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 Is DotA being marginalised?, Yes or No?

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TSTeckPeow
post Nov 25 2007, 04:47 AM, updated 19y ago

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Have u guys noticed, most of the major tournaments nowadays like World GameMaster Tournament (WGT), World Cyber Games 2007 (WCG) turn down DotA even though DotA has larger communities than most of the games in their game list. As a result, most of the pro DotA players do not have the chance to participate in these big events It also affected many DotA fans because they missed the opportunity to watch their favourite game being played in these events.

Just a quick question for you guys, Is DotA being marginalised? Yes or No?
ukiya
post Nov 25 2007, 04:51 AM

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No... First!!! In Ngr 9 ... everywhere was dota freak and supporters... all cc with at least dota !!!
TSTeckPeow
post Nov 25 2007, 04:55 AM

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QUOTE(ukiya @ Nov 25 2007, 04:51 AM)
No... First!!! In Ngr 9 ... everywhere was dota freak and supporters... all cc with at least dota !!!
*
No no... I mean those major tournaments like WCG which is considered as world class... not the minor tournaments in cybercafe...
ukiya
post Nov 25 2007, 05:03 AM

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hahah... den i m not sure d la ... but somhow ... even in small town ... dota can hear from anywhere !!!
raining again
post Nov 25 2007, 05:08 AM

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yah .even kampung area , just quick it. it's great game but it's very very addictive. my friend had play it for 8 year non stop and he's telling me he deleted the game =.='
oRoXoRo
post Nov 25 2007, 05:10 AM

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lol 8 years non stop?
amir89
post Nov 25 2007, 07:46 AM

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8 years..?

=.=" shakehead.gif

me also 2 years.. brows.gif
and now stopped.. nod.gif

cos..

kena 'holiday' cry.gif
Christopher_LKL
post Nov 25 2007, 08:20 AM

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dota is NEVER a game by itself, it just a mod and its NOT supported by ANY game developers, so its definitely unable to become a MAJOR game in thise bigger games list, and how u define bota has more players? WCG aint created just for players in malaysia and singapore. and i can tell u that the "other games" u talking about have much much much much larger communities in the WORLD.
SUSFlizzardo
post Nov 25 2007, 01:26 PM

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QUOTE(Christopher_LKL @ Nov 25 2007, 08:20 AM)
dota is NEVER a game by itself, it just a mod and its NOT supported by ANY game developers, so its definitely unable to become a MAJOR game in thise bigger games list, and how u define bota has more players? WCG aint created just for players in malaysia and singapore. and i can tell u that the "other games" u talking about have much much much much larger communities in the WORLD.
*
do u know at non peak time in ggc alone there are normally around 30k-50k people are playing at the same time in ggc alone around the whole world

not included zion.hamachi,battlenet,blu3server,indonesian private servers,thailand private servers,russian private servers,lan games,

well alot dota haters think dota is only famous in malaysia and singapore but they should do more research because dota is also famous at alot other places such as phillipine,russia,germany,vietnam,china,australia,new zealand

recently the gaming community gotfrag also have added their own section for dota which means dota is getting more acceptable in pro gaming scene
fullmetalneko
post Nov 25 2007, 02:34 PM

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QUOTE(Christopher_LKL @ Nov 25 2007, 08:20 AM)
dota is NEVER a game by itself, it just a mod and its NOT supported by ANY game developers, so its definitely unable to become a MAJOR game in thise bigger games list, and how u define bota has more players? WCG aint created just for players in malaysia and singapore. and i can tell u that the "other games" u talking about have much much much much larger communities in the WORLD.
*
hmm? counterstrike is a mod as well and it has been featured in most major tournaments worldwide whistling.gif
maybe the tournament organizers have their own criterion a game must meet before it can be implemented in major tournaments hmm.gif
SoLiD
post Nov 25 2007, 02:40 PM

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dota never made it in those big competition because blizzard does not show support and approval of the game. Since it over-shadowed the original Warcraft 3 itself. You go outside see all those little kids playing dota doesn't even know what the hell is Warcraft 3

Unlike Blizzard, Valve actually supported and help market the HL mod as part of their product, so CS made it in to those competition because they got support from the original game creator Valve.

This post has been edited by SoLiD: Nov 25 2007, 02:43 PM
Hell Fire
post Nov 25 2007, 03:17 PM

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sleep.gif another never ending topic
http://www.gotfrag.com/ to see which game has the biggest community.
strace
post Nov 25 2007, 03:55 PM

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QUOTE(Flizzardo @ Nov 25 2007, 01:26 PM)
do u know at non peak time in ggc alone there are normally around 30k-50k people are playing at the same time in ggc alone around the whole world

not included zion.hamachi,battlenet,blu3server,indonesian private servers,thailand private servers,russian private servers,lan games,

well alot dota haters think dota is only famous in malaysia and singapore but they should do more research because dota is also famous at alot other places such as phillipine,russia,germany,vietnam,china,australia,new zealand

recently the gaming community gotfrag also have added their own section for dota which means dota is getting more acceptable in pro gaming scene
*
To think that the 30-50k people in ggc are playing dota, that is so wrong. The fact is majority people in ggc are from china, they play Nobunaga's ambition (i'm playing this) and Sanguomosou more than dota. The rest of the servers are appeal to people where piracy is in easy reach. dota enjoy popularity in other countries doesn't mean it is the mainstream game unlike the situation in msia, sg and phils. In their perception, dota is just a past time game. The thing is international competition organizer do hear cries for dota but the numbers is very regional. If dotaAS is approved, dota chaos, nobunaga, sanguo and other regional popularity games has to be in the pro gaming scene too.
befitozi
post Nov 25 2007, 04:33 PM

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QUOTE(Flizzardo @ Nov 25 2007, 01:26 PM)
do u know at non peak time in ggc alone there are normally around 30k-50k people are playing at the same time in ggc alone around the whole world

not included zion.hamachi,battlenet,blu3server,indonesian private servers,thailand private servers,russian private servers,lan games,

well alot dota haters think dota is only famous in malaysia and singapore but they should do more research because dota is also famous at alot other places such as phillipine,russia,germany,vietnam,china,australia,new zealand

recently the gaming community gotfrag also have added their own section for dota which means dota is getting more acceptable in pro gaming scene
*
try to reach 1 billion playing minutes a month that cs1.6 gets....
ellimist
post Nov 25 2007, 07:06 PM

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In no particular order :-

1.The lack of support by a major game developers.

2.Length. Dota games these days last somewhere within the hour,which is still considered pretty long unlike other games which are generally divided into rounds etc. Plus early game is usually dull and revolves around farming (though there are major teams who gank real early) which further derails spectator value.

3.It's still an evolving game. Other games,despite patches,dont evolve so much,u generally get fixes and minor add ons if any. So argue as much as you want,dota is not particularly the world's most balanced game =p Despite the 89 heroes, (minus the new ones which are not used in league modes) you still see teams generally opting for certain "powerhouse" heroes to be amongst their lineup.

4.Dota is a map (which isn't necessarily bad,but ppl would argue that it lacks variety in terms of map adaption)


Casual play and competitive play are 2 very different things.Just because we enjoy the game,it doesn't mean it'll be a good competitive one.But I do think that dota has the potential to make it,probably in due time.And that sums up my random thoughts laugh.gif
TSTeckPeow
post Nov 25 2007, 07:35 PM

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[quote=ellimist,Nov 25 2007, 07:06 PM]In no particular order :-

1.The lack of support by a major game developers.

Blizzard still actively maintains the map editior

2.Length. Dota games these days last somewhere within the hour,which is still considered pretty long unlike other games which are generally divided into rounds etc. Plus early game is usually dull and revolves around farming (though there are major teams who gank real early) which further derails spectator value.

Some other games also take forever to finish

3.It's still an evolving game. Other games,despite patches,dont evolve so much,u generally get fixes and minor add ons if any. So argue as much as you want,dota is not particularly the world's most balanced game =p Despite the 89 heroes, (minus the new ones which are not used in league modes) you still see teams generally opting for certain "powerhouse" heroes to be amongst their lineup.

No, DotA is balanced. Learn to play

4.Dota is a map (which isn't necessarily bad,but ppl would argue that it lacks variety in terms of map adaption)
Casual play and competitive play are 2 very different things.Just because we enjoy the game,it doesn't mean it'll be a good competitive one.But I do think that dota has the potential to make it,probably in due time.And that sums up my random thoughts laugh.gif

CS is also a map yet its in WCG for so many years.






This post has been edited by TeckPeow: Nov 25 2007, 07:37 PM
ellimist
post Nov 25 2007, 07:42 PM

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QUOTE(TeckPeow @ Nov 25 2007, 07:35 PM)
Blizzard still actively maintains the map editior

Some other games also take forever to finish

No, DotA is balanced. Learn to play

CS is also a map yet its in WCG for so many years.
*
1.You might as well comment on how Blizzard has included dota in the Blizzcon.But I was referrin to support as in how Valve "supports" CS

2.Main games which are featured in worldwide tourneys dont. There's a reason why changes such as no regen on towers, ward costs, aegis changes etc were made. But admitedly,the whole long farming in lane is evolving to quick ganks. Virtus.Pro is the best example of this.

3.Lol you don't seem particularly opened to comments do you.It's balanced,but not superbly balanced as some games are *cough starcraft*.If it were,you wouldn't have needed major nerfs on Bristleback and Akasha (and even Obsidian's ulti) to name a few.Top teams in the Dota scene comment on this issue now and then which is simply the fact that it is decently balanced,but still evolving. Besides,I was also pointing the fact that in competitive play,despite having 80+ heroes,around 20 or so heroes are generally chosen (and I quote MYM|Merlini for this point,since I have no credibility myself)

4.CS has multiple maps mind you.Dota has one

Don't get me wrong,I'm not shooting Dota down.I'm just pointing out the reasons why u still don't see it in major tourneys

This post has been edited by ellimist: Nov 25 2007, 08:05 PM
befitozi
post Nov 25 2007, 08:18 PM

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QUOTE(TeckPeow @ Nov 25 2007, 07:35 PM)

Blizzard still actively maintains the map editior

*
Are you stupid or what sweat.gif
TSTeckPeow
post Nov 25 2007, 08:45 PM

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QUOTE(befitozi @ Nov 25 2007, 08:18 PM)
Are you stupid or what sweat.gif
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Changes for world editor made by Blizzard a few patches ago....get the fact before calling someone stupid...



» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
befitozi
post Nov 25 2007, 09:07 PM

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QUOTE(TeckPeow @ Nov 25 2007, 08:45 PM)
Changes for world editor made by Blizzard a few patches ago....get the fact before calling someone stupid...
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
Yes and what does that gotta do with dota ??

They update the world editor not dota it self
ellimist
post Nov 25 2007, 09:15 PM

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TeckPeow,I assume you're trying to say that Blizzard is supporting Dota because they maintain the map editor?

Well,you have to get your facts right as well,they don't maintain the map editor because of Dota.

And that was not the kinda support we were discussing in the first place.
H@H@
post Nov 25 2007, 10:36 PM

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Ok, I won't comment on why DotA is being marginalized in tournaments and whatnot (Mostly because I don't care).

But, I had to come in for this:
QUOTE(TeckPeow @ Nov 25 2007, 07:35 PM)
CS is also a map yet its in WCG for so many years.
*
This is the single most dumbest thing I've heard come out of your mouth (yet). Go read up the definition of "map".
yhtan
post Nov 26 2007, 12:18 AM

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CS is not a map, is a game
Warcraft main game is those strategy game
RtP|DEV
post Nov 26 2007, 12:43 AM

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A malaysian saying that DotA is as mainstream and popular in other part of the world as it is in Malaysia is like a Korean saying that sc is the most popular esports in the world. sweat.gif

I dont mind if DotA made into WCG. But if it is at the expense of less popular game in Malaysia like Starcraft, in the name of Khala, ill bring parang with me to WCG next year. Ill cut those dotards head and present it to the conclave.
ZipD
post Nov 26 2007, 09:05 AM

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From xfire.com:

QUOTE
TODAY'S TOP GAMES
GAME  MINUTES PLAYED

World of Warcraft
19,319,976

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare Multiplayer
11,548,987

Call of Duty 2 Multiplayer
6,181,140

Counter-Strike: Source
5,310,237

Battlefield 2
2,641,315

Guild Wars
2,146,357

Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory
1,872,453

Warcraft III - The Frozen Throne
1,599,486

Counter-Strike 1.6
1,238,932

WarRock
1,168,941
Somehow I get the feeling ts will start to hallucinate about number of dota players since wc3:ft is listed. wink.gif
ellimist
post Nov 26 2007, 09:12 AM

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QUOTE(RtP|DEV @ Nov 26 2007, 12:43 AM)
A malaysian saying that DotA is as mainstream and popular in other part of the world as it is in Malaysia is like a Korean saying that sc is the most popular esports in the world. sweat.gif

I dont mind if DotA made into WCG. But if it is at the expense of less popular game in Malaysia like Starcraft, in the name of Khala, ill bring parang with me to WCG next year. Ill cut those dotards head and present it to the conclave.
*
Haha don't wry,SC has been there since the beginning of WCG right up to the present one. But yea,I'll join in on ur parang fest should somethin like that happen laugh.gif
H@H@
post Nov 26 2007, 11:43 AM

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QUOTE(yhtan @ Nov 26 2007, 12:18 AM)
CS is not a map, is a game
Warcraft main game is those strategy game
*
Well to be fair, it started out as a mod and when WCG adopted it, it was still just a mod.

So, assuming TeokPeow meant "mod" instead of "map", I will say that CS is the exception to the rule since how many mods out there are being used in international tourneys?
ellimist
post Nov 26 2007, 12:22 PM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Nov 26 2007, 11:43 AM)
Well to be fair, it started out as a mod and when WCG adopted it, it was still just a mod.

So, assuming TeokPeow meant "mod" instead of "map", I will say that CS is the exception to the rule since how many mods out there are being used in international tourneys?
*
Correct me if I'm wrong,but I believe Valve announced that they were cooperating with the CS developers in year 2000,and the first WCG was in 2001.
sean392
post Nov 26 2007, 12:29 PM

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QUOTE(ellimist @ Nov 26 2007, 09:12 AM)
Haha don't wry,SC has been there since the beginning of WCG right up to the present one. But yea,I'll join in on ur parang fest should somethin like that happen laugh.gif
*
ZOMG ZERG RUSH.
Christopher_LKL
post Nov 26 2007, 12:31 PM

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QUOTE(Flizzardo @ Nov 25 2007, 01:26 PM)
do u know at non peak time in ggc alone there are normally around 30k-50k people are playing at the same time in ggc alone around the whole world

not included zion.hamachi,battlenet,blu3server,indonesian private servers,thailand private servers,russian private servers,lan games,

well alot dota haters think dota is only famous in malaysia and singapore but they should do more research because dota is also famous at alot other places such as phillipine,russia,germany,vietnam,china,australia,new zealand

recently the gaming community gotfrag also have added their own section for dota which means dota is getting more acceptable in pro gaming scene
*
yea 30-50k wow, now where u get the statistic? and 30k-50k compare to other mainstream games? peanuts.


QUOTE(fullmetalneko @ Nov 25 2007, 02:34 PM)
hmm? counterstrike is a mod as well and it has been featured in most major tournaments worldwide  whistling.gif
maybe the tournament organizers have their own criterion a game must meet before it can be implemented in major tournaments  hmm.gif
*
counterstrike was a mod, but whole team got valve'd and its now a game by itself

oh and ah its my bad sorry, cs is a mod, dota aint, its a custom map.
* oh and dun get me wrong, i seriously played dota - years ago when even the dota itself is not well known yet.

This post has been edited by Christopher_LKL: Nov 26 2007, 12:36 PM
H@H@
post Nov 26 2007, 12:37 PM

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QUOTE(ellimist @ Nov 26 2007, 12:22 PM)
Correct me if I'm wrong,but I believe Valve announced that they were cooperating with the CS developers in year 2000,and the first WCG was in 2001.
*
Well, that doesn't really change the fact that its a mod. Hell, even when it was released as a standalone game, it still was a mod for Half-Life (Its basically a mod sitting on top of a stripped down Half-Life that had no single player content). Anyway, it always had the community backing it up rather developer support that made it become an entry in WCG.

And this further bolsters the point that it is just an exception to the rule that mods don't do well in international tourneys.


Also, I'd like to say that a mod is no less of a game just because its a mod. Whether its getting official support from the devs or not. DotA IS a mod and anyone who just calls it a "map" is either incredibly ignorant or arrogant. Calling it a map is like saying "de_dust is just a map". You're selling it awfully short.
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post Nov 26 2007, 12:51 PM

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QUOTE(sean392 @ Nov 26 2007, 12:29 PM)
ZOMG ZERG RUSH.
*
nono, zealot rush... parang you see?
nickisthemost
post Nov 26 2007, 01:20 PM

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well the things that i know is that not many CC can survive without Dota seriously, im talking about these really famous CC around Klang Valley area, cheers happy.gif

Added on November 26, 2007, 1:23 pm
QUOTE(H@H@ @ Nov 26 2007, 12:37 PM)
Well, that doesn't really change the fact that its a mod. Hell, even when it was released as a standalone game, it still was a mod for Half-Life (Its basically a mod sitting on top of a stripped down Half-Life that had no single player content). Anyway, it always had the community backing it up rather developer support that made it become an entry in WCG.

And this further bolsters the point that it is just an exception to the rule that mods don't do well in international tourneys.
Also, I'd like to say that a mod is no less of a game just because its a mod. Whether its getting official support from the devs or not. DotA IS a mod and anyone who just calls it a "map" is either incredibly ignorant or arrogant. Calling it a map is like saying "de_dust is just a map". You're selling it awfully short.
*
hey that's just your opinion, pls don't force everyone in the community to accept it, you had to respect other's opinion too.

This post has been edited by nickisthemost: Nov 26 2007, 01:23 PM
ellimist
post Nov 26 2007, 02:20 PM

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QUOTE(sean392 @ Nov 26 2007, 12:29 PM)
ZOMG ZERG RUSH.
*
QUOTE(jiaxun @ Nov 26 2007, 12:51 PM)
nono, zealot rush... parang you see?
*
OffTopic : While playin SC with a noob friend,he once shouted "Help,alot of zergs in my base". Another friend of mine sent some reinforcements only to find zealots there laugh.gif


QUOTE(H@H@ @ Nov 26 2007, 12:37 PM)
Well, that doesn't really change the fact that its a mod. Hell, even when it was released as a standalone game, it still was a mod for Half-Life (Its basically a mod sitting on top of a stripped down Half-Life that had no single player content). Anyway, it always had the community backing it up rather developer support that made it become an entry in WCG.

And this further bolsters the point that it is just an exception to the rule that mods don't do well in international tourneys.
Also, I'd like to say that a mod is no less of a game just because its a mod. Whether its getting official support from the devs or not. DotA IS a mod and anyone who just calls it a "map" is either incredibly ignorant or arrogant. Calling it a map is like saying "de_dust is just a map". You're selling it awfully short.
*
I'm not saying Dota is a map from an arrogant perspective.I'm just stating the fact that it has only one map and is probably another reason why "dota is marginalized" as per topic.
I play Dota casually myself laugh.gif
MasterAlvin
post Nov 26 2007, 02:33 PM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Nov 25 2007, 10:36 PM)
Ok, I won't comment on why DotA is being marginalized in tournaments and whatnot (Mostly because I don't care).

But, I had to come in for this:

This is the single most dumbest thing I've heard come out of your mouth (yet). Go read up the definition of "map".
*
hahahah i have to agree with H@H@ on this, this is epic... hahaha...

well from what i know, Dota is a mod alright, most WC3 mods comes in the form of "custom map" that allows the creator to impose special rules of the map. well if you consider all the special rules and stuff for it to be a game, it is a game of its own.

well CS has many maps, mister TeckPeow.... it's also a mod, just that it's made "official" by a distributor.
Dota isnt official, coz there isnt a need to. that marks the difference.
maybe you'd even make some arguements on that one, but think about this:
if blizzard decides OFFICIALLY supporting Dota and OFFICIALLY merchandise Dota, would you still support it in the way you are now, if you have to PAY to BUY and play an OFFICIAL Dota and continue your support for it to make it an OFFICIAL game in tourneys?

i'm not shooting dota, i'm just pointing it out.
i hope it makes sense since my english is kinda bad.

just my 2 cents =)

This post has been edited by MasterAlvin: Nov 26 2007, 02:34 PM
H@H@
post Nov 26 2007, 02:42 PM

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QUOTE(MasterAlvin @ Nov 26 2007, 02:33 PM)
hahahah i have to agree with H@H@ on this, this is epic... hahaha...

well from what i know, Dota is a mod alright, most WC3 mods comes in the form of "custom map" that allows the creator to impose special rules of the map. well if you consider all the special rules and stuff for it to be a game, it is a game of its own.

well CS has many maps, mister TeckPeow.... it's also a mod, just that it's made "official" by a distributor.
Dota isnt official, coz there isnt a need to. that marks the difference.
maybe you'd even make some arguements on that one, but think about this:
if blizzard decides OFFICIALLY supporting Dota and OFFICIALLY merchandise Dota, would you still support it in the way you are now, if you have to PAY to BUY and play an OFFICIAL Dota and continue your support for it to make it an OFFICIAL game in tourneys?

i'm not shooting dota, i'm just pointing it out.
i hope it makes sense since my english is kinda bad.

just my 2 cents =)
*
Hmmm, you bring an interesting point to the table:

What if Blizzard scooped up the rights for DotA, developed it internally with its full range of AAA talent; so that it will have custom models, animations and spell effects and finally have the polish and support of a full fledged game, but this will be sold as a whole new game. If you want an example, I can say Garry's Mod and that actually did quite well.

Would the current "die hard" crowd still support it?
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post Nov 26 2007, 03:52 PM

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well i stopped playing Garry's mod after they made it cost-money-to-play.

how about you?
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post Nov 26 2007, 04:03 PM

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QUOTE(MasterAlvin @ Nov 26 2007, 03:52 PM)
well i stopped playing Garry's mod after they made it cost-money-to-play.

how about you?
*
I thought you could still use GM 9? Only 10+ was p2p?

Anyway, from user reviews, it seems its definitely worth the money if you're serious into doing some modding work using GM.
oRoXoRo
post Nov 26 2007, 04:03 PM

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Let go of that MOD or map issue. It's all about whether u support tat game or not. More and more high level clan asking for dota to be included in High lvl competitions. And Dota did included in some High lvl tournaments. But not WCG thats all. What we believe is if we being supportive enough then Dota will success so whether its just a map/mod or with/without developers it is not that important. If we r not supportive, not matter what game its, it will be useless.
ataris
post Nov 26 2007, 04:09 PM

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no comment. dota will live as long as there are gamers playing it. bring ur parangs or whateva to wcg next year if dota in featured and sc is not. this is a country with law. lol.
H@H@
post Nov 26 2007, 04:09 PM

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QUOTE(nickisthemost @ Nov 26 2007, 01:20 PM)
hey that's just your opinion, pls don't force everyone in the community to accept it, you had to respect other's opinion too.
*
Wow, you still pissed at me? wink.gif

Its my opinion on someone else's opinion. Just because someone says "A cat is a type of poultry", doesn't mean I can't question it even though its retarded since I have to "respect" their opinion.
oRoXoRo
post Nov 26 2007, 04:10 PM

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why they hate dota that much? grumble.gif
ellimist
post Nov 26 2007, 04:47 PM

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Who in this thread has mentioned a hate for Dota? =.=
jhcj
post Nov 26 2007, 04:49 PM

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Hey ellimist go study la. laugh.gif

In my opinion, the single biggest obstacle for DotA being a full fledged competitive sporting event is the average length of one game.

Logistically, it'll be a nightmare to schedule DotA matches.
oRoXoRo
post Nov 26 2007, 04:51 PM

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QUOTE(ellimist @ Nov 26 2007, 04:47 PM)
Who in this thread has mentioned a hate for Dota? =.=
*
just a question.
ellimist
post Nov 26 2007, 04:56 PM

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QUOTE(jhcj @ Nov 26 2007, 04:49 PM)
Hey ellimist go study la. laugh.gif

In my opinion, the single biggest obstacle for DotA being a full fledged competitive sporting event is the average length of one game.

Logistically, it'll be a nightmare to schedule DotA matches.
*
Cannot focus,as usual.Happens every sem laugh.gif

QUOTE(oRoXoRo @ Nov 26 2007, 04:51 PM)
just a question.
*
Oh ok,lol
RtP|DEV
post Nov 26 2007, 05:15 PM

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QUOTE(jhcj @ Nov 26 2007, 04:49 PM)
Hey ellimist go study la. laugh.gif

In my opinion, the single biggest obstacle for DotA being a full fledged competitive sporting event is the average length of one game.

Logistically, it'll be a nightmare to schedule DotA matches.
*
No, the biggest obstacle for DotA is the game is not a spectators sport.
Watching DotA can be as boring as watching baseball or cricket game.
MasterAlvin
post Nov 26 2007, 05:46 PM

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well watching dota is very different with watching baseball and cricket.

there are a lot of mind games and situational tactics for baseball and cricket which only people who understands the game will understand and actually enjoy it.

i.e. 3S and 2B and 3 bases loaded and 2 runs at stake with a power batter batting, in the 9th bottom inning. there's a lot going on between the pitcher and the catcher.

watching dota in spectator mode is surely boring, since you cant see what the players are doing. but watching the finger work and the mouse work along side a player can be interesting too.

what's different of dota and other games and sports, is that it has no predictable length. since it's very difficult to organise, and the schedule, both jhcj and Rtp|DEV has quite a point there.
Klesk
post Nov 26 2007, 06:27 PM

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what the hell, blizzard goin to support Dota like what Valve did with CS? thats a whole bunch of BS, Icefrog went in and cut & paste the whole painstakingly created original heroes, giving them new names, skill sets, etc, why Blizzard would want to support a Rojak game?

This post has been edited by Klesk: Nov 26 2007, 06:29 PM
ellimist
post Nov 26 2007, 06:30 PM

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QUOTE(RtP|DEV @ Nov 26 2007, 05:15 PM)
No, the biggest obstacle for DotA is the game is not a spectators sport.
Watching DotA can be as boring as watching baseball or cricket game.
*
I agree with this. The lack of spectator value is actually partially due to the length of the game (for an e-sport,it's considered pretty long atm) I also think your comparison is pretty; (though baseball is not boring laugh.gif) ppl without a proper understanding of the technical side of the game or interest in the game itself won't get the game when viewed from spectator mode.

@Master Alvin : Watching it from a spectator mode isn't too boring if you like out for map control,teamwork in ganks and what nots,but yea,it's like watching baseball laugh.gif
TheNameX
post Nov 26 2007, 06:54 PM

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QUOTE(RtP|DEV @ Nov 26 2007, 05:15 PM)
No, the biggest obstacle for DotA is the game is not a spectators sport.
Watching DotA can be as boring as watching baseball or cricket game.
*
I hope you wont bash by those baseball or cricket lovers tongue.gif

I dont think that is an issue... let's look at the other games listed in WCG, Starcraft and Warcraft 3, if you know nutz about the game mechanism itself, you wont feel impress at all. But still SC and Warcraft still in WCG every year. But I gotta admit watching dota is boring as I dont see much surprise can be done in a tournament game, regardless of what hero combo you have, you still need to push and push all the way into your opponent's throne/tree.
H@H@
post Nov 26 2007, 07:09 PM

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QUOTE(Klesk @ Nov 26 2007, 06:27 PM)
what the hell, blizzard goin to support Dota like what Valve did with CS? thats a whole bunch of BS, Icefrog went in and cut & paste the whole painstakingly created original heroes, giving them new names, skill sets, etc, why Blizzard would want to support a Rojak game?
*
Actually, the reason why they recycled all the original game's art assets is to reduce the size of the map. So, instead of having about 10 new heroes, all with brand spanking new models, textures and spell effects, that clocks in at about 10 megs, you have a game with 5 times that number at only 3 megs. This also means they can focus purely on improving the gameplay without having to spend months modelling and animating new heroes.

Its a very smart move really. They save space and reduce development time.
oRoXoRo
post Nov 26 2007, 07:17 PM

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yup watching dota = boring. its true -.-
jiaxun
post Nov 26 2007, 07:33 PM

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watching replay is always boring but if you watch it live, it would be exciting. Maybe because of the environment?
nickisthemost
post Nov 26 2007, 08:36 PM

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QUOTE(H@H@ @ Nov 26 2007, 04:09 PM)
Wow, you still pissed at me? wink.gif

Its my opinion on someone else's opinion. Just because someone says "A cat is a type of poultry", doesn't mean I can't question it even though its retarded since I have to "respect" their opinion.
*
lol there is a different between pissed and dislike more like annoying, look at the bigger picture does it really matter whether it is called mod or map wink.gif ?

at the end of the day issin't it blizzard was the one that earn the most ?, cheers
H@H@
post Nov 26 2007, 08:53 PM

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QUOTE(nickisthemost @ Nov 26 2007, 08:36 PM)
lol there is a different between pissed and dislike more like annoying, look at the bigger picture does it really matter whether it is called mod or map wink.gif ?

at the end of the day issin't it blizzard was the one that earn the most ?, cheers
*
This coming from someone who came into this thread just to point out that I was doing that... And I'm supposed to be the petty one.

Anyway, why shouldn't it be important to say that a mere "custom map" for Warcraft 3 be defined as a mod? This doesn't just apply to DotA, but the many other custom maps out there like NOTD, Tower Defence, etc. If ppl realize that custom maps for Warcraft 3 are more than just slight alterations to the basic gameplay and may in fact introduce many elements that change the whole gaming experience, wouldn't more ppl be more open to this wonderful new world of mods, which will effect change in the player base that will make the Battlenet Custom Game listings to list more than just another "Dota 6.49b ap Leavers can go f*** off" headings.

I bet Blizzard would love that.
skyliner
post Nov 26 2007, 09:00 PM

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hahaha, what a long story when i read from the beginning, IMHO, dota is teamplay which rarely found in other game.dota still rocks, i quit now!
~addicted to it, dem~
jim18992
post Nov 26 2007, 09:13 PM

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I play Dota, it fun, but I still go back playing SC, cause "My Life for Aiur ." when I start playing SC. CS also a great game.

This post has been edited by jim18992: Nov 26 2007, 09:14 PM
TheNameX
post Nov 26 2007, 09:14 PM

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QUOTE(jiaxun @ Nov 26 2007, 07:33 PM)
watching replay is always boring but if you watch it live, it would be exciting. Maybe because of the environment?
*
Not really... check out the Starcraft and Warcraft 3 replays download count in those major website. Fast pace RTS replays is always worth a watch.
MasterAlvin
post Nov 26 2007, 09:43 PM

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QUOTE(TheNameX @ Nov 26 2007, 09:14 PM)
Not really... check out the Starcraft and Warcraft 3 replays download count in those major website. Fast pace RTS replays is always worth a watch.
*
that's the thing... dota doesnt have that many engagements.
troops that actually matters dun die that often, so the shifting in dominance happens quite late in the game and quite slowly.
that's why it kills the spectatorship.

the original WC3 is different. once the first engagement starts, fights are often and shift of dominance happens constantly until the game ends.
now that's why they have lots of downloads.
RtP|DEV
post Nov 26 2007, 10:11 PM

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QUOTE(MasterAlvin @ Nov 26 2007, 05:46 PM)
well watching dota is very different with watching baseball and cricket.

there are a lot of mind games and situational tactics for baseball and cricket which only people who understands the game will understand and actually enjoy it.

i.e. 3S and 2B and 3 bases loaded and 2 runs at stake with a power batter batting, in the 9th bottom inning. there's a lot going on between the pitcher and the catcher.
*
Still, i think its the same. Only hardcore fans will enjoy the game. They don't appeal to the popular mass because the game is slow(from spectators point of view). Its not about the tactical situation or game mechanics, its about the intensity of the games. Seriously every game is fun to play but not all fun to watch. Talking about baseball even most Americans find it boring and too slow.

In Korea most guys from the age 10 to 30 watch Starcraft pro scene. Although many of them didn't play the game they watch and talk about it.
See, when a game is good to watch not only hardcore but casual fans will also watch it.
Even wc3 which is more intense than DotA failed in Korea because to them WC3 is slow and boring.

QUOTE(MasterAlvin @ Nov 26 2007, 05:46 PM)
watching dota in spectator mode is surely boring, since you cant see what the players are doing. but watching the finger work and the mouse work along side a player can be interesting too.
*
Then better watch ppl play o2jam, their finger work is uber gosu. Or maybe they should watch SC fpvod, some ppl might puke though.
Seriously, who on earth want to watch finger work and the mouse work? If the game is boring in spectators mode, it fails as a spectators sport. Good luck watching pro kill creeps for 5 minutes.

QUOTE(MasterAlvin @ Nov 26 2007, 09:43 PM)
the original WC3 is different. once the first engagement starts, fights are often and shift of dominance happens constantly until the game ends.
now that's why they have lots of downloads.
*
I watch some of Warcraft 3 vod/live games with commentators. I dont see much shift of dominance in it.
Watching wc3 games is like watching ZvZ in Starcraft minus the intensity.
(TP scroll kills wc3 as spectators sport)
sean392
post Nov 26 2007, 10:15 PM

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QUOTE(raining again @ Nov 25 2007, 05:08 AM)
yah .even kampung area , just quick it. it's great game but it's very very addictive. my friend had play it for 8 year non stop and he's telling me he deleted the game =.='
*
????
WC3 was only released 2001-2002
at most its 6 years
8 years? Your friend's confused.
QUOTE(jiaxun @ Nov 26 2007, 12:51 PM)
nono, zealot rush... parang you see?
*
Zerglings claws resembles sickles no?

QUOTE(RtP|DEV @ Nov 26 2007, 10:11 PM)
I watch some of Warcraft 3 vod/live games with commentators. I dont see much shift of dominance in it.
Watching wc3 games is like watching ZvZ in Starcraft minus the intensity.
(TP scroll kills wc3 as spectators sport)
*
Well to be fair, pace in WC3 is significantly slower and with the hero system it makes the game more dynamic. Also damage in WC3 is variable and is not fixed like in SC. Keeping your units alive for some factions are very important (Orcs especially) rather than some to delay until stronger units come to play. The shift in game dominance in most replays I see are quite often but sometimes it can be one sided.



On the serious note, I don't think DoTA is significantly marginalized. Its currently not balanced enough to make it competitive.

This post has been edited by sean392: Nov 26 2007, 10:26 PM
RtP|DEV
post Nov 27 2007, 12:00 AM

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QUOTE(sean392 @ Nov 26 2007, 10:15 PM)
Well to be fair, pace in WC3 is significantly slower and with the hero system it makes the game more dynamic. Also damage in WC3 is variable and is not fixed like in SC. Keeping your units alive for some factions are very important (Orcs especially) rather than some to delay until stronger units come to play. The shift in game dominance in most replays I see are quite often but sometimes it can be one sided.
*
Actually it made the game more confusing to the spectators.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Watch this, its the best, the most entertaining, the most intense e-sports match i have watched this year and its from spectators point of view.
TSTeckPeow
post Nov 27 2007, 10:55 PM

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Who deleted my posts???!!!!
befitozi
post Nov 27 2007, 11:37 PM

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QUOTE(TeckPeow @ Nov 27 2007, 10:55 PM)
Who deleted my posts???!!!!
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type it out again , i wanna hear more epic replies
gM | Mutsumi-san
post Nov 28 2007, 12:48 AM

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QUOTE(TeckPeow @ Nov 27 2007, 10:55 PM)
Who deleted my posts???!!!!
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i did
because it was made out of fail
and because i deleted by zero rclxms.gif
MasterAlvin
post Nov 28 2007, 02:43 AM

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was there a forum roll back or something?
oRoXoRo
post Nov 28 2007, 03:45 AM

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QUOTE(MasterAlvin @ Nov 28 2007, 02:43 AM)
was there a forum roll back or something?
*
obviously, yes. rclxm9.gif
SUSFlizzardo
post Nov 28 2007, 01:40 PM

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no i think i just went back to time its not the forum!
MasterAlvin
post Nov 29 2007, 12:09 AM

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oh the posts came back.
ellimist
post Nov 29 2007, 09:08 AM

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QUOTE(MasterAlvin @ Nov 26 2007, 09:43 PM)
that's the thing... dota doesnt have that many engagements.
troops that actually matters dun die that often, so the shifting in dominance happens quite late in the game and quite slowly.
that's why it kills the spectatorship.

the original WC3 is different. once the first engagement starts, fights are often and shift of dominance happens constantly until the game ends.
now that's why they have lots of downloads.
*
Actually, engagements are more frequent in Dota games these days,I think tongue.gif Watch Virtus.Pro replays,especially the 2nd game in the finals of MYM Pride.Loadsa engagements right from the early parts of the game.

And yea,I'd agree with RtP|DEV that SC indeed has amazing spectator value,even to the casual gamer laugh.gif

This post has been edited by ellimist: Nov 29 2007, 09:09 AM
oRoXoRo
post Nov 29 2007, 12:04 PM

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IMO, SC also not that entertaining.(replays) Fun 2 play thou. I watched the replays but i would say its not as exciting as u said biggrin.gif that protoss was owning from the start of the game and conquered more of the mineral while terran waited to be slaughter.
RtP|DEV
post Nov 30 2007, 05:27 AM

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Are you serious. That was sure one of the pimpest game ive watched. One of the most brilliant tactical display i saw from a starcraft player. I thought Bisu(the protoss) was going to lose after he lost his 12's and 12's nat expo.

Basically at that time both players main and nat min already/almost depleted. He(Bisu) just lost both his source of income. Everyone thought he was dead meat. Then this genius calmly executed something unthinkable. Knowing that Hwasin's army(mostly tank) were at the 12 he bring his carrier down and kills Hwasin's expo near his base. He then build an island expo. Then He move to Hwasins third expo then killed zillions of goliath with storm, goon and his carrier. Then he destroyed Hwasin's last source of income, finished Hwasins remaining army up north. Hwasin with no army and income, GGed.

That protoss was owning from the start of the game and conquered more of the mineral while terran waited to be slaughter.

What do you mean?
His DT harass? His DT harass only did little damage to Hwasin.

Protoss was owning from the start because he got 3 expo while terran got 2?
Usually in most TvP matchup protoss will expand ahead of his opponent. If a toss didn't harass or out-macro his opponent, he's dead. There's no way toss can win without that advantage. Terran is the strongest 200/200 in starcraft.

Terran waited to be slaughter?
Terran is slow but strong. Siege tanks can create an impenetrable defensive line. Usually terran will wait for tank to reach certain number then he will push slowly while laying mine around the map. That's because siege tank power grow exponentially as their number increase. Another reason is toss will get his goons earlier than tank. So going out early to apply pressure to toss is out of question. Mass tanks(paired with vults or goli) melt protoss army. See its not like he waited to be slaughtered. That is just how ppl play terran in TvP.

Edit: I know its off topic here, but since i'm the one who post the video and said it's an interesting one. I feel the need to defend myself.

This post has been edited by RtP|DEV: Nov 30 2007, 05:39 AM
ellimist
post Nov 30 2007, 09:14 AM

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Haha yea,a lil off topic,but I do agree with you (though I didn't see it in such detail tongue.gif)

Basically I thought the balance was shifted to the toss early on,but then the balance shifted over to the terran as he invaded. I did think he was gonna win,but the carriers were thumbup.gif
Klesk
post Nov 30 2007, 11:17 AM

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QUOTE(RtP|DEV @ Nov 30 2007, 05:27 AM)
Are you serious. That was sure one of the pimpest game ive watched. One of the most brilliant tactical display i saw from a starcraft player. I thought Bisu(the protoss) was going to lose after he lost his 12's and 12's nat expo.

Basically at that time both players main and nat min already/almost depleted. He(Bisu) just lost both his source of income. Everyone thought he was dead meat. Then this genius calmly executed something unthinkable. Knowing that Hwasin's army(mostly tank) were at the 12 he bring his carrier down and kills Hwasin's expo near his base. He then build an island expo. Then He move to Hwasins third expo then killed zillions of goliath with storm, goon and his carrier. Then he destroyed Hwasin's last source of income, finished Hwasins remaining army up north. Hwasin with no army and income, GGed.

That protoss was owning from the start of the game and conquered more of the mineral while terran waited to be slaughter.

What do you mean?
His DT harass? His DT harass only did little damage to Hwasin.

Protoss was owning from the start because he got 3 expo while terran got 2?
Usually in most TvP matchup protoss will expand ahead of his opponent. If a toss didn't harass or out-macro his opponent, he's dead. There's no way toss can win without that advantage. Terran is the strongest 200/200 in starcraft.

Terran waited to be slaughter?
Terran is slow but strong. Siege tanks can create an impenetrable defensive line. Usually terran will wait for tank to reach certain number then he will push slowly while laying mine around the map. That's because siege tank power grow exponentially as their number increase. Another reason is toss will get his goons earlier than tank. So going out early to apply pressure to toss is out of question. Mass tanks(paired with vults or goli) melt protoss army. See its not like he waited to be slaughtered. That is just how ppl play terran in TvP.

Edit: I know its off topic here, but since i'm the one who post the video and said it's an interesting one. I feel the need to defend myself.
*
i just watched the replay it was nice but think i've seen better ones, draco vs (dunno who), also a terran vs protoss match, erm... some jargons there i(and i think most of us here) dont understand, whats a "main and nat min","expo" and "DT"? i think the turning point of the game was the high templars, the psionic storms just obliterated terran's goliath, lol
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post Nov 30 2007, 01:10 PM

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well u got ur point there. lol. Maybe my style of starcraft aldy outdated. biggrin.gif But from what i saw is, protoss went for dark templar which is very deadly for terran to handle. And protoss did a fair dmg to terran by using dark templar while still looking/found another base 2 harvest. While terran focusing on repair/defensive/covering the dmg done. And
blablabla......there goes terran in this game.

I can say that we have different opinions in this game. Thats all biggrin.gif protoss owning from the start of the game was just something I exaggerated tongue.gif

This post has been edited by oRoXoRo: Nov 30 2007, 01:18 PM
RtP|DEV
post Nov 30 2007, 03:56 PM

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QUOTE(oRoXoRo @ Nov 30 2007, 01:10 PM)
well u got ur point there. lol. Maybe my style of starcraft aldy outdated. biggrin.gif
*
One thing beautiful about starcraft is the gameplay change every year. The game evolves.
Paradigm shift happens a lot in Starcraft. There's no need for patch to change how we play the game. Instead every year new bonjwa rise to the throne and change how we play starcraft.

Let me quote these 2 forumers on teamliquid.net
I read this comment while browsing a thread on tl.net and they were discussing about WCG 2007 wc3 game.

Forumer A:
"i stopped playing warcraft more than 1 year ago and i just noticed:
the players, the maps, the strats, the hero choices, the creep patterns, everything is exactly like when i quit! blizzard truly abandoned warcraft back in 2005 or whenever the last patch was released."

Forumer B:
"and Boxer goes to the army for 2 months, and when he comes back he says that the gameplay is totally different than before he left.
Starcraft is a living thing.
Warcraft is a video game."

Thats one of the reason starcraft has so much spectator value. Ppl dont like to see the same thing over and over again. Every season (a season is 4 month) they change the map pool for starcraft. Since the first Starleague, professional starcraft games were played in more than 75 maps(rough estimation, too lazy to count myself). So different compared to warcraft3 that uses the same 9 ladder map since yrs ago or DotA that is a map itself.

Malaysian don't realize that spectators are so important to e-sports. Spectators are the one that made e-sports big in Korea. Not the gamers themselves. I bet we had the same number of geek who play video game here as it is in Korea. Look at Liga Malaysia, no ppl come to watch them play. Who want to sponsor them? How to expand the league without sponsors?

Thats why i pity ppl who refuse to play sc because its a 9 yr and 8 month game.
oRoXoRo
post Nov 30 2007, 04:16 PM

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hey hey ..im fan/player of Starcraft man. Just that nobody is playing it now so i cant play. Still miss the good old days. biggrin.gif This thread is going to the wrong direction.. oh well :/

P/S Yeah i agree with you on ur opinion about spectators/fans. But during early stage, need supportive players more. And about dota replays whether it is interesting to watch or not I would say it depends on the individual. Malaysian Dota quite boring cause they wont dare to take risk to use some kind of new tactic and they rather stick on with the same old tactic that have more % to win.(even thou they might have the skill to try new tactic but they rather not)

When u watch it live, it's nice. Let it be o2jam,cs,dota,warcraft or fifa. But not replays.

This post has been edited by oRoXoRo: Nov 30 2007, 04:24 PM
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