QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 7 2023, 12:59 PM)
Since you can agree that it's brought forth by the Holy Spirit, then by the same point, what this means is that the workings does not originate from our human effort. My point is, the culmination is the work of God, something as how the Bible puts it, we are not conscious of. (Matthew 25:37-40)
What the book of James is teaching has nothing to do with fruits of the Holy Spirit in relation to salvation. They are actions to everyday life living with God, where you are blessed with rewards or not and also to fulfil what God instruct us to do. Look at the examples, NONE of them are relevant to Salvation whatsoever. Whether you do it or not will only result in reward or no reward, furthering God's plan, hindering God's plan for his purpose.
Salvation is given by our faith in Christ in acknowledgment by confession of our mouth, IE... receiving who He is and what He has done.
I will repeat this as long as it takes, we are saved by the Blood of Christ, NOT by anything we do (ESPECIALLY the examples in James 2)
If we need to do works to qualify for Salvation, That makes it's a Works-based Salvation.
Doesn't matter whatever words used, Faith+Work are twins, both side of same coin, Culmination, etc ..in essence they all mean the same thing....----> it's still propagating a works+faith based Salvation.
Ephesians 2 doesn't agree to this.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV) - 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
The word "NOT" in verse 9 is very clear... NOT means No, can never be!
Bible is clear on this! Ephesians 2 is a very clear doctrine, Salvation CANNOT involve any of our works/deeds/effort...TO QUALIFY. (Emphasis bold). Because otherwise we are violating Ephesians 2:8-9.
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"We are not conscious of"? Mat 25: 37-40 does not support your notion of "not conscious of". It actually supports works.
What James teaches is about faith. And salvation as you said it "is by faith in Jesus". James teaches the gist of faith.
It's not works. But faith which in Jewish thought is amalgamated with we modern Christians see it as works. You see it as works. Jews take it as a given. James teaches that. But you are trying very hard to not see it as faith. EMUNAH/PISTIS
Works salvation is when you are working to please god whoever it is, to gain salvation. This is the norm of all other religions. In the God that we know, love relationship begats love action. That is not works salvation. Mat 25: 37-40
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The Bible doesn't record everything that goes on, does it? No, but what is important, it is recorded for us to know. The account of Judas for example. He only saw Jesus as a teacher.
Peter acknowledge Christ As the Messiah (Matt 16), later he denied Christ (Bg no no), Yet Christ reinstated him later, what does that tells you? That works is criteria to Salvation? Then Peter would have forfeited himself then.
Thomas called Jesus, Lord (John 14:5), in the Greek (Kyrie) ref to Lord God. Quite sure the rest (Andrew, Simon Zealot, Batholomew) did not deny Christ claims of being Messiah/Lord.
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Your argument has no substance
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16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master(teacher).
Does that make Mary seeing Jesus wrongly after the resurrection?
Judas Iscariot didn’t set out on his journey to follow Jesus with betrayal on his mind. He followed Jesus because he truly believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah. He “believed” in Jesus. He was an “early adopter” and supporter.
He experienced all the teachings and miracles as the other disciples. Yet, he chose to betray Jesus over 30 pieces of silver.
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It's not only this 1 verse. Couple it with John 15:5, it is a seamless and consistent doctrine.
It's more than self-glorification. It has to do with human strength. The key to understanding this is in verse 6
2 Corinthians 12:6 (NIV) - But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted
by what I do or say. "by what I do or say" <---THIS. That has a lot to do with doings/saying ..our works. It can lead to self glorification, pride.
HENCE The Grace of Christ and Strength can only come in when we put ourselves in WEAK position (More accurately, Vulnerable position), absolving of all our own strength.
The MORE you think you're Strong, even though in your attempt to be STRONG before God...God's Grace and Strength CANNOT come in.
If God's grace and strength do not flow in believer's life....you'll end up working by the strength of your flesh.
Bro, you keep pinching single verses out of their context, you can make them say what you want.
Bible hermeneutics doesn't work that way.
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5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
Shalom
Aug 4 2023, 12:05 PM
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