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 Can we sue Gov. hospital or Doctor for negligence?, Please read the content first.

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ry8128
post Dec 7 2023, 06:10 AM

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QUOTE(hihihehe @ Dec 7 2023, 12:09 AM)
i assume more into "justice" or self-assuring

many people will always look back what could be done at that time so he could have different ending

I have been there and have that same mindset but decided to let it go as there was no fault with the procedures from the doctor
*
Understand. This could be from the result of grieving. Maybe ts should wait few more days and decide again after he calm down? If he still think should sue, then by all means go all out on it.
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post Dec 7 2023, 07:10 AM

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-Covid cleared
-Oxygen level improved to 95%
-Awake and able to do minimal activities

Sorry for your loss, but as I see it, there is no more reason for the doctor to keep him in UNICU.

As you know with the current covid and influenza outbreak gov hospitals are overloaded and they have to prioritise those that really need beds in critical wards.

Life and death is unpredictable.

You can try sue the doctor for negligence, but for what? To get revenge on the doctor?
hksgmy
post Dec 7 2023, 07:16 AM

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So sorry for your loss. My condolences to you and your family.
68 others
post Dec 7 2023, 07:50 AM

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maybe the doctor or nurse could have done something to rescue him, but where are you during that time?
kidmad
post Dec 7 2023, 07:54 AM

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condolences to you.. really sad to hear such case but sometime shit happens.

my brother was cleared after a month living in the hospital. Doctor said everything was looking good and sent him home.. He passed away the same night around 4am without us knowing. There's nothing much can be done.
loui
post Dec 7 2023, 08:10 AM

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Can but the process is very messy

1. Apply for medical reports
2. Find a medical malpractice lawyer to comment and review the document
3. If yes, your lawyer will need to file the claim in court (government hospital don't negotiate, you will need to go full trial to prove your case)
4. Hospital will get DPP to defend the case
5. DPP common tactic is to apply for strike out because lawyer failed to name all the doctors treated the patient (hence important to get a good lawyer)
6. By this time, hospital will turn hostile to you and will do all necessary to not provide all the information needed
7. You need to get another specialist doctor to review the whatever report you have to pin point where is the missing link
8. Apply for discovery(compel hospital to give all medical notes) in court. Emphasize the missing link to convince the judge that it is reasonable demand to ask for the medical notes
9. You will get a bunch of messy and unrefined medical notes
10. You need to go back to the same specialist doctor with the notes to get him to comment on the negligence of hospital

(Step one)
-------

Only if both your lawyer and specialist doctor agreed that there is a case for you, then baru proceed part two, which is full litigation

Expect to spend no less then 20K for lawyer and specialist fees.

Most medical malpractice lawyer charge by hour, it starts to count the moment you pass them document

This post has been edited by loui: Dec 7 2023, 08:12 AM
minoru89
post Dec 7 2023, 08:40 AM

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QUOTE(adamfoo90 @ Dec 6 2023, 09:02 PM)
On 20th November 2023, My father was admitted to UNICU HKL due to lack of oxygen, private hospitals cannot check him in because he is a transplant patient and he has records in Government's HKL

Due to this we are forced to admit him into HKL, 3 days later after admittance, hospital announce that they have detected a CAT5 COVID confirmed within his system, hence moved him into Isolated UNICU for personal nurse to monitor him.
His oxygen levels are improving slowly at around 90-95, as he's still awake and able to do minimal activities.

On the 3rd of December, his COVID was confirmed by doctor to be no more. But he must remain in UNICU (High Dependency ICU) for further monitoring due to post COVID effect still linger around.

5th December, a doctor written a transfer letter to have him transferred from a High Dependency ICU Ward to a Normal Ward in Institut Perubatan Respirasi (IPR) at 6PM, he arrived there by 6:30PM being placed on a normal ward along with other patients.

He was doing well on same day at 11PM we last checked with him, until later at 3:30AM, we received a call from the doctor there that he has breathing difficulties, asking all of us as a family to get there as soonest.

The time we reach there, almost 4AM on the clock, he's already laying there, lifeless.

We asked the doctor why won't they inform us sooner to allow us exchange a few more words before his passing, doctor then informed us his actual passing time is 3:10AM.

Prayers and Post Mortem is under way..
So the question is :

On the scenario above, can we hire a lawyer to sue either the hospital or the doctor in charge who transferred him for negligence.

As we believe that if he remained in UNICU with a personal nurse monitoring him, he would still be alive and well. We are very disappointed where the doctor who transferred him did not remark that this patient requires High Dependency Ward for close monitoring.

The patient was transferred there but only lasted 7 hours due to breathing difficulty and passed away without being monitored closely.
That being said, Please advise, because us as a family are unable to accept this.
*
Doctors cannot play god. Live or die are not at the hands of the doctors.


It is normal procedure to transfer between wards when current situation permits and your case is not isolated. I lost a grandmother exactly the same way, somehow you need to learn how to let go and come with the terms. The government hospitals and staffs are doing the best to serve the public and not just your family. They are understaffed, working long hours with high patient rate and now has to deal with nonsense like you.

zstan
post Dec 7 2023, 09:06 AM

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Yes you can definitely sue the doctors for negligence.
andrwss
post Dec 7 2023, 09:45 AM

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QUOTE(minoru89 @ Dec 7 2023, 08:40 AM)
Doctors cannot play god. Live or die are not at the hands of the doctors.
It is normal procedure to transfer between wards when current situation permits and your case is not isolated. I lost a grandmother exactly the same way, somehow you need to learn how to let go and come with the terms. The government hospitals and staffs are doing the best to serve the public and not just your family. They are understaffed, working long hours with high patient rate and now has to deal with nonsense like you.
*
Totally agree. Hope ts don't waste doctor/hospital time and money for nonsense things, I think they did their job reasonably in this case. Overwhelming work from free healthcare in Malaysia already put doctors under great stress, plus dealing with nonsense things every now and then.
Avangelice
post Dec 7 2023, 09:58 AM

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I honestly don't see any negligence on the attending doctors part and what you are doing is clearly denial and anger talking but open your mind abit and put your shoes in the doctor. Intensive care units are always constantly full & the doctor made a call to shift him back the moment he's better so another person like your dad is able to go in.

So let's just say I as that attending made the call to keep your dad there ecenthough he's improved but the other patient waiting there flatlined because they couldn't intubate him with a full staff on board due to covid.

So that family sues the doctor?

I know you are grieving but what you are doing is akin to an asshole. And patients like you are one of the factors why many doctors commit suicide

This post has been edited by Avangelice: Dec 7 2023, 02:21 PM
hksgmy
post Dec 7 2023, 10:26 AM

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QUOTE(loui @ Dec 7 2023, 08:10 AM)
Can but the process is very messy

1. Apply for medical reports
2. Find a medical malpractice lawyer to comment and review the document
3. If yes, your lawyer will need to file the claim in court (government hospital don't negotiate, you will need to go full trial to prove your case)
4. Hospital will get DPP to defend the case
5. DPP common tactic is to apply for strike out because lawyer failed to name all the doctors treated the patient (hence important to get a good lawyer)
6. By this time, hospital will turn hostile to you and will do all necessary to not provide all the information needed
7. You need to get another specialist doctor to review the whatever report you have to pin point where is the missing link
8. Apply for discovery(compel hospital to give all medical notes) in court. Emphasize the missing link to convince the judge that it is reasonable demand to ask for the medical notes
9. You will get a bunch of messy and unrefined medical notes
10. You need to go back to the same specialist doctor with the notes to get him to comment on the negligence of hospital

(Step one)
-------

Only if both your lawyer and specialist doctor agreed that there is a case for you, then baru proceed part two, which is full litigation

Expect to spend no less then 20K for lawyer and specialist fees.

Most medical malpractice lawyer charge by hour, it starts to count the moment you pass them document
*
Excellent summary. To add on to the above, I can provide TS the view from the hospital/doctor's/expert medical witness perspective. I've been called to testify as an expert witness in the past, and there are a few issues that limit the effectiveness of such testimony, whether it's for or against the plaintiff's case.

1. Collegiality. This is one of the strong tenets of the foundation of medical practice anywhere in the world. Many times, we've been unfairly accused of 'banding' together and not willing to speak up against another professional in 50-50 medical cases (clear negligence, misconduct, molestations/sexual crimes obviously do not fall in this category). The rationale behind this is that patients are complex and unique individuals, and best practices merely mean it covers the area under the Bell's Curve for 60% of the patients, with 20% on either end belonging to the "others" category. If I think about the significance of that, it simply means that what happened to one doctor could easily have happened to me - and thus, unless the case is clearly one of gross mismanagement medically, wrong medications administered, wrong organ surgically removed, gross negligence of care on part of the attending doctor etc, most of the time, the tragedy is placed on the complexity of the patient's case, and the unpredictable nature that is life.

2. Bolam and Bolitho - the twin pillars of proof of negligence: In medical negligence litigation, a key step is for the claimant is to prove that the physician or the doctor failed to meet the required standard of care. The traditional test in law in such cases remains the Bolam test which states that a doctor is not negligent if what he has done would be endorsed by a responsible body of medical opinion in the relevant specialty at the material time. The Bolitho Test, which is a later test and is an amendment to the Bolam Test, helped to clarify what was meant by “a responsible body,” defining it as one whose opinion had a “logical basis.” So, if the attending doctor has done what was required at that time, according to best practices - e.g. room O2 saturations, Pulse rate, BP sans inotropes all being stable enough to warrant a transfer out of ICU - the doctor cannot be held responsible for the unfortunate events that transpired post the transfer (refer to No. 1 above).

3. Not just one medical expert, and no gold standard. Whilst the plaintiff can call upon his own roster of medical experts, so can the hospital, and it's not uncommon to have 2 pre-eminent giants & experts in their fields clash in court. And, just like reasonable doubt, if 2 experts can't agree, what chance does the plaintiff think the judge and jury, who are laypersons not trained in the intricacies and complexities of medicine, could? In that case, most often than not (except in America, where lawyers run the medical service), the doctor will not be blamed - because he did not stand to gain from the patient's demise, nor was the demise an act of malice on his part.

4. The pre-existing state of the patient. If this was a strapping, healthy young man with no pre-existing medical conditions, the weigh of evidence may be shifted somewhat in the plaintiff's favour vs if this were a case of an elderly patient with complex co-morbidity & post-transplant on immunosuppressant therapy. Index of survival would be obviously different, and the evidence may be shifted away from a favourable ruling given the latter scenario. It's a sad fact of life that limited resources in the face of unlimited requirements require harsh decisions to be made on the part of the attending doctor - the ICU bed may be needed for a more urgent case that had a better chance of survival, and who's to say that new patient's life is worth less than the old one's? It's never easy.

5. Last by not least: Cost. I was asked to give expert testimony in one simple case, and had my AEIC (affidavit evidence in chief) drafted by the lawyers, but obviously required multiple amendments and corrections on my part, and I only turned up for one session of the High Court hearing. The bill from my practice to the defendants (who won the case, by the way) came up to nearly SGD30,000. And that particular case was a simple one, where the judge took my testimony, weighed it with that of the countering expert's, and ruled in our favour without needing more evidence to be presented. I can't imagine what a complicated case would entail. Since that one case, I've never availed myself for such duties anymore - it simply isn't worth the money, and it also meant bruising the egos of colleagues on the opposing end - not an experience I wish to repeat.

The receipt which I generated, and of which I still keep a copy in .pdf format till this very day, with the details redacted obviously:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


I'm not trying to pour cold water onto TS's case, and if he feels there's definite grounds to go on in terms of negligence by the doctor, then by all means, he should go ahead to seek an answer at the very least. I hope he finds peace no matter what the outcome is, but I also hope that he enters into this with his eyes wide open and realise the enormity of the task ahead of him.

This post has been edited by hksgmy: Dec 7 2023, 10:42 AM
hksgmy
post Dec 7 2023, 10:34 AM

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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Dec 7 2023, 09:58 AM)
I honestly don't see any negligence on the attending doctors part and what you are doing is clearly denial and anger talking but open your mind abit and put your shoes in the doctor. Intensive care units are always constantly full & the doctor made a call to shift him back the moment he's better so another person like your dad is able to go in.

So let's just say I as that attending made the call to keep your dad there ecenthough he's improves but the other patient waiting there flatlined because they couldn't intubate him with a full staff on board due to covid.

So that family sues the doctor?


I know you are grieving but what you are doing is akin to an asshole. And patients like you are one of the factors why many doctors commit suicide
*
This is exactly what I meant.

I hope TS finds peace and closure.
Sunshape
post Dec 7 2023, 11:15 AM

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Many had experience the same like TS. I believe the life of a person is already doomed? No one can predict and control?
Chrono-Trigger
post Dec 7 2023, 12:13 PM

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first, they don't have to help you.

You went for them for help, they tried to help.

Your father got better, ICU beds probably full waiting list for other patients. He was moved to other units.

No one wants bad things to happen, but they do happen.

And when it happens, you go back and sue the very people that tried to help you.

p/s put it on hindsight, if the hospital knows you are going to be a difficult person to deal with, they could have turned you away , citing full hospital beds...

But they didn't have a choice do they? they have to accept you....

Sorry for your loss TS, but you need to look at things objectively and don't let emotions cloud your perspective.

This post has been edited by Chrono-Trigger: Dec 7 2023, 12:18 PM
gheyfriend
post Dec 7 2023, 02:10 PM

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sorry for ur lost TS. sometimes when a person time is near, they will wake up sudenly cheer with us tok with us, then out of sudden when we go back..they went to a better place.
chromatino_hex
post Dec 7 2023, 03:07 PM

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To those who say the doctors are not at fault, you all are so cruel and heartless

I was screwed by doctors a long time ago for misdiagnosis and wrong prescription of medicine. This doctor prescribed me a type of medicine which caused me to suffer from permanent nerve damage. So I know exactly how TS feel. Rage and helplessness.

I am friends with a lot of doctors and dentists. They don't give a shit about their patients. 8 out of 10 are in it for the $$$ and party every weekend. TS should hire the best medical negligence lawyer (hire an army of lawyers because hospitals usually have strong in-house legal team) because every doctor who caused TS's father is liable for their incompetence

Do not worry about losing the case. Get an army of lawyers from top litigation firms because in-house lawyers are not as good as you think. They are just there for the monthly salary and hospitals can definitely afford to settle out of court. Seek justice for your father please; we need more legal precedent and demand for higher settlement as a result of medical negligence

This post has been edited by chromatino_hex: Dec 7 2023, 03:10 PM
chromatino_hex
post Dec 7 2023, 03:12 PM

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QUOTE(Chrono-Trigger @ Dec 7 2023, 12:13 PM)
first, they don't have to help you.

You went for them for help, they tried to help.

Your father got better, ICU beds probably full waiting list for other patients. He was moved to other units.

No one wants bad things to happen, but they do happen.

And when it happens, you go back and sue the very people that tried to help you.

p/s put it on hindsight, if the hospital knows you are going to be a difficult person to deal with, they could have turned you away , citing full hospital beds...

But they didn't have a choice do they? they have to accept you....

Sorry for your loss TS, but you need to look at things objectively and don't let emotions cloud your perspective.
*
You never suffered from the same predicament as TS. Have some empathy please, a lot of doctors are definitely incompetent. Have you ever been friends with doctors and dentists? A lot of them have no empathy towards their patients, party every weekend and show off their Lambo and Ferrari. They should be accountable for their lack of sense and urgency and causing TS's father to encounter "preventable" death. So many innocent people passed away due to failed diagnosis and unsafe medical procedures conducted by doctors under the pretence of medical professionals.

If you killed someone as a medical professional, regardless of whether it was an accident or as a result of negligence, you deserve to lose your license or even face suspension for a number of years (re-take paper and undergo more training). Accident is not an excuse to exempt someone from any form of liability.

There needs to be more awareness because in the US where its citizens are much more litigious, medical negligence settlements can go up to millions of USD whereas in Malaysia, people rarely sue their doctors.

This post has been edited by chromatino_hex: Dec 7 2023, 03:16 PM
Avangelice
post Dec 7 2023, 03:14 PM

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QUOTE(chromatino_hex @ Dec 7 2023, 03:07 PM)
To those who say the doctors are not at fault, you all are so cruel and heartless

I was screwed by doctors a long time ago for misdiagnosis and wrong prescription of medicine. This doctor prescribed me a type of medicine which caused me to suffer from permanent nerve damage. So I know exactly how TS feel. Rage and helplessness.

I am friends with a lot of doctors and dentists. They don't give a shit about their patients. 8 out of 10 are in it for the $$$ and party every weekend. TS should hire the best medical negligence lawyer (hire an army of lawyers because hospitals usually have strong in-house legal team) because every doctor who caused TS's father is liable for their incompetence

Do not worry about losing the case. Get an army of lawyers from top litigation firms because in-house lawyers are not as good as you think. They are just there for the monthly salary and hospitals can definitely afford to settle out of court. Seek justice for your father please; we need more legal precedent and demand for higher settlement as a result of medical negligence
*
You are ignorant to be making that comment and you expect doctors & dentist to quietly sip their wines on weekend to de-stress? People hv their own ways to de-stress and tell me which young doctor or dentist is flush with cash working with the government? You may be bitter because of a misdiagnosis and wrong prescription but I doubt there was malice involved so how much money did you pay your lawyers to lose the case?
chromatino_hex
post Dec 7 2023, 03:19 PM

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QUOTE(Avangelice @ Dec 7 2023, 03:14 PM)
You are ignorant to be making that comment and you expect doctors & dentist to quietly sip their wines on weekend to de-stress? People hv their own ways to de-stress and tell me which young doctor or dentist is flush with cash working with the government? You may be bitter because of a misdiagnosis and wrong prescription but I doubt there was malice involved so how much money did you pay your lawyers to lose the case?
*
Sure, one day when the same thing happen to you or one of your family members, you will retract this statement. But never mind, by that time, you are probably on your death bed already and cannot even sue your doctor.

By the way, the hospital settled out of court with me. So you are wrong

This post has been edited by chromatino_hex: Dec 7 2023, 03:20 PM
Avangelice
post Dec 7 2023, 03:21 PM

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QUOTE(chromatino_hex @ Dec 7 2023, 03:12 PM)
You never suffered from the same predicament as TS. Have some empathy please, a lot of doctors are definitely incompetent. Have you ever been friends with doctors and dentists? A lot of them have no empathy towards their patients, party every weekend and show off their Lambo and Ferrari. They should be accountable for their lack of sense and urgency and causing TS's father to encounter "preventable" death. So many innocent people passed away due to failed diagnosis and unsafe medical procedures conducted by doctors under the pretence of medical professionals.

If you killed someone as a medical professional, regardless of whether it was an accident or as a result of negligence, you deserve to lose your license or even face suspension for a number of years (re-take paper and undergo more training). Accident is not an excuse to exempt someone from any form of liability.

There needs to be more awareness because in the US where its citizens are much more litigious, medical negligence settlements can go up to millions of USD whereas in Malaysia, people rarely sue their doctors.
*
Based on a quick check on your post history in 2021. You are still in uni, tarc if believe? Major in math. So if you don't mind me asking how did you manage to mingle with successful doctors or dentist who have lambos who are normally very rich if they have been in the field for 8 to 10 years. Don't get me wrong, I really think you being friends with these people whilst you are struggling to finance your own studies makes me question your statement they are out for money.

You seem to be very bitter for something and channeling that bitterness to get another person who's obviously grieving and angry right now by giving the wrong advice is a dickish move

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