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Complaints warned for a non-existing thread, so the smart

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TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 01:42 PM, updated 18y ago

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i got a warning courtesy of mr goldfries for this link.
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/656602

the thread has been deleted and i do not know wat thread it is. he has not replied my pm and has so nicely lumped me together with the rest of the 'i-hate-goldfries' group when all i want is just to know wat was the reason (wats the thread abt will do just fine, thank u).

so mods/staff/admin can delete thread, warn the TS of those threads n not bother to tell them wat thread it was?
n if the high ups expect us to know from the thread number alone wat topic it is, LYN is seriously f-ed up.
Ah WanG
post Mar 28 2008, 01:44 PM

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The thread title is

"si beh tulan, work induced stress "

QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 21 2008, 05:10 PM)
I haven't had a good day at work today. Work's piling up and I am still stuck at the same project from morning till now. Best part is I dont know how to do it. Got to work around it and yadda yadda yadda.
Then this doink from some investment co calls me.

hello ms amy, tis is ms annoying fr lousyInvestment firm. can i take 2 minutes of ur time?
for wat?
would like to meet up with u for abt 15 minutes to talk to u abt our investment plan.do u currently hv any insurance or investment plan?
i dont have money
er ok. i am sure you have some. you know you are at risk without having any plans
i dont have money
what do u mean  u dont have money?
i dont have money
why do you say so? i am sure you have some and you dont want to risk losing them
whats there to risk if i have nothing to lose?

knnccb.tns.wth.wtf.........
stress gila babi sial.......................

ok, u may leave now.
*
Got it now?
TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 01:46 PM

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thank you very much. although i still think that it was a very idiotic move for someone to give a warn to a PUBLICLY non-existing thread.
b00n
post Mar 28 2008, 01:47 PM

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errr...it's your own post and thread no?....... whistling.gif
WaCKy-Angel
post Mar 28 2008, 01:49 PM

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lol that thread....i remembered.

well well well.. no more /b/ thread now i guess.
gkl83
post Mar 28 2008, 01:49 PM

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foul languages... sweat.gif
more than enough to be warn...
WaCKy-Angel
post Mar 28 2008, 01:49 PM

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QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 01:46 PM)
thank you very much. although i still think that it was a very idiotic move for someone to give a warn to a PUBLICLY non-existing thread.
*
The thread is deleted/invisibled.

dun angry leng lui, PM me ur blog so i can read your stories.
p!ssed
post Mar 28 2008, 01:50 PM

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wacky, can u pm me ur msn? i can't pm anymore... they limit it...
have something to ask u in private
TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 01:54 PM

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QUOTE(b00n @ Mar 28 2008, 01:47 PM)
errr...it's your own post and thread no?....... whistling.gif
*
sorry but i got better things to do than to remember my thread numbers. tq

QUOTE(WaCKy-Angel @ Mar 28 2008, 01:49 PM)
lol that thread....i remembered.

well well well.. no more /b/ thread now i guess.
*
i didnt even know tht fell into the /b/ thread category.

QUOTE(gkl83 @ Mar 28 2008, 01:49 PM)
foul languages... sweat.gif
more than enough to be warn...
*
rclxub.gif so many ppl using all the bad words n i kena warn for tht? n since when is the letters k, n, c, b are bad letters? tongue.gif
oh well, i rest my case. hopefully some idiotic would be better in the future before warning/banning other people
victor_hoh
post Mar 28 2008, 01:58 PM

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TS, goldfries deleted your retarded thread and give you a warning. That's what a moderator does. You are being ridiculous here.
dattebayo
post Mar 28 2008, 01:58 PM

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sometimes the double standard is really there, when it comes to foul words posting. I suggest either the entire LYN team to implement more lenient policy on bad words, which is only take action to people who intentially bypass the f-word, and other improper reference for genitals.

Words like wtf, knn, farking, they should be judged by the context, not by the word itself.

ps. I ve seen empire23 using these vulgars at least once, but has any actions on him?
awh85
post Mar 28 2008, 01:59 PM

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i also feel a.b.c. about d.e.f.

not to say that i x.y.z anyone, but sometimes i really get q.r.s with some of the e.f.g's here.

erm. is this considered profanity?
victor_hoh
post Mar 28 2008, 02:00 PM

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QUOTE(dattebayo @ Mar 28 2008, 01:58 PM)
sometimes the double standard is really there, when it comes to foul words posting. I suggest either the entire LYN team to implement more lenient policy on bad words, which is only take action to people who intentially bypass the f-word, and other improper reference for genitals.

Words like wtf, knn, farking, they should be judged by the context, not by the word itself.

ps. I ve seen empire23 using these vulgars at least once, but has any actions on him?
*
our lady TS here created a thread just to spit out profanity with no real value/meaning/watever. She could have done that to his friends/diary/watever, but yet she chose to do it here. So that is her problem.
malaysianPotato
post Mar 28 2008, 02:01 PM

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QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 01:54 PM)
sorry but i got better things to do than to remember my thread numbers. tq
i didnt even know tht fell into the /b/ thread category.
rclxub.gif so many ppl using all the bad words n i kena warn for tht? n since when is the letters k, n, c, b are bad letters? tongue.gif
oh well, i rest my case. hopefully some idiotic would be better in the future before warning/banning other people
*
Well, if you put it that way, FU STFU etc shouldn't be considered profane either right? So if a call you a F'in dk suckin SOB, that's alright? Ofcourse not. In the same way what you used isn't alright. We don't have to tell you not to do it, or give you chances, it's pretty clearly written in the rules and regulations, if you didn't read the rules... That's your fault not ours, we can't go telling every member one by one not to do this or not to do that.

You kena warned because it so happens that your thread had an interesting name which led mods to view it, if you're unhappy with how other's are using profanities, report them.


b00n
post Mar 28 2008, 02:02 PM

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How many posters in LYN or post in a minute in LYN.
Than see how many mods are around.....
Than justify the amount of threads or posts per mod.
So what if they missed one or even 10.

It's only upon reporting of post thus gets special attention by the mods or they so happen to be in that thread.

Yet ppl are blaming mods as if they are God/Gods which is omnipresence.
malaysianPotato
post Mar 28 2008, 02:03 PM

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QUOTE(b00n @ Mar 28 2008, 02:02 PM)
How many posters in LYN or post in a minute in LYN.
Than see how many mods are around.....
Than justify the amount of threads or posts per mod.
So what if they missed one or even 10.

It's only upon reporting of post thus gets special attention by the mods or they so happen to be in that thread.

Yet ppl are blaming mods as if they are God/Gods which is omnipresence.
*
Shhh, logic and common sense not allowed on the internet!
TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 02:09 PM

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QUOTE(victor_hoh @ Mar 28 2008, 01:58 PM)
TS, goldfries deleted your retarded thread and give you a warning. That's what a moderator does. You are being ridiculous here.
*
you dont get the point now,do you? if he deletes my thread and tells me exactly which thread n wat it was about, fine. at least i know. wat he did was just give me the link of which he has clearly DELETED.so wats the point? if i give you a car and tell you to go to a destination without giving you the keys or petrol and you dont have access to those essentials, how are you going to start your journey?

QUOTE(victor_hoh @ Mar 28 2008, 02:00 PM)
our lady TS here created a thread just to spit out profanity with no real value/meaning/watever. She could have done that to his friends/diary/watever, but yet she chose to do it here. So that is her problem.
*
my problem is not about being warned. it's abt the manner it was all done.

QUOTE(malaysianPotato @ Mar 28 2008, 02:01 PM)
Well, if you put it that way, FU STFU etc shouldn't be considered profane either right? So if a call you a F'in dk suckin SOB, that's alright? Ofcourse not. In the same way what you used isn't alright. We don't have to tell you not to do it, or give you chances, it's pretty clearly written in the rules and regulations, if you didn't read the rules... That's your fault not ours, we can't go telling every member one by one not to do this or not to do that.

You kena warned because it so happens that your thread had an interesting name which led mods to view it, if you're unhappy with how other's are using profanities, report them.
*
fyi, my cussing wasn't directed at anyone in LYN in particular. if u want to say that i've broken the rules by shouting profanity, fine. i am guilty as charged.

as again, why is it that people are missing out on the point of this thread? if ah wang had not posted wat my thread is abt , would you all be bashing me now? tats all i wantedto know, thats what i was denied off, n thats what i am pissed abt, its not the part i am being warned that i m dissatisfied

itts NOT KNOWING wat i was warned for tht got me ticked off. to all the idiots out there who want to continue flaming me coz i m 'unhappy abt being warned', i suggest tht u should go back to school and get your education basics.
b00n
post Mar 28 2008, 02:10 PM

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QUOTE(malaysianPotato @ Mar 28 2008, 02:03 PM)
Shhh, logic and common sense not allowed on the internet!
*

lol.....maybe should consider putting that in the FAQ since a lot of questions raised this couple of weeks.
EG: Why mods/staffs/admins reacted on my post but not on other posters?

But hecks....who reads the FAQ?!....

rclxm9.gif

TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 02:11 PM

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QUOTE(b00n @ Mar 28 2008, 02:10 PM)
lol.....maybe should consider putting that in the FAQ since a lot of questions raised this couple of weeks.
EG: Why mods/staffs/admins reacted on my post but not on other posters?

But hecks....who reads the FAQ?!....

rclxm9.gif
*
i second tht
dattebayo
post Mar 28 2008, 02:15 PM

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do FTW considered profanity? rolleyes.gif

why not u guys take the context of the vulgar words used before passing judgment? I believe in the 21st century, very few people will actually take the offense when someone uttering f-words for instance, as long as the f- isn't directed to any females you know then who cares ? laugh.gif

its the context that matters , the words like WTF isn't even about sex, somemore it's in its abbreviated form. Just like the KNN in the TS' thread, no one would be bothered oher than the mods, since TS isn't scolding our mothers wat doh.gif

I would agree if there is stricter rules on anti-vulgar implemented in RWI or other post counted subforums, but to thoroughly ban the vulgarities in kopitiam, it will just burden the mods and inciting more hatreds.

Like I said, take actions towards those who use the foul words to directly insult other members, but lenient towards those use them to express dissatisfaction on matters, organization and government icon_rolleyes.gif
TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 02:18 PM

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QUOTE(dattebayo @ Mar 28 2008, 02:15 PM)
do FTW considered profanity? rolleyes.gif

why not u guys take the context of the vulgar words used before passing judgment? I believe in the 21st century, very few people will actually take the offense when someone uttering f-words for instance, as long as the f- isn't directed to any females you know then who cares ? laugh.gif

its the context that matters , the words like WTF isn't even about sex, somemore it's in its abbreviated form. Just like the KNN in the TS' thread, no one would be bothered oher than the mods, since TS isn't scolding our mothers wat doh.gif

I would agree if there is stricter rules on anti-vulgar implemented in RWI or other post counted subforums, but to thoroughly ban the vulgarities in kopitiam, it will just burden the mods and inciting more hatreds.

Like I said, take actions towards those who use the foul words to directly insult other members, but lenient towards those use them to express dissatisfaction on  matters, organization and government icon_rolleyes.gif
*
unfortunately mods are gettin over zealous now.
that reminds me
wat abt pix or gtfo? thts a very common phrase now in kopitiam
oh oh wat abt OMG OMG since G stands for God and its religious and we shouldnt have religion related threads?
b00n
post Mar 28 2008, 02:20 PM

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It was debated before this issue and I think the reason given is this:
QUOTE
1. It is unnecessary. Other words will serve you just as well.

2. LYN is viewed in offices, schools, colleges, universities and even at home where parents might not approve of foul language. Its important we have an image as a clean forum.

3. It is uncouth.

4. Plenty of people are misusing the leverage we've been giving so far.
Which 2 is valid. However 1 is still debatable.

"Take a gun and pull the trigger over your head to splash your weeny brain all over your small dirty floor" is more offensive than "F*ck you".
But generally if one felt offended by either of the statement, they can always click the "report" button.

This post has been edited by b00n: Mar 28 2008, 02:21 PM
TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE(b00n @ Mar 28 2008, 02:20 PM)
It was debated before this issue and I think the reason given is this:
Which 2 is valid. However 1 is still debatable.

"Take a gun and pull the trigger over your head to splash your weeny brain all over your small dirty floor" is more offensive than "F*ck you".
But generally if one felt offended by either of the statement, they can always click the "report" button.
*
hmmmm then maybe next time i should say
" do your mother, smelly bottom middle hole"
those are ordinary words
not political, religious
awh85
post Mar 28 2008, 02:28 PM

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but offensive. which is just about enough.
dattebayo
post Mar 28 2008, 02:29 PM

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QUOTE(b00n @ Mar 28 2008, 02:20 PM)
"Take a gun and pull the trigger over your head to splash your weeny brain all over your small dirty floor" is more offensive than "F*ck you".
But generally if one felt offended by either of the statement, they can always click the "report" button.
*
yea, some members do use that method of twisting words, unfortunately many members do not have decent command in english for able to do that, but the message carried is no lesser offense.

TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 02:31 PM

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QUOTE(awh85 @ Mar 28 2008, 02:28 PM)
but offensive. which is just about enough.
*
wats so offensive ?
ok fine
i give the polite version of it
throw your mother old shoe.
good enough for the kids trolling here?
awh85
post Mar 28 2008, 02:34 PM

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wah, good one there.
whoopa
post Mar 28 2008, 02:37 PM

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i think LYN has reached its peak is abt to go on the normal curve which is down ... or perhaps i should go on a reporting spree on report all those dudes in football lounge hahaha
kcng
post Mar 28 2008, 02:39 PM

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uh on, siowgirl is mad
smile.gif

the no profanities rules is being enforced more strictly now...
alot of people have been warned, even in other subforum
smile.gif
awh85
post Mar 28 2008, 02:40 PM

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enter any football club thread after the team loses any game and u can easily report half the posters there.
TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 02:40 PM

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QUOTE(kcng @ Mar 28 2008, 02:39 PM)
uh on, siowgirl is mad
smile.gif

the no profanities rules is being enforced more strictly now...
alot of people have been warned, even in other subforum
smile.gif
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uncle.u know wat i mad abt?
unknown warrior
post Mar 28 2008, 02:42 PM

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You guys should give siowgirl a break, she's harmless.
kcng
post Mar 28 2008, 02:43 PM

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QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 02:40 PM)
uncle.u know wat i mad abt?
*
yesh, i know.....

refer to this
QUOTE(malaysianPotato @ Mar 28 2008, 02:13 PM)
Adding to that...

Sometimes what one does wrong is so painfully obvious we don't feel the need to explain it to the user when we delete his post, invis it, flag him for warning, w/e.

Sometimes we just don't have the time, like if I'm working and just wanna check in on the forum for a minute and see something needs deleting, I delete it and go off. Or if we have 50 other reports and several pm's on other stuff, we just don't bother.

Most of what we flag for warning doesn't have judgement handed out instantly, it usually takes time for staff or admins to hand out warnings and they usually look into it before they warn, they don't just warn everyone we flag.

In the same way most users are too lazy to read the forum rules or even the terms and agreements ya'll agreed to, we mods can be lazy to explain why you had action taken against you. Fair deal IMO.
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malaysianPotato
post Mar 28 2008, 02:49 PM

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QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 02:31 PM)
wats so offensive ?
ok fine
i give the polite version of it
throw your mother old shoe.
good enough for the kids trolling here?
*
What's the difference? You're just re-wording it. How about I tell you to screw your mother and throw her off a bridge, no profanity there, but it's offensive right? Essentially the same thing as telling you to f' your mother and throw her off a f'in bridge. Only difference is my example translates from English to English while yours translates to Chinese.

Make sense?
TSsiowgirl
post Mar 28 2008, 02:50 PM

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QUOTE(kcng @ Mar 28 2008, 02:43 PM)
yesh, i know.....

refer to this
*
sorry but i am not one of those LYN geeks who actually know their thread number. at most i'll know which sub forum n title. if they r gonna delete it off, why not just copy paste the thread title before deleting it?
is copy paste such a difficult thing now?

so coz u dun hv the time to actually really go through the thingy, then u just pass off the judgment? so imagine in a criminal court, 'i've got 20 other cases lined up for me to preside over. u r guilty coz u got the knife in ur hand at the murder scene. thus i sentence u to hang to death'.

there's no fair trial for tht.
but in my case, i didnt even get the part of what i am guilty of. mayb just the i m holding knife part but is there a law against holding knifes? no. is there a law against holding knifes to commit murder? yes. tht i am very well aware off.

so before u jump into conclusion again, pls read again.

n for the record, wat may be painfully obvious for u may not be the same for some other ppl.
malaysianPotato
post Mar 28 2008, 03:11 PM

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QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 02:50 PM)
sorry but i am not one of those LYN geeks who actually know their thread number. at most i'll know which sub forum n title. if they r gonna delete it off, why not just copy paste the thread title before deleting it?
is copy paste such a difficult thing now?

so coz u dun hv the time to  actually really go through the thingy, then u just pass off the judgment? so imagine in a criminal court, 'i've got 20 other cases lined up for me to preside over. u r guilty coz u got the knife in ur hand at the murder scene. thus i sentence u to hang to death'.

there's no fair trial for tht.
but in my case, i didnt even get the part of what i am guilty of. mayb just the i m holding knife part but is there a law against holding knifes? no. is there a law against holding knifes to commit murder? yes. tht i am very well aware off.

so before u jump into conclusion again, pls read again.

n for the record, wat may be painfully obvious for u may not be the same for some other ppl.
*
See now you're taking things out of context.

This isn't a court case, those guys are actually paid to do their job. You don't go to jail or get hanged. They don't have to do things quickly, they can take their time.

Also, your example of you getting "hung" for holding a knife isn't exactly true to the current situation.

When someone kills someone else, there has to be a police investigation into the crime to determine if the guy holding the knife is actually the killer. In your case, we don't need to investigate it because we know you posted that thread. Also, when the accused goes to trial he get's to defend himself and usually try to prove he didn't do it, you can't prove you didn't do it because everyone knows you did.

A more accurate example of your case would be that the judge says "you're hereby sentenced to death" but he doesn't say "for murder blablabla". But obviously in murder cases, even if he doesn't tell you why you're being executed it's so freakin obvious why you're getting executed you'd know regardless.

Now, what may be obvious for others should be obvious to you if you read the rules and regulations and the terms of agreements you agreed to. Pretty sure it says not to post vulgarities and such. If you had read that, you'd know that there would be a fair chance you'd be punished. So, like I said, if you're too lazy to read the rules, we can be lazy to tell them to you and I think that's pretty fair. It's not like we won't tell you what you did wrong if you ask, we just sometimes neglect to include a pm when we take actions. If you still don't know why you got warned, ask nicely, being all whiney and sarcastic doesn't help you and just pisses us off.

The purpose of this thread was to find out why you got warned and you've been told why. We're done here.

This post has been edited by malaysianPotato: Mar 28 2008, 03:13 PM
goldfries
post Mar 28 2008, 06:42 PM

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siowgirl,

look at page 7 of this thread

QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 12:05 PM)
i got warned by goldfries over a thread which now has been deleted n i dunno which thread. how to check , anyone knows? sad.gif
*
QUOTE(dokidoki @ Mar 28 2008, 12:08 PM)
u have no way to check unless u ask mod to help u...but i doubt they will look into your case...they got lot of thing to do.
*
QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 12:09 PM)
then i'm all for goldfries to stepdown.
*
my response in that thread IS exactly towards people like you.

look at your reply. first you ask to check. after a reply and straight you're "all for goldfries to stepdown".

and who do you think you are, a VIP? need immediate answer? mind you I was on holiday and in an unconvenient time to look into replying your PM. I wanted to reply you at a more convenient time (which is now) but unfortunately you're just damn impatient.

and you had resorted to the following reply.....

QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 01:04 PM)
goldfries. i tink u did not real carefully wat i said. wat i wanted to know was WHY I GOT WARNED. if you are going to warn me, give me proper reason. if i have stepped on the line, fine. i would accept it. but if you are warning me and giving me a link to a thread which has been closed or in invi mode, wtf? how am i supposed to know?

wouldnt it be better if you either gv a link to a thread thats the cause of me being warned or if you want to close it, then give me a screenshot? i am not like those ppl who is pressuring you to step down. in fact, i dont gv a damn

wat pisses me off is how idiotic it was of you to actually warn me with a link to a thread that's been deleted. thank you very much because i've been warned n i dun no for wat f-ing reason i am warned. this is the reason why i agree that u should step down or watever.

i've even pm-ed you and did i get any reply? noooooooooooooo goldfries is too busy carrying out some justice work to reply to some people who has stepped over the boundry of which they dont know of.
*
no, you didn't read carefully. you were asking about WHY you got warned, however my response was not in reply to you yet because you didn't exactly ASK the reasons on that thread. you only asked me via PM.

my response quoted your post, regarding your "nature" of thought where one is to stepdown all because you haven't got your answer yet or being warned or whatsoever.

and mind you i GAVE you a link to that thread that caused you to being warned. it's in your WARN list. I did not delete it, i left it there for you to do. someone else deleted it, what do you want me to do? blame me for it? it's too bad you didn't check it on time, you could always still PM me for the reason and I surely will get back to you.

however your manner of reply is absolutely appalling.

QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 01:04 PM)
wouldnt it be better if you either gv a link to a thread thats the cause of me being warned or if you want to close it, then give me a screenshot? i am not like those ppl who is pressuring you to step down. in fact, i dont gv a damn


yeah right, you don't give a damn but you already replied you're ALL for me to stepdown. how is that "don't give a damn"?

QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 01:04 PM)
wat pisses me off is how idiotic it was of you to actually warn me with a link to a thread that's been deleted. thank you very much because i've been warned n i dun no for wat f-ing reason i am warned. this is the reason why i agree that u should step down or watever.


look girl, do you think i would left you a link and delete it? that wouldn't make sense. someone else deleted / invisibled it. so if the link is not there, you could've looked for me and I'll be able to explain to you. unfortunately you did not until today (which I was busy)

the bolded part just shows again how shallow people can be, which is exactly why i posted in response to the other thread, quoting you.

QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 01:04 PM)
i've even pm-ed you and did i get any reply? noooooooooooooo goldfries is too busy carrying out some justice work to reply to some people who has stepped over the boundry of which they dont know of.


and what are you expecting? immediate reply?

are you some VIP or Tan Sri of LYN? even the Admins don't get my reply on the spot, but the Admins are realistic people. they know that people like us have a life to live outside the Internet and will take a little while to respond to some matters.

just because I have time to reply a thread that doesn't mean I have the time to look into your matter.

believe it or not, I had kept you in mind for the past 6+ hours to remember to respond to your matter. this is my duty as a staff because you had asked me politely in your PM.

QUOTE
hi,

i received a warn for http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/656602 of which i dont know wats it for and the thread's been deleted.

may i know whats the reason for the warn?
thanks.


however I'm pretty surprised on these threads, you're behaving as if you paid for 5-star services but not getting any.

QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 02:50 PM)
sorry but i am not one of those LYN geeks who actually know their thread number. at most i'll know which sub forum n title. if they r gonna delete it off, why not just copy paste the thread title before deleting it?
is copy paste such a difficult thing now?
you are jumping to conclusions / assumptions of what happened.

did it not incur to you that the link was given to you and the thread when the thread was stil visible?

did it not incur to you that the thread could possibly be invi / deleted later on?

i guess you didn't.

copy & paste? copy & paste the link to you already. you just didn't look through it.

if you missed it, you could leave a PM or something and wait for a response.

QUOTE(siowgirl @ Mar 28 2008, 01:42 PM)
the thread has been deleted and i do not know wat thread it is. he has not replied my pm and has so nicely lumped me together with the rest of the 'i-hate-goldfries' group when all i want is just to know wat was the reason (wats the thread abt will do just fine, thank u).


btw i DID NOT lump my reply into that thread.

i have not replied you in the first place. I quoted one of your post in that thread to prove some other point.

i got your PM. and I was about to reply you but hey, I come back to see all this.

This post has been edited by goldfries: Mar 28 2008, 07:00 PM

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