technically, its suzaku fault, if he didn't kill his father, toudou would have won over britiannia. But then zero wont come out...

6) Do use the spoiler tags where appropriate

thankfully since i saw it comin from like, miles away i steer away from the thread until i watch the ep.

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Added on April 23, 2008, 9:24 amactually on ep3, im changing my opinions for suzaku (assumingly your referring to him)

f***en 1 man KOR ftw lolz

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Added on April 23, 2008, 9:25 amshana.... maybe the geass symbol, shana's wings

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Added on April 23, 2008, 9:31 amagree with you on that too.

however the way suzaku is doing, in terms of real life's perspective is concerned, is more realistic than lulu. If you havent noticed, the way lulu is going, its even arguebly worse than the brittania. Suzaku merely chosen the path that doesnt involve a huge ammount of collateral damage. And lets be honest here, lulu's main agenda is his hatred for the emperor/brittania, and to be his sis's savior. not really the "great savior" thats going to liberate japan for the sake of the 11's.

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Apr 23 2008, 09:31 AM

More than one way to skin a cat. Likewise, more than one way to infect change, either internally or externally. Both have merits. Both have pitfalls.

Do you kill a few to save many or do you kill many but also save many by killing many?

Utilitarianism had one up on this.

true that, though its "nothing wrong" from suzaku's side aside siding with a cruel emperor. Where as opposed to lulu he is sacrifising innocents for his own benefits. (again, his main agenda is not really for the people, more for himself or rather nunally)

granted, the victor or conqueror is often viewed as the bad guy, in this case, brittania. throughout the course of geass anime, minus the few corrupted officers and the oppressive brittania citizens, brittania arent exactly the bad people, just a matter of conquering and being conquered. The same can be said to the over superpowers such as china.

remember euphemia? if she never met that geass misfortune, suzaku's unrealistic ideals would've been more than realized.

btw, the emperor is well aware of suzaku's intentions, and despite this, he still brought suzaku into the knights of round, AND show him the weapon that is even kept secret to even the highest officers amongst brittania and even the knights of round themselves. Perhaps he is looking forward to that change? who knows. realistically, when it comes to people, if they never stop hating brittania (in this case 11's), the emperor's conquest would face resistance. where else if he manage to get the people to side with him, thats a whole nother story

No person does something just for one reason. They may have a main reason at 1s, which later is justified by various other reasons. Thinking Lelouch did everything for sister is not true, because that is merely his justification. Lelouch is doing everything more out vengeance against his father. For killing his mom. For hurting Nunally.

In truth, Lelouch hates his father's guts. That much we know. Then he justifies his actions being the smart guy that he is, that he will do everyone a favour if he defeated Britannia and his father. Nunally will be in a better world. The 11s will be happier. His father's oppresive kingdom will be in shambles. All these come as a profit loss calculation to him. If he truly cared for his sister, he rather not do anything in Area 11 and just be a normal high school kid. Nobody will bother them and they will live out their lives in peace.

As far as Suzaku is concerned, he is probably disappointed that Lulu is his friend, but he stands by his word "like a true knight/samurai" that despite Zero being his friend, he is willing to end the rebellion and do things "his way". To change things internally. So I don't see him backstabbing anybody. If anyone, Lulu is the one betraying Suzaku's trust since he hid his identity all along.

In true Taniguchi Goro fashion, no one side is truly right or truly wrong. Suzaku and Lelouch just gay for each other but express it by punching each other. Its the new kind of yaoi.


Don't fully agree. Suzaku strikes me as someone who is idealistic and naive about what is really happening. Right now his main goal, is to change Britannia from the inside. And he thinks he's so noble doing this with the least amount of blood shed possible. His nature now is infact very hypocritical. Doesn't he know that Britannia is actually invading foreign soil and making slaves out of people? Does he know what Britannia does to enemies who surrender? He go and tell the Italians to surrender and their lives will be spared. Does Suzaku know that a fate worse than death awaits these people? He goes up there claiming he is so kind to let them live but is in fact so ignorant on what Britannia does. Is he aware on how 11s are treated after the Black Rebellion?

Although not shown yet, I think Suzaku is the person with a colder heart. He is a person who will sacrifice his friends for a "greater good". Maybe as an example if Zero was in a building full of kids, Suzaku will end up being like a typical Britannian and shoot the whole building and kill Zero, thinking that he is saving more lives in the long run. His dark demeanor in season 2 gives me this vibe. But compare it to Lelouch who still cares for his sister, his comrades and his school mates, and doing all he can to protect them as well as to reach his goals, I believe Lelouch to be the more noble of the two.

Conclusion: Suzaku thinks he's being mr nice guy but he's not. Lelouch thinks he's being mr. bad guy, but he's not. Its very interesting where this will go.



The only way to change an empire internally is a military coup, or be king yourself. I don't see how Suzaku is going to ever achieve this.

basically it just clash of ideology and power...

To add to my idea about Suzaku, he also killed his own dad thinking he is doing everyone a favour!!! Suzaku is a ******* la. He will turn on his own friends and think he is so righteous. Bloody hypocrite.

Better hope he die in this season..

From what I see, Lulu is more humane that Suzaku in this. For one, even if his method includes bloodshed, usually the one that dies are teh one that he wanted to die (he didn't kill Viletta when he had the chance for example). Suzaku meanwhile will kill anyone that oppose britannia. And honestly, in term of strategy wise, Lulu is better. his only downfall came when he prioritise Nunally over the Black Knights. Ironic, as it was because of Nunally that he started all of this and because of Nunally that he lost.

Like wolfx said, he justified the using of 11 as his soldiers as he feel that if he won, they will be free. Remember that because of this Kallen forgive Lulu for ditching them at the end of season one and acknowledge him as the real Zero. And she's not really a forgiving person after what happened to her mom and brother.

And I lol'ed when you say that Britannians are not exactly bad people. For one, the Japanese were stripped of all their rights and relegated to slums. except for euphie, I never saw any Britannians that cared about the well being for 11s. They are aristocrats that view the 11s as creatures lesser than animals. Reminds me of the USians and the Red Indians when they wanted to get rid of them. If it was not for the Navajo's language was unknown to the Japs during the war, the Injuns would have been fully wiped out by now.

On Suzaku, well for one I cannot even comprehend what is he doing now. Yes, he is saying that he will change teh Britannian from the inside, but looking at it is. I want to ask. HOW? Yes, he might be now in the knights of 12. but from what I see, he's doing more damage than Zero is doing. At least Zero is giving hope to the people.

If given a choice to face suzaku or to the britainnia army, prefer dying than torture by britainnia army..

Highly unlikely. We'd prolly see a "EVERYTHING IN NAISH!" ending, a Rahxephon-type ending or some weird shitty ending ala Saikano whereby either one will the the one last person after the rest have laid waste to the world.

Either way you look at it, in reality, being a hero gets others around you killed. Not so in anime or movies.

And i do agree that Suzaku's more of a hypocrite. However, Lulu IS using the ends to justify his means. Whereas Suzaku is vice-versa with a dash(a dash doesn't suffice, more like a TON) of hypocriticism thrown in for good measure

s2 suzaku is exactly what you've said, but i personally believe deep down theres the old s1 suzaku, the one before he snap after euphie is dead. the s2 suzaku we know is basically the aftermath of euphie, and lulu being zero.

and as ive mentioned, although it isnt specifically shown as to how the 11's are treated post japan war (not the rebellion), its still moderately safe to say that only the few (well, i know theres a lot of bad brittanians out there, dont get me wrong) bad apples of brittania is being oppresive against the 11's. and lets not forget theres euphie on s1, that fights for the 11's, and tries to create a place where both can be "equal" (we know that aint gonna happen considering its brittania, but what euphie did comes pretty damn close)

again, if its the s1 suzaku, im pretty damn sure he will go out of his way to sacrifice himself for innocent bystanders and all, a direct contrast of what you've said. we've seen it happening over and over where in a direct contrast again, zero is mercilessly hurting innocent people.

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Added on April 23, 2008, 1:48 pmyou do realize that theres also a fair ammount of 11's that arent in the slums and all right? like the academy they are attending also have a few 11's IINM. read:
euphie alone is a good role model example.

for suzaku, i do have the same question as you do: "how?"
for now all we see is him being an extreme hypocrite, but knowing the s1 suzaku, he *SHOULD* have something under his sleeves, or some surprising plot. AFTERALL, he is one of the knights of round, and that alone is more power than any governor/commander around. (afaik its even higher than the royalties right? based from the convo in the ship)

This post has been edited by Quazacolt: Apr 23 2008, 01:48 PM

looking at the EU knightmare, it start to look like destroid tomahawk..

I don't know why anybody should feel disgusted when Suzaku turned Zero in. In Suzaku's eyes, Zero is the kind of person who would geass your girlfriend into killing thousands of innocent civilians.
Suzaku has only killed military personnel or terrorists. As Zero said, you are only allowed to kill if you're prepared to be killed yourself.
He is less hypocritical in season 2, accepting that bloodshed is inevitable. But what can he do now? Join Zero? Join the guy who first sent your girlfriend into a killing frenzy on your own people, and then killed her? He has to continue down the path he has chosen, otherwise he would the biggest hypocrite in the universe.

But I guess it's easier to just hate Suzaku huh?

True but remember Euphie herself does not approve of the Brittanian idealogy. Brittania is using some social darwinism as its idealogy so that "only the strong shall survive" and the rest of the lesser caste of people, slaves, conquered peoples will always be 2nd class citizens to them. Euphie is the minority within Britannia.

He might still protect innocent bystanders, because he thinks he is righteous for doing so. But if these bystanders are what stands between his way to Zero's he will most definately eliminate them. Btw when did Zero mercilessly hurt innocent people? Even when he involved innocent people when he took over that tall building in s1, he did it in a way to ensure their safety during the hostage situation. Although he won't go out of his way to protect people he doesn't know if it doesn't benefit him, he ensures everyone's welfare that is affected by his direct actions.

Those are honorary Britannians, the title given to Suzaku in s1 which are slightly higher status in society compared to the common 11. I think post Black Rebellion, there are no such people anymore. Not sure about this.

He is under direct command of the Emperor...so yeah that basically places him quite high up in the echelon militarily, but i doubt he has much power politically. Real world example would be the Defence Minister for United States who gets his orders directly from the president but has no power politically.

presnap (aka s1) suzaku would definitely protect innocent bystanders even if they are in his way of zero. remember the few occurance suzaku had zero and in the end failed because of zero using other people and even innocent bystanders as shield/decoy etc

most notably against brittanians (well one can argue that because majority of them are oppressive and cruel to the 11's, but unarmed civillians are still unarmed civillians)

well due to the nature of brittania darwinism concept and there are multiple instances where cornelia/her knights especially gilford have stepped in and managed political tasks, and the fact that royalty is worth more than american's example of secretary of D. (like how most if not all of the prince/princesses have direct knights and can command army/govern places) granted, suzaku is not royalty, just a highest ranked knight, but considering the darwinism concept, which puts him "stronger than the rest", he should be able to have command over local governors for example.

Euphie was different from Suzaku that she's quite the same as Zero, but not as extreme. She wants to change Britannia, and she was doing it openly opposing her father. It was a mistake on Lelouch part to geass her mind you, and in the end he had to kill her to
- atone for his mistake of Gayassing her
- prevent more killing of Britannia
Granted that it did gave him the push that he wanted, but he did say that he agreed with Euphies way of thinking (and NOT suzaku) and the Geass was a mistake on his part

O'rly? Not many of them existed. Kallen aka Karen was a half Britannian, so she does not count as her facade is having her pose as a Britannian of noble descendant

euphie was different than suzaku in the sense that she has the capabilities to do what she was doing while suzaku was nothing but an honorary britt soldier (later on euphie's knight)

that said, what euphie was doing is pretty much what suzaku wants to do (but couldnt, which is also a reason why you are claiming what you've posted) and instead of being the same as zero, shes doing it different. zero does it out hating his father and is merely using 11's as an excuse of being righteous, euphie on the other hand really wanted to help the 11's (thus the method and result is different).

although this:
- prevent more killing of Britannia

more of preventing more killing of 11's


as wolfx mentioned, they are called honorary britts

Actually even if Euphie wasn't killed i don't think the plan would've worked so easily. Euphie would be branded a traitor and assasinated by other people....then events would've played out abit differently. Cornelia will definately join Euphie's side. So there might be a stronger rebellion or something.



Yes well... he wasn't that cold in s1... because he still had half a conscience. Now... not so sure anymore. I was more interested in why u said Zero harmed innocent ppl. He did use them as shield but he didn't harm them.

true that, however seeing how the emperor turned suzaku to a KOR despite knowing his intentions, there could be some interesting twist on how it turn out. afterall, euphie is a pretty strong lady herself (not so the millitary side, i meant politically) while cornelia is pretty much a millitary genius. alone they arent so perfect but both together can be a strong force and thats all the ever emperor cared.

in regards to zero, while he never purposely go innocent people slaughtering (afaik), using them as shields or having them being "expendable" is just as bad in my book.