‘Dead wrong’ to say Kedah was under Siamese rule, says professor

GEORGE TOWN: A claim that Kedah was once under Thailand, then known as Siam, and hence had no legitimate claim over Penang is dead wrong, a professor of Malay civilisation said today.

International Islamic University Malaysia’s Ahmad Murad Merican said Penang was once Kedah’s territory, a fact the British colonists themselves recognised.

“If the Siamese Kingdom had sovereignty and authority over Kedah, why did Francis Light and the British East India Company reach out to the sultan to occupy Penang?

“Why didn’t Light contact the Siamese king instead? The fact is Kedah was a recognised sovereign state, even by the British themselves,” he told FMT.

Murad, who is professor of social and intellectual history at the International Institute of Islamic Thought and Civilization, was responding to a claim by the Penang Heritage Trust (PHT) on the issue.

Spokesman for PHT, Clement Liang, had said Kedah was a vassal state of the Siamese Kingdom, with the Siamese effectively ceding Penang and Province Wellesley to the British in a treaty in 1826.

Citing Thai textbooks and the national museum in Bangkok, Liang said “Koh Mak” (or Penang Island) was the first “country” lost to a foreign power.

He also said the 1826 Burney Treaty saw Kedah and three other states being recognised as Siamese territories, while Penang and Province Wellesley were under the British.

Murad said Liang was wrong to use Thai history narratives, adding that the Siamese and British had signed contentious treaties without involving the Malay Rulers in Kedah.

“Why would we rely on another country’s perspective of our history?

“It is treacherous and seditious for PHT to make such claims based on the history narrated by another country.”

The Kedah sultanate, Murad said, was the oldest in the world. In its heyday, it reigned over the land from Phuket to Beruas in Perak, with a single family succeeding the throne until today.

“Siam might have had some control over Kedah at certain times, but claiming that it had sovereignty over Kedah throughout is dead wrong.

“The Siamese were not good neighbours. They have been grabbing land from Malay polities through their narratives and treaties. They have always been an adversary to the Malays,” he said.

Describing them as “land robbers”, he said they would have grabbed the whole Malay peninsula if they had been given the opportunity.

Murad said the truth was Penang was illegally occupied, plundered and vandalised by the British, as it was a Malay settlement under the Kedah sultanate.

He said to date, there was no evidence of the so-called lease agreement between Light and the then Kedah sultan, Sultan Abdullah, when he first arrived on the island in 1786.

“That so-called agreement remains a myth.”

sos



This post has been edited by Srbn: Nov 1 2021, 08:10 AM

So why Kedah used to pay ufti to Siam?

Ahmad Murad Merican ...

ini anak murica ????

actually Melaka until Temasik (Singapore) was ruled by Siam what,..

dulu masa sekolah, selalu baca hantar bunga emas, no?

So that dia tak kena attack lor

y sultan Kedah so diam diam?

Some have even claimed that the British never colonised this part of the world, if I recall correctly. Heh.

This whole thing started with that fat idiot la

I hope next time people would vote wisely

No more PAS

Melaka pay Ufti to CCP. So Melaka belong to China?

why Kedah can use border pass to thailand but penang nid passport

a small insignificant island

that's poor logic, of course you'd look at materials from other countries to contrast local materials. you cant say 'why didnt the british consult siam on penang?' when they did talk to siam years later on the entirety of kedah.

the best he could say is that kedah was a sovereign kingdom that was a vassal of siam, and argue the significance of tribute. tribute can be a recognition of the other's sovereignty over you, simply protection money, or in the unique system of china, a form of government trade (chinese emperor re-gifted more than what they receive, so kingdoms sent tributes often because its profitable).

The word they used was 'tidak pernah dijajah'. This is semantics, because dijajah means conquered. And we were never conquered, per se. We were colonised.

Hence technically, you can see why they say 'tidak pernah dijajah'.

Professor but doesn't know the meaning of vassal state or vassalage. Ask him to go play more Civilization. Phoondeck.

Nampak muka dan bunyi nama dah tao professor kangkung.... stop reading at AMM

kalau tak bayar Ufti how?
like kalau cainis tak bayar tax how?

so in the end is under siam lo.

What is "colonised" in Malay?

In google translate, it just say dijajah also.

I don't think Malay makes a different between conquered, and colonized.

do u read write n understand english ?

Hmmm....

I too was under that impression. dijajah = colonized

Bangsa mamak maa...unlimited hikmat putaran alam semesta

Protection money for abang kawasan

Hati Tissue, Maruah di cabar
so ....
Saya putar Halim!
Rasuah oso can become donasi!
Pirates of the CariBN oso da jadi HEROES!
#ApaMaluBossKu!

basically indian who convert to muslim

along the way become malay bumi

"International Islamic University"

Lol no

so a preacher try to change the history....are we going to get history book revised ? Soon this preacher going to say, we win the war over british and japan so british and japan never came here

Textbook fascist/ dictator wannabes

these mamak really pandai putar halim I tell you

they are also not local but act like real local knn

This post has been edited by JimbeamofNRT: Nov 1 2021, 09:16 AM

Describing them as “land robbers”, he said they would have grabbed the whole Malay peninsula if they had been given the opportunity.


How true is this?

Trying hard to become important

why the war lost to francis light ?

https://www.bharian.com.my/rencana/sastera/...turunan-merican

tamil nadu descendant


just be proud of yourself lah. why changed to jawi peranakan, jawi pekan, real wtf.

Sejarah books don't specifically introduce a specific word for it. It just used 'dikolonisasi' or 'menjadi koloni'.

My dad, who is a historian in Selangor, been talking about the difference between colonised and conquered since I was small. But this only came to the limelight recently. And he just sat back and said 'I told you so'.

But many historians still debating about this. Personally, I do agree that there's a difference between colonised and conquered. The conquered will have no political will, no governance, total assimilation to the conquering nation with their original identities suppressed.

They are not Indian who convert to muslim.
But one of 1st muslim who travel from India/middle east teach & then convert Malays from Hindu/Buddha to be muslim.

Colonised and conquered? Whats difference? Is it the method?

Sultan Kedah the biggest joke of all time when it came to ploteking his kingdom.

I only know Francis J. Underwood

OK. Thanks for the insight!

We definitely didn't have political will or governance. Its all in the hands of the British. Maybe you can argue for Islamic matter yes, but that because the British didn't care for Islam (obviously).

As far for total assimilation, I think many countries in the world were conquered without total assimilation.

Because if you are arguing conquered = total assimilation, I think you can argue that British technically never conquered anyone. Even the Indians retained their identities.

Yet India were clearly under the British empire.

This post has been edited by changejob: Nov 1 2021, 09:32 AM

hmm.. more than 300 years later to find back maruah err?

Really maruah dicabar.

That's the thing: The English don't use the word "conquered". They avoid using it. They believe in some form of parent-child relationship between them and the colonized countries. All commonwealth countries were under the British Empire, but we were not conquered. We were colonised.

Burney Treaty 1826 - The treaty acknowledged Siamese claims over the five northern Malay states of Kedah, Kelantan, Perlis, Terengganu—the future Unfederated Malay States—and Patani.
The treaty further guaranteed British possession of Penang and their rights to trade in Kelantan and Terengganu without Siamese interference.

Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909 - Thailand relinquished its claims to sovereignty over Kedah ,Kelantan , Perlis and Terengganu

Article 1
The Siamese government transfers to the British government all rights of suzerainty, protection, administration and control whatsoever which they possess over the states of Kelantan, Tringganu, Kedah, Perlis, and adjacent islands. The frontiers of these territories are defined by the boundary protocol annexed hereto.


----

how lah this topkek fella can become professor?

But teacher, isn't what was interpreted in Kamus Dewan dan Pustaka translate that dijajah is colonise?

Then isn't conquered in Malay, ditawan?

International Islamic University Malaysia’s Ahmad Murad Merican

His face looks exactly like I predicted.




‘Dead wrong’ to say Kedah was under Siamese rule, says professor


"In 1813, King Rama II commanded Sultan Ahmad Tajuddin Halim Shah of Kedah to bring the Sultanate of Perak under Siamese control. Sultan Ahmad Tajuddin Halim Shah then sent forces to capture and occupy Perak under the domination of Kedah on behalf of Siam in 1818.[4] This earned Sultan Ahmad Tajuddin Halim Shah a great favor of the Siamese king, who raised the sultan to the rank of Chao Phraya - which was superior to Nakhon Noi the governor of Ligor or Nakhon Si Thammarat who held the rank of Phraya. In 1811, Sultan Ahmad Tajuddin Halim Shah came into conflicts with his brother Tunku Bisnu. Tunku Bisnu approached Phraya Nakhon Noi of Ligor and sought Siamese support. Tunku Bisnu was then made the ruler of Setul. "

Not only was Kedah under Siamese rule, the Kedahan even helped to rogol other states.
Some historian would say Kedah is Siam's anjing.


This IIUM no teach real history ah? Or they drink lot of ketum and syabu same like Sanusi.

so if not conquered then why celebrate merdeka?

Better cancel this waste of tax payer money then.

best thing is, british dem smart to play on both side

kedah blockade 1838 - arms, ammunition and other stuff were smuggled by British merchants in Penang to the Kedah Sultan's army

That is also why some historian claim that some states in Malaysia were never conquered.

There is also a term in the proclaimation of indepedence that stated 'termination of agreements' between British and Malay rulers. Normally, no conquered land have agreements with the conqueror. So in this aspect, colonisation by British were not 'considered' as conquered.

Buku sejarah during my Form 2 time also said "Kedah ditakluki oleh Siam", how?

this tactic taken from the Romans or earlier. control the populace, but don't touch their religion, otherwise you'll get a rebellion very quickly.

And we here argue thanks to fatty at Kedah that can't find a single sen for their state, instead of finding solution, he create more problem

I remember my history lessons decades ago - the words used were penjajahan, dijajah, etc.

What is the Malay equivalent for "colonisation"?

kennot.
indian nuke not yet nerf

Also please withdraw from the Commonwealth Conference and Games

As per the treaty said, "Acknowledged Siamese claims".

This was done without representation of the 5 Malay states.

British need only a guarantee for their expension without interference from Siam. They are not really interested in the legallity of it, whether it exist of not.

Kedah only dijajah ford raptor

later they question "siapa publisher buku, must be c*na yang buat hal trying to putar history"

btw Sultan Ahmad Tajuddin, Sultan Kedah during that time was in exile @ Penang when it happened. he fleed during the 1821 war and was eventually restored to the Kedah Sultanate in 1842 under Siamese suzerainty

Last time whole of malaydia under malacca. So have pay malacca la..malacca king was parameswara from Indonesia. So have to ask Indonesia.

Shiok sendiri statement.

Dongzong and DAP only believe in Siam history textbooks, not your history book. 🤭

Vassal is correct..too bad most M’s command of English is not to that level yet, neither are their general knowledge capacity. No need to ask if pas is smart or just silo in what they know, kambing lagi pandai.

What about what this guy wrote above?

I smell bullshit.

Well, simple term is like other people already said - Vassalage.

A vassal state is not the same as " x is under the rule of x"

Hidup PENANG

Apa yang saya tahu ialah Kedah dan Kelantan adalah punca Tanah Melayu jatuh ke tangan Jepun dalam Perang Dunia Kedua.

Kedah easier to dupe than siam

Why is our history keep changing, wondered when it will stopped...

Malaya under British rule also not 100% british rule. Only the Straits Settlements (Penang, Malacca & Singapore) are. Others are autonomous vassal states under the rule of their local Sultans.

(FMT) – As a debate over an annual honorarium rages, a heritage expert has given a brief outline of Penang’s history since Kedah leased it to the British in 1786.

Clement Liang, a council member of Penang Heritage Trust, said Kedah had no territorial right over the island when it agreed to the lease because it was Thailand, then known as Siam, that had sovereignty over it.

Kedah leased it without the Siamese king’s knowledge, he said.

Thai history textbooks and the national museum in Bangkok show that Penang island, or Koh Mak, was the first territory that Siam lost to a western power.

Liang said Saiburi, as Kedah was known then, was in subsequent years raided frequently by the Siamese force for its disobedience. In 1821, a war known as Perang Bisik saw Kuala Kedah destroyed and thousands of Kedahans escaping to Province Wellesley for safety and resettlement.

Siam, not Kedah, lost Penang to the British, says expert

If we are not going to acknowledge the Sulu claim on Sabah how can we acknowledge this? Next thing you know people will be making stupid claims like they own something because they used to go fishing there. Oh wait China is already doing that.

Its like a jobless man keep saying he was never bullied in the past.

Focus on finding job lar.. dont feel proud about past and ignore current condition , go bully neighbors somemore.

This post has been edited by alanyuppie: Nov 1 2021, 11:23 AM

"the treaty is their narrative, I am going with my narrative" - 'the professor'

kedah is the dog that causes other states to lose power to siam

Bayar jer la Penang. Instead of wasting rakyat money on billions dollar of feasibility study that never will materialize.

Southern thailand was part of a bunch of malay sultanates until the early 20th century when those sultans got conned by the british and siam

Fact is if the British did not forced Siam to ceded Perlis, Kedah, Kelantan & Terenganu to British, those territory will faced the same fate as Satun, Narathiwat & Pattani.

Why not.

Holy people - kill people oso remain holy.

OmegeLuL.

Litreally 24/7 cannot tahan to show their 5Head to the world.

according to Oxford Cambridge,
Kedah was not conquered by Siam because Kedah was already part of Sukothai Ayutthaya before Siam exist

miskin tak mahu nak buat kerja , tapi cari sejarah nak tambah pendapatan.

And Siam King requires approval from China. So China is the master of the masters?

First thing first , is he a history professor ??

king siam smoke jpg

but China kena hantam by jipun and AMDK..

Who the fak care? Penang not under kedah now so diam je la

kelantan darul siam

Fact is.
Both are korek

Kedah was a sovereign state when they lease Penang
Kedah wasn't a sovereign state after leasing Penang.

Kedah lease Penang with an agreement that Brits help them defend themselves again Siam. But when Siam attacks, Brits join Siam instead. Siam get Kedah & Brits get seberang Prai.

Thought it doesn't take long before Brits screw Siam and took over the 4 states eventually when they heard wind that Siam want to sell Langkawi to Germany.

Kedah was split into 6 then if not mistaken. 1 becum Perlis the other get annex into upper Perak, satun stay under Siam till today.

This post has been edited by darth5zaft: Nov 1 2021, 01:32 PM

Harap sanusi hantar tuntutan kepada kerajaan thai dan perak juga

malacca also pay ufti to china. but china doesnt own malacca. its kinda like protection money.

perlis women very putih lol

first time go there (pre-COVID) was very very impressed with the quality.

vassal state doesnt meant ownage. see wiki sos definition

it says there siam invaded kedah. before this kedah is a sovereign state tapi ada big bro called siam. kedah has to pay protection money to big bro. sometime big bro asked kedah to beat other kids on behalf.

kedah no like doing big bro siam bidding so try to nego with foreign bro (british). turn out foreign bro was a bitch no give help when big bro siam beat (invaded) kedah.

make matter worse, the foreign bitch make side deal with big bro siam to screw kedah.

kapish?

Where did you learn this myth?

I am quite certain it doesn't exist in Siam textbooks and Dongzong history syllabus. 🤭

haha, its in KSSM textbooks.

who the fucuk care about siam textbooks or dongzhong.

All nutty professor. No need to argue because when Malaysia form Penang is not part of Kedah. All stupik bugger make noise like genius. They not even respect federal constitution & Malaysia formation. Should strip all those noisy monkey citizenship & go back to their colonial time.

yes...after Timah....this is the focus....

I somehow feel that the prof is too emotional in his rebuttals.

Pernah ke, tak pernah ke .... so ?

maruah tercalar punya pasal izit ?