartment)
The soil i use is 1/3 burnt soil, 1/3 pine bark from the pinus caribaea, the tropical pines u see in Malaysia and 1/3 brick pound into 2 to 5 mm grain. Sometimes i use black lava soil to instead of the pound brick grain.

The seedling i brought is RM180 for tree seedling from samfong

That is the only white pine that i have seen, bougt in one of the nursery along jalan sungai buloh subang

If you want to buy black pine bonsai from china, the nursery near sungai buloh highway exit to jalan kuala selangor at the moment do sell themranging from rm 250 to rm 1000, pic below



This post has been edited by chiangchengkooi: Feb 27 2013, 10:24 PM


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My pine does not turn yellow tip when i bend them, in fact pine is one of the most flexible to bend among the tree that i have enconuter.
By there is two pines i left in my brother house, one not expose to full tropical sun that is from 8am to 1pm only, one full exposure, the full exposure needle turn yellowish.
It could also due to the potting medium, i would suggest you to join Internet Bonsai Club or bonsai nut, post u pic and ask the member there, or join Lindsay Farr world of bonsai in facebook n ask the friend there.

Some bonsai master will say, learned how to keep pine alive first before u bonsai them.

If the pine is undergoing stress, NEVER do an root pruning. pruning, cutting, or wireing.


NEVER NEVER NEVER, bare root a o pine

NEVER NEVER NEVER cut more than 1/4 of the root ball when reporting or root pruning, (especially the root with white tip)

NEVER NEVER NEVER bare needle a pine. If you bare a branch, pine does not bud from a branch without needle so the branch/tree without needle is as same as dead.

What you should do after reporting is just leave it for more than tree month before u do anything. Unlike other type of tree, do not needle prune when reporting.

What i sometimes do is i usually wire the tree in its original pot first, bend it to the shape i want then tree month later when the tree does not show any stress i report to a bonsai pot. However if the potting medium in the original pot is not suitable i will change the potting medium first.

Black Pine or Pinus thunbergii is expensive in Malaysia becoz
They grow very very slow.
Pine will die if they are stress.
Once the show sign that they are dying u cannot do anything to recover them.
Nursery have to take in consideration these factor when deal with them.

Pine usually does not respond to air layering so your friend cannot propagates for u.
Maybe we can grow black or white pine in Malaysia, but that dos not mean they can propagate sexually here, so no seed for future generation.
Nursery cannot produce them locally.

However there is the Caribbean Pine, Pinus caribaea, a tropical pine do very well in Malaysia. Some people oversea do make bonsai from them.

This post has been edited by chiangchengkooi: Feb 28 2013, 10:56 AM

From what i have read, sometimes pine do response to air layering, but sometimes it take as long as more than a year or two.
If you want to air layer pine do not cut the full circumfren, if u do this, the top part might not get sap/fluid from the bottom, so it not likely to work.
what you can do is tie a wire around the trunk or branch, after some time a bulge will form n root might come out. U can also use the bridge air layering technigue or do some partial cutting so that some bulge will appear , air layer it n root might come out.

I never try this but i have read that a it can bee done. Most white pine in the market are grafted on a black pine. white pine got avery sensitive root problem, so nursery usally graf white pine on black pine root.
You can try another method too, if u want a short cut to have pine with big base,
Get a Caribean pine the pine you see growing well in Malaysia, cut a few of your black pine shoot and graft on the caribean pine, Quite a number of website wrote about pine grafting.

This post has been edited by chiangchengkooi: Feb 28 2013, 03:07 PM

Pine react slow to stress, so it is quite difficult to determine what the problem, if you did a few thing to it the last few week.

Many material are used for the pine potting mix from river sand, akadama, Tesco brand (in UK only) cat litter, coffee bean and lava soil. Generally pine bonsai need good drainage potting medium. However there are few consideration too when to water the tree. Thing to consider
The size of the tree and the size of the pot, for example shohin pine bonsai need potting material that can hold water longer because small pot use for shohin can dry up faster.
The ability of the medium to hold water, mixture that can hold water longer need less watering.
The sepsis of the pine, black pine can tolerate more wet potting (but prefer more dry side) mix compare to white pine that need more dry potting mix.
The shape of the pot, tall pot drain better then shallow, shallow pot also dry up faster, size of the drainage hold, some pot can even trap water becoz the drainage hold is at the higher level than the base.
I water my pine when the soil about to dry no after totally dry. But if in the mornig if i see it will be a bright sunny i will water them too.

Those pines you see in the nursery still maintain its vigor,I think they are still fresh from China, u can only see if they are stressful or not after some time, pine react slow to stress. Ah Chooi bonsai actually put their pine under canopy and they told me they are very careful with their watering. I bought one bonsai planted on a 1 feet tall pot but when I repot, I found out that half of the pot material under are broken Styrofoam block, which mean the tall pot actually do not hold much water. Back in China they might be planted on a “batas” for good drainage.
I will not use coconut fiber n black soil. In Japan black pine grow near the sea, and can tolerate some saltiness, I still will not use coconut fiber, Coconut fiber is known for being salty, the thing is we do not know how much saltiness can the pine tolerate, further more I never read anywhere that coconut fiber is use for pine mix. Black soil sold in Malaysia contain quite high amount of organic matter. Poted pine do not like the soil to be too organic.
Next time try using tanah Malang a black lava soil, imported from Indonesia, there are about 1 mm to 4mm grain, usually malay bonsai nursery import them, sometime Samfong sell them. Like akadama it is well known for black pine. Before I found tanah Malang, I use to “tumbuk” red brick then sieve them to get the 2 mm to 6 mm grain and this is very labor intensive. Tanah Malang can hold water without getting soggy
For organic part, the reason pine bark are use is because it will promote a type of cotton like fungus call mycorrhizaon around the root, the fungus help the pine absorb nutrient. You can get pine bark from Caribbean pine here, u can find a few tree in Taman Tasik Titiwangsa. Cut them into 2 mm to 6 mm size,
The amount of burnt soil mix determined the water retention you want.
This comment is just my own personal view only. They are people who use other potting mix and their pine thrives.

This post has been edited by chiangchengkooi: Mar 2 2013, 08:07 AM

You do not cut the pine branch to get the bark, DBKL will saman u lo. Juz peel the bark from the trunk, scouct around, u might find pine tree that are around the area you stay. If you use tanah malang, u do not have to use brick granul, either one will do.

Pine grow very very slow, they only bud one or twice a year.
After tree year i am still on branch extention and to get the branch more ramification. I have not come to shrinking the needle yet, sellecting the bud n decandlling yet. So i can not tell you much.
Pine are light feeder, i use 1 or two teaspoon of organic fetilizer onece every 2 or 3 month. Sometimes i will use fetilizer specialy for black pine which i found in a DIY shop in mid valley mega mall, that also i use 1 or 2 pinch only. Never ever use manure, goat dung, or chiken shit for fettilizing, they are too much for the tree.
For the first few year do not worry about shrinking needle yet, learn how to keep the pine alive, understand it grow habbit, wireing the branch to the outline of the tree you want.
After a year, you do can try to make the tree look compact by pinching shoot so that new bud will come out. Always retain some healty needle because, pine do not bud from botak branch.

With wireing technique, you can
Direct the direction you want the branch to grow,
to shorten the long branch by making them to benkang bengkok,
U can olso bring the branch on the right to the left or vice versa by twisting the wired trunk, how ever this only work for the upper pact of the tree.
Be very careful when wiereing, do not pul the wire until it cut into the bark, u tree can die from bleeding! Futher more if it suvive , it will live an ugly scar. I will use 2 player to help me to wrap the wire around the trunk or branch without damaging the bark. If u cut into the bark better use paper tape to balut the injured part. If u bend too much n hear a craking sound, the branch can still be save, stop your prosedure n balut the injured part,
Some pine sifu will recomed to wrap the trunk or branch with natural rafia or tape before wireing to avoid injuring the tree.
If you want to cut a big branch or the top part of the tree, leave a few inch from the part u intend to cut, tape the end of the stum n let it dry up, after a few month u can gradualy cut n cut until the point taht you want.

After you do something dratic to the pine, eg reporting, cutting of the sacrificial trunk or branch, etc to the pine wait for a period of 3 to 6 month b4 u do another thing, the longer the better, pine do not like to be disturb a lot.

When the green needle is emerging from the candle or bud, DO NOT do repotting or wireing, at this time pine is very sensitive. Repoting is best done when the tree is dorman, before the bud elongated or when there is no bud.
The easy but nice to acieve style is the semicascade, this style enable u to use a deeper pot,( pine prefer deeper pot)
wich does not easyly dry out n provide a good drainage.

Go slow with pine, some bonsai sifu say that they get their result usualy after 10 years. So my feloow young bonsaist, you can start training pine bonsai now.

This post has been edited by chiangchengkooi: Mar 2 2013, 05:03 PM

Check the number of needles per bundle, if it is five, it could be taiwan white pine, pinus morisonicola, iConsider your self lucky, because taiwan do not permit the export of this pine. Most probaly it is geminated from seed. There are few type of white pine that look similar, chinese white pine or pinus armani ( not sure of the spelling) , vietnam white pine and hainan white pine.
The needle are soft, light green and can grow to 7 to 9 cm long but can be reduce after few years in pot.
If you do not see any bundle of the needle with 5 needles, very likely it a type of tropical pine, caribean pine or honduras pine. The former is more common in Malaysia.
Chinese name for white pine is wu yek song, japanese name goyo matsu. Go yo means five leaf, same sound with hokien as goh heok, as both japan and hokiean had lot of word from the same origin that is Tang Dynasty, China. Kuromatsu, the sound 'ro, similar with hokien 'or, means black. For the same reason japanese word bonsai also orgin from Tang Dynasty.

This post has been edited by chiangchengkooi: Jan 6 2014, 12:23 AM