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Financial Is property going to drop?, General property price discussion

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maxforce
post Dec 19 2010, 10:42 AM

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QUOTE(WannaGetBuffed @ Dec 19 2010, 12:01 AM)
Actually I'm in a dillemma as well, I have been saving up for quite some time. I don't know whether I should invest it in my 2nd property or just use it to clear off my car loan.

With high property prices these days, I would not rather take a loan to pay off the bank with huge interest.

Any suggestion? Pay off car loan or get a 2nd property?
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Pay off car loan dont get much back - ie dont save much interest.

You didnt mention 1st property, so I d assume its fully paid for.
So 2nd property, assume (again tongue.gif) is for investment purposes.
For investment purposes, best to look at all available vehicles then see which one fits your risk/reward preference.
For property, many are generating like 5-6% ROI. If this is ok with you then go for it, search for the best fit property - ie capital required, capital appreciation or rental return, etc etc
e.g. Palm Springs - which has generally negligible capital appreciation but good stable rental return.
maxforce
post Dec 21 2010, 10:23 AM

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Onemorething,

Just to clarify your statement - Rule #1 - No more than 40% of your net worth should be in RE ownership!

1. Net worth or net disposable income?
2. Is this some investment pie? Can share the optimum one?
maxforce
post Dec 21 2010, 11:46 AM

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QUOTE(lucerne @ Dec 21 2010, 11:25 AM)
base on my experience during my stay in Shanghai, the people start talking about buying property since 7-8 years ago and til today the price is still up up. u can hear almost everyone on the street , office, fren, relative etc asking "have u bought a house??"  it is differrent from stock market when people on the street start talking stock market, that mean the market will fall soon. base on the above, i think KL property stil will up for several years.  i think china property will up further as the RMB is become weaker (compare to other currencies eg RM, SGD etc) - despite various control from govt.  when chinese are still buying (house and car), all raw materials /commodities eg steel, cement will up. and msia properties will up too.  judge on china /india population, i think this situation will not change in another 10 years. that is why when 1997, 2008 market crash, property still hold and go up further (now peak)... same if the stock market crash in next few years, property market will keep going up due to china/india raw mat/strong housing demand.  as far as i understand , there are still millions of chinese people waiting to buy house. many are influence by the media, ad, tv, movie etc for better living standard.. they can live in village /wooden house in the past (Mao's era) but now everyone want to buy nice/modern apartment. (even in kampong!)- i think this is same to india, indonesia, msia etc.  unless we all go back to old days - everyone live in kampong house and without renovation, furnishing etc which is now impossible.  those days your father/grand can drive a car without air cond but now surely you cant !! living standard is only more demanding not downward. you expect to see more steel and concrete everywhere.
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You re quite right that property market is different from stock market
However I think what ppl is afraid of is that the bubble would be akin to Japan property's boom and bust cycle
maxforce
post Dec 21 2010, 11:52 AM

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Visual image for Japan property's boom and bust cycle
user posted image
maxforce
post Dec 21 2010, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(lucerne @ Dec 21 2010, 02:03 PM)
i think we also cant use Euro zone as Euro notes only circulate from 1st Jan 2002 and since then the Euro yoyo from 80-140 (var= 60 !!) , may be someone could benchmark house price with USD? I just return from Germany and the house price is still up up in major cities.
one will ask how about in US?? i can tell u the price in major cities eg NY the price is still up up.  likewise  in KL, i think the price is sitll up. compare a remote towns in US is something compare with bidor, grik etc or even outskirt of JB eg pasir gudang, pekan nanas etc
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Ireland do not use EUR, they use GBP
maxforce
post Dec 21 2010, 05:56 PM

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My bad then tongue.gif
maxforce
post Dec 23 2010, 06:38 PM

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There is a reason why the rich always win -
while they re selling, we re buying
and while they re buying, we re thinking abt how to afford it

maxforce
post Dec 23 2010, 09:24 PM

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Actually, it has very little to do with hope. Economy moves in cycles. There is always a time for boom and time for bust.
We can hope the prices will go up but if its time to bust, no matter how much prayers we make, our hopes will not be fulfilled.
Same thing with hoping prices will plunge. If its a boom time, it wont.

That said, it is indeed observed on the ground ie visiting listed property for sale that
1. Agents are now less lcly, hungrier and more agitated to close the sale.
2. Prices has not come down much though for certain areas, it is observed that price came down about 5-10% matching or closer to bank valuation as opposed to previously higher than bank valuation.
3. Listed properties also took longer time to sell, ie many units of the same interior pictures are still on the market after 2-3 months.
4. New launches are still using the same old sticker tactics only to be resold later.

I believe that the above are signs that the seller market is losing steam. That said, no sign of it will be a buyers market yet. Its a lockdown.
maxforce
post Dec 24 2010, 11:42 PM

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+1

I think it was Jan 94

Another thing, you sure 100-200 basis points next year?
I m thinking 25-50 basis point only.
maxforce
post Dec 26 2010, 02:33 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Dec 26 2010, 12:40 PM)
I do not think BNM will raise more than 0.5-1% next year.

Even when inflation is severe time during 2007, when oil price reached USD140, BNM merely raise 0.25-0.5% to around 3.xx% only, never exceed 4%

BNM may only raise rate to beyond 4% if the economy is robust time, while if economy is robust, I do not think property market will crash.

A correction, price going down 10-20% due to economy recession, or price stagnant, yes, very high chance.
A crash, chance is rather remote.
I also do not think BNM will raise 100 bps next year.
However, I do not think your figures of the BLR is right.
Attached the historical BLR.
By the way, my reference of interest rate refers to BLR, not deposit rates.

user posted image


QUOTE(cherroy @ Dec 26 2010, 12:40 PM)
For properties price crash you need to have several key factor
1. High leveraged forcing fire-sale. Until now, Malaysia situation although a bit alarming, it is still not as high as what happened on US. (or yet)
Banks are not releasing loan like no tomorrow as what happened to subprime.

2. High unemployement. For current situation, most employers are having hard time to get enough employee. Yes, one might say those are more lower paid. But for the wages range from 1~2.5K, there are still abundant job available, if one is not choosy and has enough skill in the first place.

3. High interest rate. Chance is also remote based on current situation and worldwide central banks reluctant to hike rate. 99.9% of central banks prefer to see inflation as compared recession.

Properties is about location, for strategy location, it is hard to see how it can crash, a minor correction is the most possible outcome.

Those crash one may more about those remote, non-strategy location, which people speculate like no tomorrow one in the first place. But think deeper, those properties won't crash, because there won't be any buyer for it, so no transaction going on, no price transacted, price don't crash.  tongue.gif
But buyer stuck with those properties.  tongue.gif
*
1. Banks release of loan versus income is indeed very alarming. As posted previously, I do know of banks lending based on monthly instalment of 60-80% of disposable monthly income.
A general guide should be indeed 30-40%. Anything more, is risky for the individual, and may affect the economy too.

2. The range of salary from 1-2.5K is not worrisome as they are not, or at least I assume, they are not part of those who purchase 500K property. The more related one would be those in the range of 5K-10K monthly income.
That said, I do not see much employment issues for those in this range.

3. Malaysia did raise interest rate in 2010. Korea as well. China I cannot remember if they did in 2010 though they are likely to do so in 2011. US as well. China's govt also show that they dare to cool down the economy while US always fear that they are not competitive. Assuming China does raise interest rate, US would likely to follow suit as their competitiveness in export may not be so affected.

Properties indeed is about location, passive investment tool. However, nowadays it became like another Genting. I do not see much difference in the way the flippers play the property market vs those gamblers in Genting. Of course, there are genuine investors around with high holding power and long term horizon (5-10 yrs minimum)

Now indeed it is slowed transactions - listing increases, duration of listing increased as well but price stagnant. Both buyer and seller refuses to budge. Lockdown, I d say.

maxforce
post Dec 26 2010, 05:02 PM

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QUOTE(prody @ Dec 26 2010, 04:17 PM)
China raised 25 basispoints on 20 October and another 25 basispoints as of today.
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Thanks for the info thumbup.gif
maxforce
post Dec 26 2010, 07:14 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Dec 26 2010, 05:22 PM)
I am refering to OPR.  smile.gif
BLR is following the BNM's OPR as OPR is basic cost of money.

1. I only know some which is more conservative bank still lending at the old practice. Mind to tell which bank? Serve good indicator to avoid buying those banks share.  biggrin.gif
Well, since this is property thread, so I think in terms of loan, would refer to property loan.
Not talking about BA RC LC TR facilities.
Since property loan, I think most banks still offer based on BLR minus some percentages? tongue.gif

maxforce
post Dec 26 2010, 07:26 PM

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Because rental yield may be stagnant or be higher should the timing of purchase be later? - assuming what you said abt the prices stagnant or decreases, that is.
tongue.gif
maxforce
post Dec 26 2010, 10:10 PM

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And... your tenant could cabut, dont honour the agreement.
General rental rate may drop.
etc etc.

There are definitely risks involved. Put it this way, many properties today listed for sale are with tenants. Positive cashflow. Yield min 5%. Why are they selling? wink.gif
maxforce
post Dec 27 2010, 07:13 PM

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QUOTE(prody @ Dec 27 2010, 02:38 PM)
This is one of the reasons China need to start raising the interest rate: Ghost Cities in China
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Damn.... they ve rewritten the rules...


Added on December 27, 2010, 7:52 pmMore on China's ghost town:-
KPMG is being optimistic - though noted that most are referenced to Zhengzhou while other parts are referenced to the Zhengzhou New District
http://www.kpmg.de/media/Zhengzhou_Investment09_eng.pdf

The largest mall in the world.
http://sgenergycrisis.com/blog/crisis/ghos...malls-in-china/
Imagine if one had purchased/entered into a long term lease for a unit etc there. To cut or to hold?


Added on December 27, 2010, 8:02 pmSource: Al Jazeera
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk


Added on December 27, 2010, 8:09 pmSource: Press TV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzRvVaxA1dI

This post has been edited by maxforce: Dec 27 2010, 08:09 PM
maxforce
post Dec 30 2010, 11:53 PM

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Speculators are speculators.
Lets call an orange an orange
Lets call a spade a spade
Like what Soros did to Msia - he shorted RM and loads of other currencies. He wasnt bound by moral sense. He is in it to make money. End of story.
We at the end of the brunt, will definitely feel the pain.

Since speculators are not bound by moral sense, they do not feel the pain of others. They cannot feel that. Else they wont make money. If the way to make money is to ride with the bulls, then they will. If the way to make is to raid with the bears, they will. Simple as that.

So, when the shit hits the fan and the theory of the greater fool fails, I personally shall feel no pity for these speculators should they be caught.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

PS - There isnt much difference between a speculator of the stock market vs property vs commodity or even those smalltimers hoarding basic necessities. All do not care much about ethics. Black cat, white cat, they catch the mice - in this case, the mice just happens to be $$$.
Its only about risk reward management


Added on December 31, 2010, 12:03 am
QUOTE(wwwcomment @ Dec 30 2010, 03:22 PM)
Good clip thumbup.gif

That said, it takes two hands to clap.
They wanna play, but if no one plays with them, then we have a lockdown
Ghost cities in China exists because of this lockdown.

The best defence that we have against the super rich, is knowledge and patience cool.gif

This post has been edited by maxforce: Dec 31 2010, 12:03 AM
maxforce
post Dec 31 2010, 11:56 PM

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Soros is a speculator and he s a genius in what he does ie speculating tongue.gif
Most ppl who "speculate" are followers hence the herd mentality. They may think of themselves as speculators when in fact are just tips followers.
Lets not degrade the actual speculators tongue.gif:P:P


Added on January 1, 2011, 12:04 amSurvival of the fittest is the law of nature


Added on January 1, 2011, 12:08 am
QUOTE(sulifeisgreat @ Dec 31 2010, 10:10 AM)
world is never fair, learn to live with it & dun expect handouts. learn see things as opportunity instead of suffering  rolleyes.gif
tis is call the free market system. even china, russia, cuba, vietnam & etc has join the club
if u wan control economy. then better migrate to venezula & zimbabwe, the country will jaga u
http://www.sharespost.com/companies/facebook
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To say that the world is not fair is valid.
To describe free market system is also valid
To suggest migration to other countries like Venezuela sounded like - Kalau tak suka, balik China etc statements.

On another related issue is that we have this mentality - its like this one lor.
So everyone needs to live with it.

If everyone does that, then there ll be no progress in this world.
Like the saying goes -
The reasonable man adapts to the world, while
the unreasonable man adapts the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man tongue.gif

This post has been edited by maxforce: Jan 1 2011, 12:08 AM
maxforce
post Jan 1 2011, 08:42 PM

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QUOTE(epie @ Jan 1 2011, 12:43 PM)
Happy New Year....2011
this thread started 2008...so any drop in property price?
*
Merely shows that timing is the issue. Not that it is impossible to drop. LOLz
Mountains may take forever to be formed but may be destroyed in a moment of earthquake tongue.gif
maxforce
post Jan 2 2011, 12:57 PM

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Cest la vie, cest la vie.
Its a little like courting girls actually. A little. Not completely the same.
So there is a girl who comes along, doesnt mean that we re available then must date the girl etc.
Sure regret if waited from 2008?

Say one person is looking for own stay. Financially ok. Not rich, but okla.
So should he have bought in 2008?

Of course now that we are in 2011, and we saw the prices, definitely we d say, aiyah!!!! Should have bought then! Then would have made so much so much... this type of story, if you ask auntie and uncles, they ll always tell you - when their time, property was this this cheap etc.

Now say, say la, we re like Japan's property peak now. Then it do a full price retracement to the prices of 2004.
Then what would we have said?
Aiyah!!!! Should have waited la... or Aiyah!!! Should have sold!

Point is, no point regretting. No point saying I told you so, etc. We merely say those remarks upon hindsight. Nothing so great about it. tongue.gif

When will it drop and at what price will drop? LOLz! Multi million dollar question - if anyone knows, then he or she will be the richest man or woman on earth! Move aside Billy! Here comes the property price timer! tongue.gif:P:P

That said, it doesnt mean we go on a shopping binge buying everything on the market. LOLz!

maxforce
post Jan 2 2011, 02:46 PM

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Mont Kiara?

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