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 Blatter seeks quotas, Are English teams being victimised?

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mokhzaini
post May 8 2008, 09:42 PM

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other than arsenal fans,

dont be too soon shouting joy at arsenal's expense

they still can get through this homegrown thing easily.

see what arsene has done for few years? taking cheap talented african natives at young age and train them at arsenal. then we got some people like armand traore, that lanky no 4 (whats his name, forgot edi), eboue, bretner, et. al.

he also got some young englishmen at his youth set up, which is i think a good and brilliant thing to do. clubs will struggle to buy decent english players at decent price. what happening now is, DECENT english players SELL on big money.

remember Rooney, SWP?

i am sure rooney is a money well spent, but SWP?

and also clubs have to adhere to the FA rules that they cannot take youth players living 90 minutes/ 90 km (i am not so sure which one, better clarify) outside the clubs radius, which is absolutely xxxx type of rules. they only take in youths as trainees which lives within that 90km/ minutes from the clubs.

imagine arsene, and sir Alex - proven records of excellent managers and great youth set up - can overcome the 90km/minute rule, definitely there will be many english youth plying their trade in big, great clubs.

going back to blatter. nevermind. let him talk. i wonder where he was when Spanish League was the all conquering league in the late 90s?


faris21
post May 9 2008, 12:35 AM

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EU reject Blatter quota

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m o m o
post May 9 2008, 07:21 AM

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Seriously, I don't give two flying *fox about the England national team... why should I? I'd rather watch Croatia or even Russia.

We are football fans and we spend some good money in supporting our clubs, and we like to see good football... we seriously won't bother if the player is from Spain or St Kitts and Nevis, as long as that fella plays good football for my team and shows he means business, I am a happy man...

That, and one of the most basic tenet of democracy; the freedom of movement and pursue of happiness. So, we are playing dictators now? Trying to limit the employment opportunity of honest people? If you have an offer to work in a company in another country, everything you've wanted in a career are there for you, ambition and monetary wise, would you be pissed if some joker and non-person (like Blatter) comes and say you may not. Hmm?

Or, let's say, if you are the boss of a company and the best people to take your company forward are people from abroad, would you hesitate, bearing in mind the survival and prosperity of your company and its shareholders are at stake. Hmm?

Granted, you might be able to coach and mentor a few locals (bearing in mind this is not definite), invest in some training courses which involves time and monetary costs (bearing in mind none or very very little of which will come from a governing body of the industry) and I can't head-hunt prospects from other nations to do this. Fair?

And some people are actually listening to Sepp Blatter has to say? This is the same guy that said female footballers must wear shorter shorts, coz the are sexy. Enough said.
TSDuke Red
post May 9 2008, 11:06 AM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 8 2008, 05:40 PM)
You may keep dismissing it but whether we like it or not there isn't a huge market over here for the Italian or Spanish game. They just don't see the returns.


Let us assume for a moment it is only a language thing. I do listen to logic and the reason I keep bringing this up is because I see potential for other leagues to really penetrate the Asian market if they really wanted to. David Beckham signing for Real Madrid is one such example. While one player might not make a world of difference, what if a few Premiership favourites were to cross over? What if the Spanish were to employ former Premiership players to do their English commentary? All I'm suggesting it isn't impossible if they thought it was important enough. Maybe they don't?

QUOTE(mokhzaini @ May 8 2008, 09:42 PM)
other than arsenal fans,

dont be too soon shouting joy at arsenal's expense

they still can get through this homegrown thing easily.

see what arsene has done for few years? taking cheap talented african natives at young age and train them at arsenal. then we got some people like armand traore, that lanky no 4 (whats his name, forgot edi), eboue, bretner, et. al.


For starters I'm not taking the piss out of any club. I am only addressing your statement because you brought it up and it reminded me of an article I read regarding African football players.

Here you go. I found the bolded statement particularly interesting :
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A matter of morality I suppose. African being an impoverished nation is being exploited. Anyone watch the movie, "Blood Diamond"? It's not legally wrong to buy a diamond but knowing what measures could have been taken to obtain it might play on the conscience of some.

QUOTE(mokhzaini @ May 8 2008, 09:42 PM)
he also got some young englishmen at his youth set up, which is i think a good and brilliant thing to do. clubs will struggle to buy decent english players at decent price. what happening now is, DECENT english players SELL on big money.

remember Rooney, SWP?

i am sure rooney is a money well spent, but SWP?
Most clubs would like to have some English blood in their veins. I'm just curious though. Who are the English youth players you are referring to? Many youth teams have a large number of English players, naturally being England and all but how many do you reckon will graduate to the senior side? It's cheaper to buy proven foreign talent than it is to invest in one English player hoping he'd make the grade. It's the same problem faced by the other Premiership sides. At Liverpool we are hoping the likes of Hobbs and Anderson will make the grade but the last time someone broke through to the senior side was Stephen Warnock and even then we sold him to Blackburn.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 9 2008, 11:12 AM
yngwie
post May 9 2008, 11:28 AM

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with more chances to homegrown talents, this may benefit the england's national team in the future.
berzerk
post May 9 2008, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(yngwie @ May 9 2008, 11:28 AM)
with more chances to homegrown talents, this may benefit the england's national team in the future.
*
That is the usual reason for this sort of ruling but really are english players being deprived of opportunities in their own country?

In the past few eyars you can see all the young players come through at Man City, Middlesboro, West Ham. Even Arsenal youngsters have a chance to play, except they go elsewhere to ddo it (see Pennant, Upson & Bentley). In the case of Bentley, he's now good enough to be an england player. Why complain about not being able to play for the big 4 or only having the chance to play for middling teams like Middleboro when english players are unwilling to go play overseas at a reduced wage?

That england failed to qualify for Euro 2008 is due to the weakness of the manager, not the players & even if the number of foreigners are reduced in EPL, what make its more likely that England can do better in tournaments than the QF stage?


livingmonolith
post May 9 2008, 11:43 AM

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QUOTE(yngwie @ May 9 2008, 11:28 AM)
with more chances to homegrown talents, this may benefit the england's national team in the future.
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which is an english problem, not a global problem if you ask me. the clubs are not responsible for the development of the national team, the FA is. if the FA wants a change in the system, they can propose it, but i believe blatter is suggesting such quota for the sake of the national team, which again, is none of our concerns, as far as i noticed.

anyway, the EU has voted against blatter's plan, so i guess we're still watching bpl the way it is now.
verx
post May 9 2008, 12:15 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 9 2008, 11:06 AM)
Let us assume for a moment it is only a language thing. I do listen to logic and the reason I keep bringing this up is because I see potential for other leagues to really penetrate the Asian market if they really wanted to. David Beckham signing for Real Madrid is one such example. While one player might not make a world of difference, what if a few Premiership favourites were to cross over? What if the Spanish were to employ former Premiership players to do their English commentary? All I'm suggesting it isn't impossible if they thought it was important enough. Maybe they don't?
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I think the problem here Duke is that you keep looking from just one point of view ie the South East Asian market. David Beckham did wonders for Real Madrid in penetrating the global market but as u brought up yesterday what about the other teams? And as far as I know the league isn't the one who decides to hire commentators. The media companies do. And as I've said before Skysports does provide English commentary for Spanish games. They just aren't aired here because no one here has paid the rights for them. It's not the league's fault in that case. And since you're so adamant about this issue maybe you can help me petition to ESPN Starsports for it laugh.gif I would surely appreciate it tongue.gif

This post has been edited by verx: May 9 2008, 12:16 PM
m o m o
post May 9 2008, 01:32 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 9 2008, 11:06 AM)
Most clubs would like to have some English blood in their veins. I'm just curious though. Who are the English youth players you are referring to? Many youth teams have a large number of English players, naturally being England and all but how many do you reckon will graduate to the senior side? It's cheaper to buy proven foreign talent than it is to invest in one English player hoping he'd make the grade. It's the same problem faced by the other Premiership sides. At Liverpool we are hoping the likes of Hobbs and Anderson will make the grade but the last time someone broke through to the senior side was Stephen Warnock and even then we sold him to Blackburn.
*
Even Hobbs and Anderson weren't developed by Liverpool, they were bought from other academies...

Anyway, on the question of the popularity of other leagues, I can't see the other top leagues being popular here... and by popular, I mean that most casual fans will be able to at least name a few players and managers as well as know the strength of each clubs...

Commentaries? Could be a source of problem, because the BPL has got so much attention and treatment, with magazine shows, pre-match analysis etc.

Another could be the history of a particular nation, like Msia being an ex colony of Britain... Naturally, we tend to sway to Britain and it's popular culture... look at Spore, HK, India etc... we are mad about the BPL... and not only football, badminton, hockey and even cricket!

Some chose to follow a Spanish team or Italian team, maybe just to be different or for other intrinsic values, totally fine by me so long as he / she is not a band wagon jumper... I follow the La Liga simply because it is exciting... Italian league could put many to sleep but it is still very entertaining for purists... But it may be very difficult for these two leagues to break into the popular culture... even some of football enthusiastic friends (BPL naturally) find them both not so appealing... time is also very limited and the fact that La Liga matches usually airs at 2-3-4-5 am...
TSDuke Red
post May 9 2008, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE(m o m o @ May 9 2008, 01:32 PM)
Another could be the history of a particular nation, like Msia being an ex colony of Britain... Naturally, we tend to sway to Britain and it's popular culture... look at Spore, HK, India etc... we are mad about the BPL... and not only football, badminton, hockey and even cricket!
This is the issue I have yet to identify with. From the circle of people I know, not many watch/play badminton (although I do), hockey and least of all, cricket. Football is probably the most popular sport in the world so I won't attribute it to an English influence. I mentioned this to Verx before, and have to say that aside from the language, I find nothing English about me (well, the fact that I like beer perhaps). If anything I think we are largely influenced by American culture and when I saw we, I mean people of our generation, give or take a generation or two. I for one hate watching baseball or American Football for that matter.

American Culture vs. British Culture? In reference to our lifestyles (rap, hip-hop, etc), I think it's a close call. More like Western Culture rather than any one particular nation.
madmoz
post May 9 2008, 01:53 PM

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Perhaps looking at the overall number of players v 'local' players isn't as relevant as looking at the nationality of the key players in any given squad.
I hardly think that having 5-6 local squad players making up the numbers in a team where the stars are all foreign helps either.

Also, could it be that the fact that TV money is negotiated as a whole as opposed to being done by the individual clubs helping 'level the field' somewhat, hence making the BPL that bit more exciting and marketable?

Finally, the stats lie. The French league has a large number of 'localised' Africans, surely they aren't 100% local - even though many do end up playing for France. doh.gif
m o m o
post May 9 2008, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 9 2008, 01:42 PM)
This is the issue I have yet to identify with. From the circle of people I know, not many watch/play badminton (although I do), hockey and least of all, cricket. Football is probably the most popular sport in the world so I won't attribute it to an English influence. I mentioned this to Verx before, and have to say that aside from the language, I find nothing English about me (well, the fact that I like beer perhaps). If anything I think we are largely influenced by American culture and when I saw we, I mean people of our generation, give or take a generation or two. I for one hate watching baseball or American Football for that matter.

American Culture vs. British Culture? In reference to our lifestyles (rap, hip-hop, etc), I think it's a close call. More like Western Culture rather than any one particular nation.
*
Not every aspect of the culture lar...more like the likes of sports, esp football... hockey is not big in KL, but in other states, it is played in schools along with football... badminton is a widely played sports here... cricket - not so much, only Indians I observe...

That is why you don't see us going ga-ga over American football and even the NBA has a very limited fan base... just like the La Liga and Serie A, limited fan base...


Added on May 9, 2008, 2:18 pm
QUOTE(madmoz @ May 9 2008, 01:53 PM)
Perhaps looking at the overall number of players v 'local' players isn't as relevant as looking at the nationality of the key players in any given squad.
I hardly think that having 5-6 local squad players making up the numbers in a team where the stars are all foreign helps either.

Also, could it be that the fact that TV money is negotiated as a whole as opposed to being done by the individual clubs helping 'level the field' somewhat, hence making the BPL that bit more exciting and marketable?

Finally, the stats lie. The French league has a large number of 'localised' Africans, surely they aren't 100% local - even though many do end up playing for France. doh.gif
*
Correct, correct, correct... it is like having a vegetable dish during an all-out BBQ dinner, it is there to make us all feel better...

Anyway, Blatter's motion got kicked which is always a good thing...

This post has been edited by m o m o: May 9 2008, 02:18 PM
mokhzaini
post May 9 2008, 02:30 PM

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Duke Red,

of course the thing with ethics in whatever we do is VERY THIN-ly defined.

thats why arsene was banging left and right about football. yes, he was HALF RIGHT, but to him football means the one with no visa oriented agenda. he wanted to build one good footballing side without to concern about wherever they come from.

but he is not in line with the FA or FIFA or whoever claims they are the taukeh of football. they wanted to have a large pool of national players and dont give a damn on clubs.

so, is arsene is at fault (because he doesnt care about wherever the player comes, plust the fact that english players cost bomb) or the FA/ FIFA who think clubs should breed more national players?

but yeah. i do support the argument that african players come cheap and their work rate are amazing. built oso very tough.

see that essien? hes the closest to a bull of all players i've ever seen. but if opportunity arise, he will slump to the floor with the slightest touch to his hair. lol


m o m o
post May 9 2008, 02:42 PM

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QUOTE(mokhzaini @ May 9 2008, 02:30 PM)
Duke Red,

of course the thing with ethics in whatever we do is VERY THIN-ly defined.

thats why arsene was banging left and right about football. yes, he was HALF RIGHT, but to him football means the one with no visa oriented agenda. he wanted to build one good footballing side without to concern about wherever they come from.

but he is not in line with the FA or FIFA or whoever claims they are the taukeh of football. they wanted to have a large pool of national players and dont give a damn on clubs.

so, is arsene is at fault (because he doesnt care about wherever the player comes, plust the fact that english players cost bomb) or the FA/ FIFA who think clubs should breed more national players?

but yeah. i do support the argument that african players come cheap and their work rate are amazing. built oso very tough.

see that essien? hes the closest to a bull of all players i've ever seen. but if opportunity arise, he will slump to the floor with the slightest touch to his hair. lol
*
Money is at the root of it all, not player development crap we are being fed with...

FIFA makes noise, because without home-grown players, it diminishes their money-making World Cup...

UEFA doesn't care because the Champions League is making shitload of moolah...

Work rate of African players are amazing? Not entirely true, for every Essien, there is a Diouf...

That, and the fact that a lot of African players do not play well beyond their late twenties...


MADReaLJL
post May 9 2008, 02:48 PM

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talking about english players, just read this

QUOTE
Martin O'Neill insists Liverpool have undervalued Aston Villa skipper Gareth Barry at 10million as he reiterated his determination to try to keep the England midfielder. O'Neill and Barry are due to have further talks after Sunday's final Premier League clash with West Ham about the future of the former Brighton trainee.

m o m o
post May 9 2008, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(MADReaLJL @ May 9 2008, 02:48 PM)
talking about english players, just read this
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I have to admit, Barry is worth more than 10 mil, but no more than 15 mil IMHO...

Over-priced Englishmen, the English are pricing themselves out of the game I am afraid...
verx
post May 9 2008, 03:43 PM

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QUOTE(Duke Red @ May 9 2008, 01:42 PM)
This is the issue I have yet to identify with. From the circle of people I know, not many watch/play badminton (although I do), hockey and least of all, cricket. Football is probably the most popular sport in the world so I won't attribute it to an English influence. I mentioned this to Verx before, and have to say that aside from the language, I find nothing English about me (well, the fact that I like beer perhaps). If anything I think we are largely influenced by American culture and when I saw we, I mean people of our generation, give or take a generation or two. I for one hate watching baseball or American Football for that matter.

American Culture vs. British Culture? In reference to our lifestyles (rap, hip-hop, etc), I think it's a close call. More like Western Culture rather than any one particular nation.
*
We are largely influenced by our parents and grandparents and so on and so forth and they were largely influenced by the British. Is it a coincidence that our most popular sports are football, badminton and hockey? That's because those games were introduced to them by the British. And they probably introduced British football teams to them too. I don't see it too far-fetched. I think basketball is the only non-British sport that has managed to garner a following here.

But when you talk about music it's obvious the American influence is the biggest influence there. But it's 2 different aspects of our lives you're comparing now. Apples and oranges.
yngwie
post May 10 2008, 11:58 AM

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england exports virtually none(except beckham, woody, robby and owen was a thing of the past) to other football playing countries. while there are a lot of sa, eu, us, ac, australia and even asian player playing their trade in england.
lack of international exposed maybe one of the reason that caused the england's national team downfall..... well i've never been a fan of 'em, anyway.
at any rate, blatter's move to limit the number of foreign players will not be able to help the england team. but certain top 4 club may suffer.
it's up to engayland player to up the ante,clicking as a team and being more competitive in international level.


m o m o
post May 10 2008, 12:25 PM

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QUOTE(yngwie @ May 10 2008, 11:58 AM)
england exports virtually none(except beckham, woody, robby and owen was a thing of the past) to other football playing countries. while there are a lot of sa, eu, us, ac, australia and even asian player playing their trade in england.
lack of international exposed maybe one of the reason that caused the england's national team downfall..... well i've never been a fan of 'em, anyway.
at any rate,  blatter's move to limit the number of foreign players will not be able to help the england team. but certain top 4 club may suffer.
it's up to engayland player to up the ante,clicking as a team and being more competitive in international level.
*
Agreed, English / British players reluctance to move abroad is a problem.. even when they move, how many are deemed a success?

Recent times, Beckham and McManaman... Gazza was OK at Lazio... Rush didn't do well at Juventus... Owen and Woodgate had a Spanish nightmare... Sparky at Barca - no spark...

Things may change, but not any time soon coz the BPL is the top league at the moment, no one wants to leave the golden nest...
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post May 10 2008, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(verx @ May 9 2008, 03:43 PM)
We are largely influenced by our parents and grandparents and so on and so forth and they were largely influenced by the British. Is it a coincidence that our most popular sports are football, badminton and hockey? That's because those games were introduced to them by the British. And they probably introduced British football teams to them too. I don't see it too far-fetched. I think basketball is the only non-British sport that has managed to garner a following here.


You have a point though the Chinese might lay claim to having inventing those sports. Out of the sports you've mentioned I think it's safe to assume that only football has generated a large following. I don't know that many people who play or watch either badminton or hockey. Football as a sport may have been introduced by the English and given the league an advantage but one could still like the game and follow another league, much like yourself. Handball is another sport that is popular at school level, at least when I was still a student, but how many watch the handball leagues on TV? Participation is one thing but generating a spectator following is quite another. Futsal is an example of a sport that many people play, but seldom watch. I've been to the KL World 5's and you'd expect the stadium to be full given the number of people that I've seen at any one tournament. I for one hardly played football, wasn't really good at it but I love watching the game. Measures have been taken to enhance the experience for the viewer by incorporating elements like having more camera's to give viewers multiple angles, mic's by the sidelines so we can hear what is happening on the pitch, etc. The Premiership has taken it a step further by not only promoting the game but also the clubs and the players which helped. How do I know? Well it may be a guess at this point and I'll leave you to make your own mind up but how many people do you know wear football jerseys but don't watch games?

QUOTE(verx @ May 9 2008, 03:43 PM)
But when you talk about music it's obvious the American influence is the biggest influence there. But it's 2 different aspects of our lives you're comparing now. Apples and oranges.
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America's influence transcends just music if you ask me. Look at our current political scene. Why are people now increasingly vocal? Why are we now taking to the streets and protesting for an open democracy, transparency and such? I seriously doubt we were brought up to challenge or oppose but rather to conform.


Added on May 10, 2008, 12:32 pm
QUOTE(m o m o @ May 10 2008, 12:25 PM)
Agreed, English / British players reluctance to move abroad is a problem.. even when they move, how many are deemed a success?

Recent times, Beckham and McManaman... Gazza was OK at Lazio... Rush didn't do well at Juventus... Owen and Woodgate had a Spanish nightmare... Sparky at Barca - no spark...

Things may change, but not any time soon coz the BPL is the top league at the moment, no one wants to leave the golden nest...
*
From an English perspective, I'd say Chris Waddle had the most success abroad. He was adored at Marseille. From a British perspective, I'd say it was Tony Cascarino. He scored an amazing 61 goals in 84 games for Marseille though they were in the 2nd Division at some point.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: May 10 2008, 12:32 PM

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