Bending or mixing genres is not a problem. In The Prestige's case, its the way it was executed. I'll explain later. Now, a better word for 'rules' is 'internal logic'. Lets use your examples for the following..

Its fantasy. Its a universe where there are trolls, goblins and magic. Pulling out the undead does not break its own internal logic neither does it stick out like a sore thumb from the other elements of the movie.

The targeting computer missed. But the Force has been established as this powerful mystic erm....force that can do wonders if used by a person attuned to it. Again, no internal logic (rules) broken.

Another example. The Good the Bad and the Ugly. Throughout the movie, its established that the characters can only see what the camera sees. This allows the movie to take on a myth-like feel, where characters can suddenly appear without the onscreen characters noticing them until they actually appear. Remember how the protagonists can stumble upon a huge Union army only when they are literally on top of it? Or how Blondie and Tuco, while digging for the chest do not notice Angel Eyes until he reaches them and throws in another spade?

So likewise, in The Prestige's case, the movie is set up as a magic trick in itself. Keeping with that analogy, using the sci-fi twist as its 'prestige' is akin to a magician sawing a woman into half and subsequently reproducing a different whole woman.




I personally do not think Nolan is even in Spielberg's league. Yes, he does seem to get pretty good scripts and he gets terrific performances out of his actors. However, there is just something simply average with his ability as a visual storyteller. That, is a fundamental disadvantage I'm not sure that can actually be 'learnt'. I think he is one of the decent new directors today, but thats pretty faint praise.



Precisely. In fact, you could even say its because the sci-fi is brought in in an absolutely sudden manner. Previously we got all the details on the tricks and suddenly we have this super machine which creates duplicates by zapping a lightning bolt at it? And the fact that the ending is a huge mess of twists sledgehammering away at you.

This post has been edited by BurgaFlippinMan: May 1 2008, 02:31 PM

Hey, you know what they always say - rules are meant to be broken The fact The Prestige broke its what you called "internal logic" wasn't uncool really, I felt it was the perfect ending.

On the contrary, I think it is possibly the one rule that when broken is 100% detrimental to the film. It never fails to come off as a cop out, always giving off the vibe that they've written themselves into a corner. Its a deus ex machina with the added 'bonus' of totally rendering the film's world useless, especially serious if done at a pivotal moment. Therefore I found The Prestige to be entertaining up till the sci-fi twist, where it simply went bad. I find it uncool, messy, desperate and annoyingly unsubtle. I tried to watch it the second time, after which I just thought (and still think) it was a rubbish film.

This post has been edited by BurgaFlippinMan: May 1 2008, 02:27 PM

Nolan is one of the most refreshing director that has appeared in a long time. Surely it will be unfair to compair him Spielberg, Coppola, Lucas (students of Kurosawa I might add, or rather John Ford since Kurosawa was inspired by John Ford and Spielberg, Coppola, Lucas, and even Scorcese were inspired by Kurosawa.

Nolan is not one to follow the conventional studio methods of making movies.

He is first and foremost postmodern. In his movies, he explores fragmentation of time, perception, explores how decisions made and how incidents can change someone, and features very real characters with very real (albeit dark) emotion in seemingly impossible situation.

To the casual viewers, his movies can be confusing and also at the same time looks badly edited.

To film students, his work is great for study and discussion and meant for repeated viewing.

I mean, when I first watched Memento, I could not quite get it. I understood the ending but still it feels like I am missing alot there. The second and third viewing it just gets better and better because you start to fill in the gaps.

With Prestige it is amazing how you will start off rooting for one person and by the time the movie ends, you would have switch sides for a few times because as you get into the movie, you start to see the characters for who they really are.

I mean, his movies aren't for everyone. The themes are dark, his characters are dark and not easy for everyone to relate. I mean we all have our dark side but how many are actually willing to explore that side in all of us? Most will just push it aside because we prefer to look at the world full of sunshine and happiness and all the sugar and spice and all things nice.

For those brave enough to explore that part of us, it is easy to relate to his characters because reality is, the world is not always sunshine and happiness and by the time we die, we will very likely have experience or witness more horrors and sadness than we would like to admit.

I think it is wrong to view batman as a superhero movie. The intention was never to make a traditional superhero movie. The approach is more akin to Casino Royale, taking a popular franchise that is running the risk of self parodying and bring it back to basics and Batman Begins did just that.

There is no place for flashy action scenes and big explosions. The action sequence in Batman Begins works for what it is, realistic and straight to the point.

Anything more would have spoilt the realistic approach they are going for.

I mean Spielberg is a great director but he is also a very safe director. He definitely has the ability to tackle of very dark and 'unsafe' subjects but most of the time, he rather take on the mantle of the family movie director and that's how most of his movies are, very family oriented. Flashy, happy, and very likeable and heroic protagonist.

I mean, he did make Schindler's List, Minority Report, and Munich.

My favourite work of his is Minority Report and even though most would say that is his darkest movie, the story is much tone down from the original source material.

So yes, Spielberg is definitely a great director and I will watch his movies but always with the knowledge that he will neatly wrap things up for me and the ending will never be too sad.

With Nolan, I can always expect the unexpected and the ending will make me want to walk into the cinema and watch the movie again and again.

I predict Nolan with change the industry soon, like how Orsan Welles changed the industry with Citizen Kane.

ps-it will be also be crazy to Nolan to Spielberg and Welles success relative to their age because the industry just doesn't work that way anymore today.

For the few movies (six so far) that Nolan has made so far, he is definitely showing tremendous improvement each time.

I think you've gone slightly offtangent here. I repeat, my main bone to pick with Nolan is his ability as a visual storyteller, the most fundamental element of the film language. I have zero complaints about his content, actor direction and choice of material. And no, Batman Begins has poor action (or more precisely, the execution of the action) no matter what you say. Its sequences were clunky, clumsy and workman-like. They had no rhythm, no 'beat'. Yes, its a reboot like Casino Royale, but the Bond movie had great action sequences, so it can't hide behind the 'realistic' excuse.

This post has been edited by BurgaFlippinMan: May 1 2008, 02:37 PM

One more thing to add, The Prestige was based on a novel and while the movie differs in some ways, the sci-fi element is still in the novel and I would actually say tone down greatly in the movie.

Also just to put the sci fi deus ex machina matrix ending issue to rest, one word, Tesla.

That is a man historically known for inventing stuff way ahead of his time. Hence, the fact that he actually invented a machine that teleports (or in this case duplicates (never his original intention)) should not be too far out from this movie internal logic. It still fits.

In the movie there was a part that says something along the lines of "Tesla does what magicians are pretending to be doing"

so somehow a sudden miracle is ok? just that they dont break the internal logic?

personally i dont see the problem with it, its a good twist to me. but i do get your point, the thing is prestige did it in a very very mellow sense. unless you look hard and pick at it you wont notice the logic issue, its not like suddenly aliens came down and gave him a duplicating gun. also if you do follow tesla, he was proclaiming about inventing death rays way before people knew what are they. we are talking about an inventor thats sooo ahead of this time that the americans went as far as to steal his work, so a break in internal logic is kinda blurred.

regardless of what you say, comparing norlan v Spielberg is kinda wrong. one cant expect all directors to follow a time frame of another, norlans career is well, just starting. and to expect him to churn out movies the exact time frame of another director would be kinda unfair. maybe after he has had a career for sometime until we have seen a lot of what he is capable of then we can come to some justification. simply put you are comparing a potential rookie to a legend.

This post has been edited by +3kk!: May 1 2008, 02:49 PM

Welles' debut is probably the best in cinematic history. Sadly, he didn't emulate what he did with Kane in his later years though. I hope it doesn't happen with Nolan, cz he's been improving, although slowly.


Comparing Nolan and Welles has now brought this thread from New York to the moon

This post has been edited by Makakeke: May 1 2008, 02:59 PM

Actually the sci-fi element was already introduced beforehand when we got to know Tesla and his teleportation device, so you can't say the 'sci-fi'ness of it was too sudden.

You cant say Borden's twist broke the film's 'internal logic', that twist was simple but terrific. I also disagree that Angier's twist breaks the logic entirely. The movie did tap into the eccentricities of Tesla's works way before the climax came didnt it? What you are saying is that every movie should lay it's foundation and rules at the very start of the film. The Prestige didn't.

But we have really gone off topic. I still dont get how nolan's visuals dont' flow' right.

me too, like batman. ok the fight scenes were off beat (wont that be due to the action choreographer?) but in a sense we did have quite a few good visual feasts, take for example

the training scene on the ice lake
the fight at raz al gul's palace,
the chase scene

also in prestige

- the light bulb garden
- the storage tanks at the end


they dont seem out of place to me

Welles is fully capable of bettering Kane but sadly, with the flop that Kane was back then, Welles never did get the same freedom he had from the studios while doing Kane again.

I don't see how the undead is really a sudden miracle, if thats what you meant. In any case however, I don't like to lay down hard rules as a I believe what ultimately makes a film work is not what it is about, but how it is about. Its just a fact that in any art form there are 'rules' that are hard to break without ruining it.

I don't like to overanalyze films, so when I b**** about something its usually something that really sticks out imo.

I only used Spielberg as a relative point to compare the visual storytelling of the films. It wasn't I who brought up the argument that Steven is a seasoned director. And its also fact that the 'legend' made a thriller, a drama, a family film and the definition of a popcorn adventure (all legendary) when he was just a relative rookie. But thats besides the point, since I do consider there to be generally Spielberg, Hitchcock, Kubrick, Scorsese and then everybody else in their dust.

My memory of the film is rather fuzzy, but the most notable thing I remember about pre-twist Tesla was his introduction of the AC thing at the fair. If I remember correctly, isn't the duplication machine actually the teleportation machine (which iirc was sort of a hoax by Bale to drive Jackman nuts) gone wrong?

Hmmm, try distilling the films down to the very basics of the film art form, the ability of its visuals to tell a story. Do that with a Nolan film, and then try it with a Spielberg, Leone, Lucas or heck a Shyamalan (since his movies are so silent generally) and maybe you'll understand what I'm trying to say. But then again, you study math all day. (sorry but I simply can't resist)


Its a bit complicated to explain. If you take a step back and look at whats being done, on paper the setup of the action and the dynamics between the characters involved should be fine. But it was the end result, the presentation of the action, that was pretty disastrous. Surely the fault clearly lies with the director? Likewise its not the individual shots or editing choices that are poor, but the overall result once you put it together as a whole. I'm sure you've felt and seen it before, in any field, some people just have it, some don't.

Again, I'm not saying Nolan is a piss poor director. I look forward to and enjoy his films (at least on first watch mostly). I do get the feeling however that its the other aspects of the production where he excels in which props up the poor visual storytelling. Its an awkwardness I've always felt watching his films and only recently have I managed to somehow put a finger on it. Having said that, does Nolan have any musical education background or inclination? Because that will bring me to my next point if he doesnt...

This post has been edited by BurgaFlippinMan: May 1 2008, 04:16 PM

well how you put it, the undead ended the battle very abruptly.

all the people you took into consideration have got a long career or like erm passed away d.

man you are one dude thats just hard to please music next? god. you might even come to the extent of arguing that norlan is not as good cause his actors look one direction a little too often.

Well surely you don't expect the living to stand a chance against the undead? In any case, the undead is a bit of a deus ex machina, which usually isn't a good thing, but it doesn't make it worse by breaking internal logic.

My point is that a good visual storytelling is apparent in any of their movies, whatever the material and regardless of whether its from the later years or from their early stages. Its an innate thing.

Actually, I'm pretty easily pleased. I love The Terminal, I enjoyed Fantastic Four: Silver Surfer (but hated the first) and Spiderman 3 entertained me.

But anyway, its an interesting fact if you read composer interviews that its often mentioned that a director with a musical education or a natural inclination tends to present them with film with a well felt rhythm. Its also interesting to note that all the great directors have a marvelous understanding of what music can do for a movie. You may argue that Nolan's films do not need much music, and thats true. But it doesnt mean it doesnt need good music. Shyamalan's films have lots of silence and not much music, but they are all pretty awesomely scored by JNH.

This post has been edited by BurgaFlippinMan: May 1 2008, 04:34 PM

easily pleased but have to find fault with norlan?

hahahaha................dude, tho most of us in this thread take our movies seriously. i have to say one thing

just watch the damn show

Yes, the teleportation device turned out, unintentionally, to be a duplication machine, but you didnt know Bale sent him on a wild goose chase. Or at least you couldn't really figure out whether Tesla really did invent some super machine, or whether it was just a grand hoax.

The movie may have started out strictly rooted in reality, but there is one scene which I think is pivotal in this discussion. The scene where Sarah takes Borden up to her apartment, says he cant come inside, and we see Borden walking down the stairs, and the next thing we see is Borden magically appearing inside the apartment. What went through your mind right after that scene? Because it was that scene that made me second guess the nature of the film... There couldn't be anything that could make him appear in there. It was impossible. Yet the thought of him having a twin never once flashed in my mind. The movie basically gives it to you right here, and we somehow dont take it.

The Pledge, Turn, Prestige setup of the whole film applies to the Borden twist. Angier in his quest to gain revenge and outdo Borden deviates from this unwritten 'rule' of stage magic when he chances upon the duplication machine. The 'cheat' you refer to is actually Angier cheating in the context of the film, and we see the horror he inflicted upon himself (killing a duplicate in every performance). Plus, the scene where he first duplicates himself and then shoots him is tragic stuff, because we know that the duplicate is just as much an Angier as the real Angier is. Of course, I still get it that this doesn't explain how tesla suddenly managed to come up with a device like that, but seeing that the guy's inventions are shrouded in mystery anyway, I'm not gonna pick at it.

I will have a better look when I next see any of nolan's film to try to get hold of what you mean by the damn 'flow'.

I don't mean to come across as purposely finding fault with Nolan. You could also say that I sometimes find Spielberg too sentimental, Lucas too self indulgent, Singer too bland, De Niro too lazy...but you get the idea.

Honestly I can't recall that scene, forgettable as the movie was.


Didn't Bale say so in his diary?



The 'cheat' I refer to is the story cheating the audience. Its gives the same bad vibe as the Keyser Soyze in the Usual Suspects, where the film manipulates the audience solely for the purpose of manipulation and then leaves the audience unsure of what is real and what is not. It makes the film feel like a waste of time. In any case, the further twists after the sci-fi one did nothing for the movie and I was just waiting for it to end, that tiresome it had gotten.


Burga - going off to watch AI and then to play GTAIV for the rest of the night.

This post has been edited by BurgaFlippinMan: May 1 2008, 06:11 PM

Cop out spotted.

j/k

you know, that is not being eaasy to please. its like everyone you have something ti go against

dude, relax and enjoy the movie

You guys are so sad, it's a public holiday and and you all are perpetually reloading this page at least I have a test tomorrow

This post has been edited by Makakeke: May 1 2008, 06:43 PM