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Renovations 3-phase wiring

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cherroy
post Jan 7 2011, 05:04 PM

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QUOTE(edwardsiow @ Jan 4 2011, 11:28 AM)
I heard the contractor said that 3 phase will save more electricity.. is it true?
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Not true
If said 3 phase motor is more efficient than single phase motor, then yes, but this is different scope.

QUOTE(numbertwo @ Jan 5 2011, 10:12 AM)
the other advantage i heard is that if your area is blackout your house will still be lighted up as the current will be drawn from another 'line'...
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It just depended which phase you are on.
Like you living room is on Phase 1,
Room is on phase 2,
Then if TNB supply phase 1 is blackout
Your room still light up.
But definitely your living room will be blackout as well.

Btw, your house electric appliance only can use 1 phase. You cannot use 3 phase electricity with single phase motor for your electrical appliances.
You only tap one of the phase to it only.

QUOTE(edwardsiow @ Jan 6 2011, 12:38 PM)
one of the contractor said because 3 phase can load more in one circuit, like a bus, can bring more people at one round compare to the car, so save electricity.......

pening @@

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Yes, load more, because got 3 wires coming in. biggrin.gif

but your total amount of W usage also more.
And TNB charge you based on W.

No one can defy the basic science of electricity law, Watt = Amp x voltage.

Most important understanding about 3 phase even your house is equiped with 3 phase, you only tap one of the phase to your socket, to your light.
You cannot light up with 3 phase. laugh.gif

3 phase is used because 1 phase is not enough for your house total load. As standard voltage is 240v, and with the wire size capability, there is a limit how much the power delivered.
Remember Watt = Amp x voltage (240)
if you use too many electrical appliance, it just mean you need higher Amp, and there is a limit how much the amp can be carried in a wire size, before it overloaded.

whether 3 phase or 1 phase, all consideration is about how much your load is.

Btw, 3 phase comes with 3 wires.
It is just like single phase x 3, just angular issue is different.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Jan 7 2011, 05:37 PM
cherroy
post Jan 24 2011, 11:28 AM

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QUOTE(yi_min82 @ Jan 23 2011, 12:28 PM)
sorry because of my poor english.
some ppl they may have misunderstand something.
if u using a 2.5hp or more than that air-con, pls choose any 3-phase type air-con,more efficensy n save money.some ppl they though their house is 3-phase,than they go n buy a 2.5hp single-phase air-con will save money,thats wrong. u need to c the eer value, some product if even u install an 1hp + 1.5hp = 2.5hp , the electricity more saving than the 2.5hp 1phase, n if u can ,install an 2.5hp 3phases type u can get the more eer value.
y ppl say that 3 phase wiring is more saving form 1 phase?the waste of energy from wire heat
first ,u have to determine how is the maximum amp of ur house will use?..mostly electric appl will show at behind sticker. add up all.
if a max of 60A , and ur house is wiring with 65A wiring, n sometime u feel the wiring will get a bit warm or hot, that the part thats waste energy, so, use an 100A type wiring will save them.always remember, any part of wiring or switch or mcb,elcb,rcb ,fuse bla bla, that all are warm,hot are adnormal, n wasting energy, the cause was:
1.wrong amp rating,wire, mcb,elcb,fuse bla bla.
2. connector connection not tie enough.
3. short circuit bc of mice bit,moist.

so if a 100A of max how?(is that ur house is a factory?).. apply 3phase to dist them.

every house is 3phase ready(even 100years ago), unless the contractor using only a main wire pull from room1 to roon N. bc most of our nation resident using 3phase for dist current only, but not using 3 phase appliance..
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The efficiency of 3 phase motor is about how 3 phase motor work vs single phase motor, not primary wire heat issue.

Most residential house is not equiped with 3 phase, you need to apply from TNB only then they will pull the wire.

cherroy
post Jan 25 2011, 12:47 AM

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QUOTE(yi_min82 @ Jan 24 2011, 05:01 PM)
sorry about my language.
wat i mean 3phase in our resident house is not actually with 3phase wiring,it only reach until the Db box. actual 3p wiring for appliances had to have at lease 4 wire (r,s,t,ground),sometime it add 1 more (r,s,t,n,ground),not like 3wire(L,g,n).
eg.acson or york cassette type 4hp.
eg.ceiling type or concealed type
mostly they install at living room.

3phase 4hp, n 1phase 4hp, witch one current using more ?1phase right? so the current flow more n generate heat or lost energy because of resistance. btw,yup, its not primary,but second smile.gif. so conclosion, 3phase save more with 3phase appliances.
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Most people residental house do not need a 4HP air-cond.
&
That's why you rarely see 1~2HP air-cond using 3 phase one.

3 phase use less current, but x3 in power calculation. tongue.gif

Yes, 3phase will be more efficient, but 3phase doesn't mean your electricity become 1/3.
Power = amp x voltage, and each phase count.

3p wiring will cause you a bom first, instead of saving. tongue.gif

3p primary is all about high power consumption needed.
cherroy
post Jan 26 2011, 11:35 PM

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QUOTE(yi_min82 @ Jan 26 2011, 09:49 AM)
"About the energy loss via resistance, I am not too sure about that."
resistance in the wire. most contractor cone ppl with the low quality n small diameter wire, it increase the resistance. cause it generate heat, waste the energy n make the wire life shorter. Or , the user didnt mention to the contractor, after that they use it with high current appliances like water boiler, high power entertainment set, laser printer, hair dryer and etc. P.S. notebook consume very low power only.
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It is unrelated to 3 phase discussion already.

If a contract want to con ppl with low quality, smaller diameter wire in single phase, the contract also can con people with even smaller dimater in 3 Phase installation as well.

Nothing to do with whether a residential house need 3P or not, or 3P motor is more efficiency or not.
cherroy
post Feb 24 2011, 11:39 PM

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QUOTE(numbertwo @ Feb 24 2011, 05:01 PM)
for a small family (i' mean 2 kids and your the other half) it really serves no purpose..except for one advantage whereby when your area is trip , houses with 3-phase wiring may still draw current from other source and light up your house! how cool eh? So is a 'cool factor too!
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When blackout, the likelyhood is always all 3 phase blackout. tongue.gif

Generally, wireman only tap one of the 3 phase for your lighting only.

Like upstair use blue, downstair use yellow.


Added on February 24, 2011, 11:42 pm
QUOTE(jojozep @ Feb 24 2011, 04:51 PM)
I think the 3 phase thingy is a only 'fear factor' and will not burn the house down..
True or not? if overload..it will trip...just an inconvenience.
BUT the chance of tripping is slim...unless you are running a hotel in the house.

also preventive measures of tripping like

buy aircond invertor type- less current needed
buy AAA type appliances
switch on air-con not all at once and not all at 16 degree..

correct or not..?
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Tripping or not, you can count the workload of device.
It is not about chance or prevent tripping.

Once your total load over the single phase can delivery, a 3 phase is needed, as simply as that.

It is not reducing chance of tripping or not.
Once overload, tripped.

Your MCB got max load factor, aka the max amp you can use, more than that, it tripped.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Feb 24 2011, 11:42 PM
cherroy
post Nov 4 2012, 06:13 PM

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QUOTE(georgeOYS @ Nov 3 2012, 09:08 PM)
my house have 5 aircon and 2heaters, but then we still using single phase only. i dun think such few electrical items will need to use 3-phase.
btw, hows the 3phase wall socket?? is it all sockets in ur house been changed to commando plug socket??


Added on November 3, 2012, 9:10 pm
so how is the wall socket looks like?? is all of the socket have to change to commando plug wall socket??
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It depends on Amp drawn.
Not about few electrical items.

A single phase can load up about 50-60A.

So you can count the electrical item need for the Amp.

A water heater (depends on type installed), can draw 1000-3000W, which translate about (if use 3000W) 3000/240v = 12.5A
So for 2 3000W water heater can consume 25A already.

1HP = 0.75KW , which require at least 3.125A.
For 5 x 1Hp require about 16A already.

If using 1.5Hp x 5 = 23.44A,

Both added together 1.5Hp + 3 x 3000KW and if using simultaneously means about 50A, not yet counting refrigerator, washing machine, and others.

Water heater/heating element, and those appliance with motor, generally are the major consumption of the electricity, so people generally target on those to count.
Lighting like a 36W light tube consume 36/240v = 0.15A only, so again can count how many Amp needed.

Can always count on your own. Very simple calculation only.

Generally if the house needs more than 50A, generally advisable got for 3 phase.

3 phase incoming doesn't mean we use 3 phase, all out household/socket is using single phase only, just you draw the current from different phase.
Just like A aircond using one phase, while B water heater using another phase, while socket using another phase.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Nov 4 2012, 06:14 PM
cherroy
post Aug 13 2014, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(supersound @ Aug 13 2014, 01:43 AM)
Is on the TNB application form on the requirement.
And insurance company will use this form and fire department's report to decide pay or not pay in case of fire.
Also, I do know that with single phase I can run 5-6 air conds without problem but when something happens I don't want insurance company have an excuse to deny a claim.
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1HP = 0.75KW

750/240 = 3~4A,

Safety margin let say 25%, make it 5A per air cond

5 x 6 = 30A.

Still within the capability of a single phase that is 50A.

You cannot overload the single phase, but there is no rule said single phase house being equiped with 6 air-cond then may void the fire insurance coverage.


cherroy
post Aug 13 2014, 11:47 AM

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QUOTE(supersound @ Aug 13 2014, 11:43 AM)
You are right, but again TNB already stated the guideline we "should" upgrade to 3 phase once we exceeding 3 air conds.
Your calculation are assuming that it is good quality of copper wire being used. It not even taking in to account of the qaulity, length and efficiency of the wire. Where's the heat generated calculation?
In some sense indeed we can't overload a single phase, but we can overload the wire which later overload the main fuse.
For sure insurance company never stated the rule on this as they release the claim's payment based on official report by government. Have you ever claim insurance before? The company need 1 single word only to deny a claim.
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I would like to see the guidelines/rules state in this. smile.gif
Ty.
cherroy
post Aug 19 2014, 09:52 AM

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QUOTE(supersound @ Aug 18 2014, 09:35 PM)
But will using 3 phase makes our bill cheaper? I doubt so, since the meter are digital and no other independent party can verify that. 

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3 phase or 1 phase has nothing to do with bill amount.
Electrical bill is about KWhr, nothing to do with phase.

1 phase with 3 aircond that using total 6KW
compared to
3 phase split into 3 aircond that using 2KW on each phase.

The total amount after 1 hour of usage, both will register 6KWhr.
cherroy
post Oct 14 2015, 04:44 PM

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QUOTE(Piris @ Oct 14 2015, 04:36 PM)
Thank you supersound for the advice. When i say 3 phase ready it means that the tnb meter is 3 phase ready but i think the wiring  in the house is single. Apparently i have to redo due to faulty and horrible wiring job done during renovation.

The question now, i got some feedback from electrician that i have to have 3 phase wiring still otherwise it wont be safe. Is that true? Of course it comes back to costing, my impression 3 phase would be way much expensive compared to single. Any advice? Thank you sir.
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If your total usage of your all electricity appliances is not exceeding the threshold recommended for single phase, then 3 phase is not needed.

No such thing 3 phase is safer than 1 phase.

 

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