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 House rewiring, Old wire melt

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TSWanie404.
post Sep 8 2021, 03:33 AM, updated 5y ago

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My neighbour house almost on fire last time due to wire melt while using some appliances , i think microwave.

Since this is very old house on taman area.. very long time ago
Wiring also start aging too

Guys, can suggest what wire to use that good handling appliances like aircond, hair dryer, washing machine, water heater etc

I want to adviced those nice folks on this wiring issue.. but i no idea to say

Plz help
SUSceo684
post Sep 8 2021, 04:20 AM

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Stiff cable (inside wall conduit): Mega Kabel or Caramay cables. A lot of fake or undersized cable these days.

Extension cable (flexicord) use Fajar Cable 2.5mm² (as thick as index finger) will be as good as the cables inside the wall.

Proper cable sizing for the load is important.
Loose connections cause fire.
Cables without mfg spec "nametag" on it are suspicious.. and cheap. If the cable cut corner it is in their interest that they can just wash hands, if it melted and catch fire..do you see the mfg name on it? No right? whistling.gif so kenot sue anyone.

Many ways to cut corner. But many people only see which contractor give absolute rock bottom pricing. Same as car respray.. the normal priced proper job last 10 yrs.. it is also possible to request elcheapo job just to sell the car that only last 13 months before peeling laugh.gif

Another aspect to consider, esp in older homes pls change all those old magnetic choke fire risk flourescent tube to chokeless LED casing and LED tube. This is pretty cheap and eliminate a lot of potential fire hazard due to choke insulation degraded from heat/old age..if that hot plastic melt and drip down it is hot and can start a fire when drip on carpet or other stuff.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Sep 8 2021, 06:01 AM
mini orchard
post Sep 8 2021, 06:13 AM

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QUOTE(Wanie404. @ Sep 8 2021, 03:33 AM)
My neighbour house almost on fire last time due to wire melt while using some appliances , i think microwave.

Since this is very old house on taman area.. very long time ago
Wiring also start aging too

Guys, can suggest what wire to use that good handling appliances like aircond, hair dryer, washing machine, water heater etc

I want to adviced those nice folks on this wiring issue.. but i no idea to say

Plz help
*
Many want new and cheap and NOT new and expensive. Always hire a qualified person to do.
TSWanie404.
post Sep 8 2021, 01:56 PM

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QUOTE(mini orchard @ Sep 8 2021, 06:13 AM)
Many want new and cheap and NOT new and expensive. Always hire a qualified person to do.
*
Due to budget constraints
Not posible to hire consultant just for consulting

Sad.. but its life
TSWanie404.
post Sep 8 2021, 01:58 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Sep 8 2021, 04:20 AM)
Stiff cable (inside wall conduit): Mega Kabel or Caramay cables. A lot of fake or undersized cable these days.

Extension cable (flexicord) use Fajar Cable 2.5mm² (as thick as index finger) will be as good as the cables inside the wall.

Proper cable sizing for the load is important.
Loose connections cause fire.
Cables without mfg spec "nametag" on it are suspicious.. and cheap. If the cable cut corner it is in their interest that they can just wash hands, if it melted and catch fire..do you see the mfg name on it? No right? whistling.gif so kenot sue anyone.

Many ways to cut corner. But many people only see which contractor give absolute rock bottom pricing. Same as car respray.. the normal priced proper job last 10 yrs.. it is also possible to request elcheapo job just to sell the car that only last 13 months before peeling laugh.gif

Another aspect to consider, esp in older homes pls change all those old magnetic choke fire risk flourescent tube to chokeless LED casing and LED tube. This is pretty cheap and eliminate a lot of potential fire hazard due to choke insulation degraded from heat/old age..if that hot plastic melt and drip down it is hot and can start a fire when drip on carpet or other stuff.
*
Can u share link maybe shopee or lazada link for those type of wire? Want to buy but donno which one and how long

Plz advised

SUSceo684
post Sep 8 2021, 02:22 PM

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QUOTE(Wanie404. @ Sep 8 2021, 01:58 PM)
Can u share link maybe shopee or lazada link for those type of wire? Want to buy but donno which one and how long

Plz advised
*
I assume u mean for extension cord.

For 2.5mm² fajar cable loose cut is https://s.lazada.com.my/s.W2vDC

Proper cable got nametag who make it, cable spec, MS malaysian standard blabla proudly marked on it. See attachment.

In wall ones 2.5mm² generally will work as long as you get mega kabel. In wall one by right you should hire a proper electrician with minimum PW1 cert to do. Janji you specifically say caramay or mega kabel 2.5 he or she will know what to do. Those will also have mfg nametag marking on it, and he or she will show it to you before installing IF its legit cable. Do not use other funny brand. Cheap but as I said got many fake cable around. https://www.sirim-qas.com.my/forgery-on-license-no-pc000218/

For water heater (WH) regulation compliant is to use 4mm² if want up to code with a 10mA RCD for each WH circuit. Many will skimp at 2.5mm² also can lah but its a close one eye installation.


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mini orchard
post Sep 8 2021, 04:28 PM

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QUOTE(Wanie404. @ Sep 8 2021, 01:56 PM)
Due to budget constraints
Not posible to hire consultant just for consulting

Sad.. but its life
*
But when life is gone ..... is sad
TSWanie404.
post Sep 8 2021, 06:39 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Sep 8 2021, 02:22 PM)
I assume u mean for extension cord.

For 2.5mm² fajar cable loose cut is https://s.lazada.com.my/s.W2vDC

Proper cable got nametag who make it, cable spec, MS malaysian standard blabla proudly marked on it. See attachment.

In wall ones 2.5mm² generally will work as long as you get mega kabel. In wall one by right you should hire a proper electrician with minimum PW1 cert to do. Janji you specifically say caramay or mega kabel 2.5 he or she will know what to do. Those will also have mfg nametag marking on it, and he or she will show it to you before installing IF its legit cable. Do not use other funny brand. Cheap but as I said got many fake cable around. https://www.sirim-qas.com.my/forgery-on-license-no-pc000218/

For water heater (WH) regulation compliant is to use 4mm² if want up to code with a 10mA RCD for each WH circuit. Many will skimp at 2.5mm² also can lah but its a close one eye installation.
*
Thank you for the info

SUSceo684
post Sep 8 2021, 08:15 PM

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QUOTE(Wanie404. @ Sep 8 2021, 06:39 PM)
Thank you for the info
*
Most welcome

For the in wall wiring, this one may involve total hse wiring replacement if its super old. And maybe DB box refresh as well depending on condition.
Hence recommend getting a PW1+ wireman or wirewoman to evaluate since without seeing the site we can only give general advice.


General use (13A sockets, aircon up to 2.5hp) 2.5mm² cable will be perfect. Water heater in 3kW class also can lah.
https://s.lazada.com.my/s.WdhwP or
https://s.lazada.com.my/s.Wd4Gq
in 100m rolls, u will nèed red green black 3 colour ya.

Only and specifically for LIGHTING and CEILING FAN no other purpose use 1.5mm²
https://s.lazada.com.my/s.WdSap
in 100m rolls, u will nèed red green black 3 colour ya.
This 1.5mm² only for low loads i.e light circuit, cannot use for 13A sockets

There are also seller for loose cuts but if you need to rewire a few points the 100m rolls are more economical. If plan to DIY must off everything at the DB box. Call a wireman if unsure.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Sep 8 2021, 08:18 PM
TSWanie404.
post Sep 8 2021, 09:32 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Sep 8 2021, 08:15 PM)
Most welcome

For the in wall wiring, this one may involve total hse wiring replacement if its super old. And maybe DB box refresh as well depending on condition.
Hence recommend getting a PW1+ wireman or wirewoman to evaluate since without seeing the site we can only give general advice.


General use (13A sockets, aircon up to 2.5hp) 2.5mm² cable will be perfect. Water heater in 3kW class also can lah.
https://s.lazada.com.my/s.WdhwP or
https://s.lazada.com.my/s.Wd4Gq
in 100m rolls, u will nèed red green black 3 colour ya.

Only and specifically for LIGHTING and CEILING FAN no other purpose use 1.5mm²
https://s.lazada.com.my/s.WdSap
in 100m rolls, u will nèed red green black 3 colour ya.
This 1.5mm² only for low loads i.e  light circuit, cannot use for 13A sockets

There are also seller for loose cuts but if you need to rewire a few points the 100m rolls are more economical. If plan to DIY must off everything at the DB box. Call a wireman if unsure.
*
One more thing to ask you

Just wondering.. how much i need in length to replace all the old wire of a house then? Say 5 room house e.g

This post has been edited by Wanie404.: Sep 8 2021, 09:33 PM
SUSceo684
post Sep 9 2021, 01:01 AM

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QUOTE(Wanie404. @ Sep 8 2021, 09:32 PM)
One more thing to ask you

Just wondering.. how much i need in length to replace all the old wire of a house then? Say 5 room house e.g
*
Really depend on site layout but at minimum estimate 1.4x the length of walking footpath if direct wiring.. if need to snake around beams add bit more.. and depends on how many circuit. This is a major job if you're talking whole house rewiring.
stormer.lyn
post Sep 9 2021, 10:59 PM

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QUOTE(Wanie404. @ Sep 8 2021, 09:32 PM)
One more thing to ask you

Just wondering.. how much i need in length to replace all the old wire of a house then? Say 5 room house e.g
*
If you want to do the work yourself, then I suggest you buy the wires by the roll, and not try to buy the exact length of cables you need. If there is extra cable, then just accept it as a loss and sell the extra to electricians, or to recycle centre.

You don't have to buy all the cables at once; buy 14 rolls*, use, and continue buying as you run out. It just means you have to make more trips to the shop/Sh.pee/Laz.da, but your excess wires will be minimum at the end.

You can try and estimate if you can save money as compared to hiring an electrician. NOTE : This is not a price quote.
First socket point = RM 150
Loop additional socket point from the first one = RM 100
First light point = RM 100
Loop additional lighting point from the first point = RM 70
Fan point = RM 100
Water heater point = RM 300
Air cond point = RM 200
Door bell point = RM 200
Auto gate = RM 450
Change DB = RM 1500
Take into account what your time is worth, and if you have the skills, manpower, and equipment, to take on this job yourself, and decide if it is worth it to you.

* 1.5 mm² = 1 x red, 1 x yellow, 1 x blue, 2 x black, 2 x green = 7 rolls. Add the same colours for 2.5 mm² wire for a total of 14 rolls

This post has been edited by stormer.lyn: Sep 9 2021, 11:01 PM
Selene Yeo
post Sep 12 2021, 07:07 PM

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Also, I think most of the old houses in Malaysia uses 3-pin plugs in the bathroom to power up instant water heater. It is very dangerous and definitely against Suruhanjaya Tenaga guidelines, but sadly many installers, contractors, and even developers are doing that.

If your house is currently using it, I suggest u to replace it with a water heater connector. I think ceo684 share this CENTON Water Heater Connector from Shopee before (https://shopee.com.my/CENTON-Water-Heater-C...2717?position=1), I am currently using it too. Just remove the 3-pin plug point and use back the same junction box to install this CENTON Water Heater Connector.

Benefits using this connector are:
1. Splash-Proof - prevent u from getting electrocution
2. Comes with 4mm diameter Fajar cable (easily the best cable brand in Malaysia, according to my installer)
3. Has Line Fault Indicator function, which tells u when your house wiring earthing is faulty (which can kill u)

Green - wiring ok
user posted image

Red - Live and neutral installed terbalik
user posted image

Red - Faulty earthing
user posted image

Looks like this on the wall
user posted image

This post has been edited by Selene Yeo: Sep 12 2021, 09:32 PM
Minolta
post Sep 12 2021, 08:55 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Sep 8 2021, 04:20 AM)
Stiff cable (inside wall conduit): Mega Kabel or Caramay cables. A lot of fake or undersized cable these days.

Extension cable (flexicord) use Fajar Cable 2.5mm² (as thick as index finger) will be as good as the cables inside the wall.

Proper cable sizing for the load is important.
Loose connections cause fire.
Cables without mfg spec "nametag" on it are suspicious.. and cheap. If the cable cut corner it is in their interest that they can just wash hands, if it melted and catch fire..do you see the mfg name on it? No right? whistling.gif so kenot sue anyone.

Many ways to cut corner. But many people only see which contractor give absolute rock bottom pricing. Same as car respray.. the normal priced proper job last 10 yrs.. it is also possible to request elcheapo job just to sell the car that only last 13 months before peeling laugh.gif

Another aspect to consider, esp in older homes pls change all those old magnetic choke fire risk flourescent tube to chokeless LED casing and LED tube. This is pretty cheap and eliminate a lot of potential fire hazard due to choke insulation degraded from heat/old age..if that hot plastic melt and drip down it is hot and can start a fire when drip on carpet or other stuff.
*
I see Lazada also has brands like Million or Arus Jaya. With Sirim stickers, made in malaysia. Cheaper than Mega. Want to ask if these are ok?
Mega wires now are so expensive.
SUSceo684
post Sep 13 2021, 04:08 AM

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QUOTE(Minolta @ Sep 12 2021, 08:55 PM)
I see Lazada also has brands like Million or Arus Jaya. With Sirim stickers, made in malaysia. Cheaper than Mega. Want to ask if these are ok?
Mega wires now are so expensive.
*
Arus/Arus Jaya i cant find any certification listing under those two brand name.

Million cable by Celebrate Cable SB can find certification listing under lic no. PC001541

https://www.malaysiancertified.com.my/detail.aspx treasury listing

PRODUCT CERTIFICATION
License No. : PC001541
License Status : Certified
Company Name CELEBRATE CABLE SDN. BHD.
Product PVC-INSULATED CABLES (NON-SHEATHED) FOR FIXED WIRING
Brand Million
Model PVC-INSULATED, NON-SHEATHED, GENERAL PURPOSE CABLE, RIGID COPPER CONDUCTOR
Type MS IV 01
Rating 450/750V
Size SINGLE CORE (1.5, 2.5, 4, 6, 10, 16, 25) mm²
Remark
Expiry Date 16/01/2022

This post has been edited by ceo684: Sep 13 2021, 04:10 AM
nihility
post Sep 24 2021, 02:26 PM

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QUOTE(Wanie404. @ Sep 8 2021, 03:33 AM)
My neighbour house almost on fire last time due to wire melt while using some appliances , i think microwave.

Since this is very old house on taman area.. very long time ago
Wiring also start aging too

Guys, can suggest what wire to use that good handling appliances like aircond, hair dryer, washing machine, water heater etc

I want to adviced those nice folks on this wiring issue.. but i no idea to say

Plz help
*
Highly likely it is due to the over current. The normal 13A plug point may not be suitabe for the microwave. If the microwave is rated at 15A or 20A but the appliances was plugged into 13A SSO, it will coz the trouble.

For the wiring, as long as the product have the Sirim certificate, it should be safe for usage. On the wiring size selection, better get the advice from the certified wireman. Cable size selection to be selected according to the rated MCB rating.
SUSceo684
post Sep 25 2021, 01:36 AM

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QUOTE(nihility @ Sep 24 2021, 02:26 PM)
Highly likely it is due to the over current. The normal 13A plug point may not be suitabe for the microwave. If the microwave is rated at 15A or 20A but the appliances was plugged into 13A SSO, it will coz the trouble.

For the wiring, as long as the product have the Sirim certificate, it should be safe for usage. On the wiring size selection, better get the advice from the certified wireman. Cable size selection to be selected according to the rated MCB rating.
*
Also DB box component like RCD, MCB can fail over time so for those >30 years already time to change lah. If planned right, medium (28 way) full DB box incl metal box should be 500-600 parts costing with ABB stuff. Hager also good but their RCD mahal sikit, so I usually do ABB.
nihility
post Sep 25 2021, 07:10 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Sep 25 2021, 01:36 AM)
Also DB box component like RCD, MCB can fail over time so for those >30 years already time to change lah. If planned right, medium (28 way) full DB box incl metal box should be 500-600 parts costing with ABB stuff. Hager also good but their RCD mahal sikit, so I usually do ABB.
*
Only the electrical engineer will appreciates thing like ABB & Hager. For the normal consumer, the product price will takes the highest precedence as long as it is common in the market.
nihility
post Sep 25 2021, 07:17 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Sep 9 2021, 10:59 PM)
If you want to do the work yourself, then I suggest you buy the wires by the roll, and not try to buy the exact length of cables you need. If there is extra cable, then just accept it as a loss and sell the extra to electricians, or to recycle centre.

You don't have to buy all the cables at once; buy 14 rolls*, use, and continue buying as you run out. It just means you have to make more trips to the shop/Sh.pee/Laz.da, but your excess wires will be minimum at the end.

You can try and estimate if you can save money as compared to hiring an electrician. NOTE : This is not a price quote.
First socket point = RM 150
Loop additional socket point from the first one = RM 100
First light point = RM 100
Loop additional lighting point from the first point = RM 70
Fan point = RM 100
Water heater point = RM 300
Air cond point = RM 200
Door bell point = RM 200
Auto gate = RM 450
Change DB = RM 1500
Take into account what your time is worth, and if you have the skills, manpower, and equipment, to take on this job yourself, and decide if it is worth it to you.

* 1.5 mm² = 1 x red, 1 x yellow, 1 x blue, 2 x black, 2 x green = 7 rolls. Add the same colours for 2.5 mm² wire for a total of 14 rolls
*
These rate, almost can fight with JKR's published rate already but JKR's specification is very stringent, I doubt normal housing will use such specification, in other word, it looked pricey to me.
stormer.lyn
post Sep 25 2021, 08:43 AM

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QUOTE(nihility @ Sep 25 2021, 07:10 AM)
Only the electrical engineer will appreciates thing like ABB & Hager. For the normal consumer, the product price will takes the highest precedence as long as it is common in the market.
As I have always said, the low-class customer always looks at price first. Even the "YouTube famous" Malaysian solar installer says the same, and gives pointers on how to spot them.

QUOTE(nihility @ Sep 25 2021, 07:17 AM)
These rate, almost can fight with JKR's published rate already but JKR's specification is very stringent,
What makes you think a qualified, competent electrician won't be using proper materials and proper installation procedures to complete their contract?

QUOTE
I doubt normal housing will use such specification, in other word, it looked pricey to me.
*
That is the flaw in your conclusion. You are confusing your opinion on being a cheapskate with reality. Quality customers actually look at quality-of-job first, price second. Even if funds are short, they will try to stretch, because quality, both for materials and installation, is worth paying for in the long run.

But anyway, it is a free market, and you are free to think the "bawah pokok electrician" is great, if that is what fulfills your needs.
nihility
post Sep 25 2021, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Sep 25 2021, 08:43 AM)
As I have always said, the low-class customer always looks at price first. Even the "YouTube famous" Malaysian solar installer says the same, and gives pointers on how to spot them.

What makes you think a qualified, competent electrician won't be using proper materials and proper installation procedures to complete their contract?

That is the flaw in your conclusion. You are confusing your opinion on being a cheapskate with reality. Quality customers actually look at quality-of-job first, price second. Even if funds are short, they will try to stretch, because quality, both for materials and installation, is worth paying for in the long run.

But anyway, it is a free market, and you are free to think the "bawah pokok electrician" is great, if that is what fulfills your needs.
*
There are just too many this kind of consumers.

JKR's specification slightly different, they specified G.I conduit / accesories , whereas in normal private sector, the conduit used will be high impact UPVC. This difference alone will make a significant different to the cost. Both G.I or high impact UPVC are proper materials, only the cost will be difference. Perhaps the price of material really increases so much already at present time from last year to this year alone, otherwise I really still cannot digest the cost.

Kawan, most of the time in the market, the competent electrician "loan" out their license, the one who carry out the work will maximise the profit coz the license not their , $$ is their primary objective.

Hahaha, I really hope I'll be wrong on the perception on the consumers behavior, like I stated, only the person with the knowledge of this field will appreciate quality jobs & willing to pay the fair price for it. Those who are not, most of the time they cannot accept it.

This post has been edited by nihility: Sep 25 2021, 02:28 PM
SUSceo684
post Sep 25 2021, 02:50 PM

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QUOTE(nihility @ Sep 25 2021, 02:27 PM)
There are just too many this kind of consumers.

JKR's specification slightly different, they specified G.I conduit / accesories , whereas in normal private sector, the conduit used will be high impact UPVC. This difference alone will make a significant different to the cost. Both G.I or high impact UPVC are proper materials, only the cost will be difference. Perhaps the price of material really increases so much already at present time from last year to this year alone, otherwise I really still cannot digest the cost.

Kawan, most of the time in the market, the competent electrician "loan" out their license, the one who carry out the work will maximise the profit coz the license not their , $$ is their primary objective.

Hahaha, I really hope I'll be wrong on the perception on the consumers behavior, like I stated, only the person with the knowledge of this field will appreciate quality jobs & willing to pay the fair price for it. Those who are not, most of the time they cannot accept it.
*
Actually conduit price even GI not too much of a cost lah. The main problem is low class consumer demand old pricing which is simply unattainable if you use good (properly sized cable); ie proper stuff like mega kabel/caramay/tonn/Fajar. There are fake cables sold as 2.5mm but no MS certification and priced below 1.5mm pricing laugh.gif
stormer.lyn
post Sep 25 2021, 03:52 PM

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QUOTE(nihility @ Sep 25 2021, 02:27 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
Again, you are presenting your opinion as reality.

Perhaps you need to read and understand the thread. TS asked for guidance, I gave some pricing for proper specced works, with proper specced materials, from a proper qualified installer. Why on earth would I give prices for shoddy work with inferior materials from a "bawah pokok electrician"? That's not what I am familiar with.

You think those prices are too high, well, it's because you are a cheapskate, or you just don't care. My experience is opposite yours, as I have worked with a lot of people who are willing to spend money for good quality done right.

All this talk about JKR, license renting, etc, etc is absolutely not pertinent to what TS asked in the beginning. Again, read and understand the thread.
ahpaul82
post Dec 1 2021, 12:04 AM

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Sorry to ask,
I noticed the ID quote me this :
Supply labour and material to install Power Point.
- 3 x 2.5mm thks. 2nd Grade Caramay Brand wire core.


Cable wiring got first or second grade difference??
Why jss second grade but not first grade?
LOL
SUSceo684
post Dec 1 2021, 04:09 AM

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QUOTE(ahpaul82 @ Dec 1 2021, 12:04 AM)
Sorry to ask,
I noticed the ID quote me this :
Supply labour and material to install Power Point.
- 3 x 2.5mm thks. 2nd Grade Caramay Brand wire core.


Cable wiring got first or second grade difference?? 
Why jss second grade but not first grade?
LOL
*
Actual Caramay comes with embossed marking on it.
As long as certified to MS2112-3:2009 printed on it its ok. Maybe u shud ask the ID put in the MS spec in the quote in writing.
They just not a cartel member of MCMA unlike more famous brands, but we've been using them all along no issue. So maybe that's why labelled as 2nd grade tongue.gif FYI Mega Kabel also cert to same MS standard. Basically a pass is a pass, like SPM/STPM, the school you went to does not matter.

Fake cables with no proper MS2112-3 certification sold at half price aren't pure copper. Those are dangerous.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Dec 1 2021, 04:19 AM
stormer.lyn
post Dec 1 2021, 08:27 AM

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QUOTE(ahpaul82 @ Dec 1 2021, 12:04 AM)
Sorry to ask,
I noticed the ID quote me this :
Supply labour and material to install Power Point.
- 3 x 2.5mm thks. 2nd Grade Caramay Brand wire core.


Cable wiring got first or second grade difference?? 
Why jss second grade but not first grade?
LOL
*
Disclaimer : this is still my guess for now because I haven't confirmed yet if this is the reason.
From this JKR list, I cannot see Caramay listed. Maybe that is why it is considered 2nd grade.
https://jmal.jkr.gov.my/emalv3/index.php?r=...ma&id=EE0110011
ceo684 has kindly dug and found out that Caramay is SIRIM certified to MS2112-3 in a previous post of hers.

The other, really bad reason, is that there could be counterfeit Caramay cables in the market, which they refer to as 2nd grade. Like how you buy car parts and the shop tells you "this one original OEM". But this is pure speculation on my part, so treat it as such.

Just as a point of interest, I have attached the list of JKR approved MCBs, and you can see that ABB is not listed. Does that make it 2nd grade? hmm.gif
user posted image


Edit : OOPS! I just rechecked on the SIRIM website, cross reference with the brand "Caramay", and the license number "PA057101", and it seems the certificate is suspended. Means they did have it, but don't have certification now. I can't tell if they are suspended because of administrative reasons (let's say they have to renew 6 months before, like your passport) or if it is because of actually failing certification, or for any other reasons like the company name has changed.
user posted image

This post has been edited by stormer.lyn: Dec 1 2021, 09:14 AM
ahpaul82
post Dec 1 2021, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Dec 1 2021, 04:09 AM)
Actual Caramay comes with embossed marking on it.
As long as certified to MS2112-3:2009 printed on it its ok. Maybe u shud ask the ID put in the MS spec in the quote in writing.
They just not a cartel member of MCMA unlike more famous brands, but we've been using them all along no issue. So maybe that's why labelled as 2nd grade tongue.gif FYI Mega Kabel also cert to same MS standard. Basically a pass is a pass, like SPM/STPM, the school you went to does not matter.

Fake cables with no proper MS2112-3 certification sold at half price aren't pure copper. Those are dangerous.
*
thanks boss for such details explained,

Wonder should I request change the brand to Mega Kabel or not since the wiring will be concealed..

I think requesting insert MS Spec (Certified to MS2112-3:2009) in the quote of writing is make more sense.. haha.

Understand the copper material increased tremendously... sweat.gif




QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Dec 1 2021, 08:27 AM)
Disclaimer : this is still my guess for now because I haven't confirmed yet if this is the reason.
From this JKR list, I cannot see Caramay listed. Maybe that is why it is considered 2nd grade.
https://jmal.jkr.gov.my/emalv3/index.php?r=...ma&id=EE0110011
ceo684 has kindly dug and found out that Caramay is SIRIM certified to MS2112-3 in a previous post of hers.

The other, really bad reason, is that there could be counterfeit Caramay cables in the market, which they refer to as 2nd grade. Like how you buy car parts and the shop tells you "this one original OEM". But this is pure speculation on my part, so treat it as such.

Just as a point of interest, I have attached the list of JKR approved MCBs, and you can see that ABB is not listed. Does that make it 2nd grade?  hmm.gif
user posted image
Edit : OOPS! I just rechecked on the SIRIM website, cross reference with the brand "Caramay", and the license number "PA057101", and it seems the certificate is suspended. Means they did have it, but don't have certification now. I can't tell if they are suspended because of administrative reasons (let's say they have to renew 6 months before, like your passport) or if it is because of actually failing certification, or for any other reasons like the company name has changed.
user posted image
*
WoW
Good Finding Info Too

Yes, I also same thought as you,
2nd grade = OEM sweat.gif
SUSceo684
post Dec 2 2021, 01:06 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Dec 1 2021, 08:27 AM)
Disclaimer : this is still my guess for now because I haven't confirmed yet if this is the reason.
From this JKR list, I cannot see Caramay listed. Maybe that is why it is considered 2nd grade.
https://jmal.jkr.gov.my/emalv3/index.php?r=...ma&id=EE0110011
ceo684 has kindly dug and found out that Caramay is SIRIM certified to MS2112-3 in a previous post of hers.

The other, really bad reason, is that there could be counterfeit Caramay cables in the market, which they refer to as 2nd grade. Like how you buy car parts and the shop tells you "this one original OEM". But this is pure speculation on my part, so treat it as such.

Just as a point of interest, I have attached the list of JKR approved MCBs, and you can see that ABB is not listed. Does that make it 2nd grade?  hmm.gif
user posted image
Edit : OOPS! I just rechecked on the SIRIM website, cross reference with the brand "Caramay", and the license number "PA057101", and it seems the certificate is suspended. Means they did have it, but don't have certification now. I can't tell if they are suspended because of administrative reasons (let's say they have to renew 6 months before, like your passport) or if it is because of actually failing certification, or for any other reasons like the company name has changed.
user posted image
*
Technically for SIRIM certification, minor (non critical) issues [which isn't super critical to the product quality] if suspended, which also includes "didn't pay license renewal fee". tongue.gif
For revoked, that is major issue [ie. serious enough in nature to affect the product quality to the point it no longer meet the standard]

Per https://www.sirim-qas.com.my/wp-content/upl...CS-DOC-01-1.pdf
CODE
A licence may be suspended for a limited period, in either of the following cases:
a) if the surveillance or retest indicate non-conformance with the requirements of such a nature that
immediate revocation is not necessary;
b) if a case of improper use of the license or the Product Certification Mark, e.g. misleading prints or
advertisement is not solved by suitable retractions and appropriate remedial measures by the
licensee;
c) if there has been any other contravention to the Product Certification Agreement, or the applicable
product standard(s);
d) if the licensee fails to comply with the due settlement of his financial obligation;
e) a voluntarily suspension after mutual agreement between SIRIM QAS International due to nonproduction of the certified product for more than 2 years or for other reasons.

Revocation
A licence may be revoked in either of the following cases:
a) if at the end of the suspension period, inadequate measures are taken by the licensee to fulfils
conditions for the lifting of suspension;
b) if during surveillance, it was found that the non-conformance is of a serious nature;
c) if the licensee fails to comply with due settlement of his financial obligation. In the event that the
fees remained unpaid after six (6) months of expiry date of the licence, a recommendation may be
made to revoke the licence.
d) if there has been any other major contravention to the Product Certification Agreement, or the
applicable product standard(s) of such a nature that immediate revocation is necessary;
e) if the product is banned from use by relevant regulatory authorities;
f) if the standard or rules have been changed/amended and the licensee is either unwilling or
unable to comply with the new requirements;
g) if the product is no longer available i.e. there has been no production of the certified product or its
similar product in the past three (3) years;
h) if the licensee goes out of business;
i) if there is consolidation of licences.


QUOTE(ahpaul82 @ Dec 1 2021, 11:09 AM)
thanks boss for such details explained,

Wonder should I request change the brand to Mega Kabel or not since the wiring will be concealed..

I think requesting insert MS Spec (Certified to MS2112-3:2009) in the quote of writing is make more sense.. haha.

Understand the copper material increased tremendously...  sweat.gif 
WoW
Good Finding Info Too

Yes, I also same thought as you,
2nd grade = OEM  sweat.gif
*
Maybe should query the ID on this. Interested to know why biggrin.gif

Yes, most importantly must meet relevant MS standards.
Copper price gone up exponentially this year alone.
If it is a concern, the price difference for 2.5mm² ~RM5/roll at the electrical store between Mega Kabel and Caramay is RM15/100m LNE only; haven't mark up by installer and ID

This post has been edited by ceo684: Dec 2 2021, 01:09 AM
ahpaul82
post Dec 2 2021, 03:13 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Dec 2 2021, 01:06 AM)
Maybe should query the ID on this. Interested to know why biggrin.gif

Yes, most importantly must meet relevant MS standards.
Copper price gone up exponentially this year alone.
If it is a concern, the price difference for 2.5mm² ~RM5/roll at the electrical store between Mega Kabel and Caramay is RM15/100m LNE only; haven't mark up by installer and ID
*
Already drop that ID proposal,

pending another one quote as per what my requirement above nod.gif

what is common price for additional power point?
RM100-200 per point? hmm.gif
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post Dec 2 2021, 04:01 PM

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QUOTE(ahpaul82 @ Dec 2 2021, 03:13 PM)
Already drop that ID proposal,

pending another one quote as per what my requirement above nod.gif

what is common price for additional power point?
RM100-200 per point?   hmm.gif
*
Generally about there for the pricing, 120 or so for non concealed. Concealed need hacking and that's gonna be pricey. If u engage ur own electrician you can spec double sockets in. 2.5mm² can carry 21A max safely (on 20A MCB) so for light load rooms can use std 2.5mm²; WCS if overload MCB just trips. For heavy duty kitchen, living room, double sockets should use 4mm² (32A max) so even if loaded full 13A*2=26A max well within the capabilities of the 4mm² cable.

ST code didnt mention a limitation on how many sockets u can loop on a circuit, it is only specifying the room size and cable size and correct MCB for the cable size. It also means u can theoretically have 100 sockets on 1 circuit with 10W phone charger ie total load 1000W /4A in a tiny room.

https://www.recommend.my/blog/how-much-do-e...st-in-malaysia/ has an OLD reference.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Dec 2 2021, 04:03 PM
lyt25_1234
post Dec 2 2021, 05:36 PM

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Yeah, been hearing alot of cases where fire caused by wrong use of cable size for the kitchen.

I just replaced all concealed wires in my kitchen last year from 2.5mm to 4mm.

ahpaul82
post Dec 3 2021, 01:59 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Dec 2 2021, 04:01 PM)
Generally about there for the pricing, 120 or so for non concealed. Concealed need hacking and that's gonna be pricey. If u engage ur own electrician you can spec double sockets in. 2.5mm² can carry 21A max safely (on 20A MCB) so for light load rooms can use std 2.5mm²; WCS if overload MCB just trips. For heavy duty kitchen, living room, double sockets should use 4mm² (32A max) so even if loaded full 13A*2=26A max well within the capabilities of the 4mm² cable.

ST code didnt mention a limitation on how many sockets u can loop on a circuit, it is only specifying the room size and cable size and correct MCB for the cable size. It also means u can theoretically have 100 sockets on 1 circuit with 10W phone charger ie total load 1000W /4A in a tiny room.

https://www.recommend.my/blog/how-much-do-e...st-in-malaysia/ has an OLD reference.
*
ah, thanks for valuable info !

I need reconsider one of the additional twice gang switched socket outlet in kitchen area whether need use 4mm² cable or not, since I don't think will use both socket simultaneously,

the rest area additional points I guess should be fine with 2.5mm² cable,

coz I saw from as-built Schematic Diagram drawing, aircond, water heater are using 4mm² wiring,

13A/S/S/O are using 2.5mm² and light points & ceiling fans are using 1.5mm².


once again I appreciated your input ! notworthy.gif thumbup.gif

let hope the ID know what they are proposing.. biggrin.gif
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post Dec 3 2021, 02:06 AM

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QUOTE(ahpaul82 @ Dec 3 2021, 01:59 AM)
ah, thanks for valuable info !

I need reconsider one of the additional twice gang switched socket outlet in kitchen area whether need use 4mm² cable or not, since I don't think will use both socket simultaneously,

the rest area additional points I guess should be fine with 2.5mm² cable,

coz I saw from as-built Schematic Diagram drawing, aircond, water heater are using 4mm² wiring,

13A/S/S/O are using 2.5mm² and light points & ceiling fans are using 1.5mm². 
once again I appreciated your input !  notworthy.gif  thumbup.gif

let hope the ID know what they are proposing..  biggrin.gif
*
Sounds correct, WH on 4mm² is most important (16A device for 3kW class heaters).
Aircon for small sizes 1.5hp below is just 7-8A or so.. 2.5mm more than enough. The impt part here for aircond is specify 4 wires (LNE + Signal) between the IDU and the ODU so you can install inverter AC the proper way (instead of cut corners no Earth).
ahpaul82
post Dec 3 2021, 12:32 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Dec 3 2021, 02:06 AM)
Sounds correct, WH on 4mm² is most important (16A device for 3kW class heaters).
Aircon for small sizes 1.5hp below is just 7-8A or so.. 2.5mm more than enough. The impt part here for aircond is specify 4 wires (LNE + Signal) between the IDU and the ODU so you can install inverter AC the proper way (instead of cut corners no Earth).
*
WH is ELTON Storage Water Heater Type,
noticed have a socket plug above bathroom plaster ceiling,
not sure is a 13A or 15A /S/S/O.

Boss, don't type Alien language lah laugh.gif
I don't have electrical engineering background lah rclxub.gif

Attached Image

I don't see any "signal" cable,
do you mean in future I need to re-lay the "signal" cable if I wanna upgrade to Inverter Type of Aircond?
(Currently living hall is 2.0HP Non-Inverter Type)

I more concern whether the existing aircond piping can be re-use or not, since I hearsay Inverter Type Aircond need different type of piping... unsure.gif
SUSceo684
post Dec 4 2021, 04:16 PM

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QUOTE(ahpaul82 @ Dec 3 2021, 12:32 PM)
WH is ELTON Storage Water Heater Type,
noticed have a socket plug above bathroom plaster ceiling,
not sure is a 13A or 15A /S/S/O.

Boss, don't type Alien language lah  laugh.gif
I don't have electrical engineering background lah  rclxub.gif

Attached Image

I don't see any "signal" cable,
do you mean in future I need to re-lay the "signal" cable if I wanna upgrade to Inverter Type of Aircond?
(Currently living hall is 2.0HP Non-Inverter Type)

I more concern whether the existing aircond piping can be re-use or not, since I hearsay Inverter Type Aircond need different type of piping...  unsure.gif
*
Water heater (WH) is its own class of things. Electrically should run direct without socket/plug as this is the biggest power draw item in your house.

---

For the AC wiring.. i did a diagram before at https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5151435/+20&#entry101134447

Most inverter models need 4 wires, 3 for power LNE, and the last one is for the IDU to talk to the ODU.
In normal operation, only L,N and signal are used. The E (earth) is like airbag.
If there is a short, no E = no airbag lor. Because in 3 wire, they already stolen your airbag E to be used as signal cable.


Piping wise..there's commonly the thin pipes 0.61mm and much better 0.71mm. Copper manyak mahal so thats another place to cut corner for elcheapo installation job. Ideally if its 0.71mm thickness (measure w any caliper) then its OK..roughly 200 bucks for all the 1hp/1.5hp pancakes required.. 0.8mm thick one is bestest but price out of this world as local Daikin/Acson dont carry 0.8mm..u need imported JP Inaba Denko in excess of 500 bucks per 20m. Thin pipe 0.61mm or worse, even thinner no name elcheapo pipes are more prone to pinhole leak after some years..ie the few bucks saved may translate to hack and redoing piping.

INV and NON INV pipes are the same.
U can check Daikin spec, 1hp INV use 9.52/6.35 mm. 1hp NON also use the same 9.52/6.35mm. laugh.gif
So a lot of nonsense hearsay the copper piping is different for same size INV vs NON.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Dec 4 2021, 04:20 PM
ahpaul82
post Dec 6 2021, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Dec 4 2021, 04:16 PM)
Water heater (WH) is its own class of things. Electrically should run direct without socket/plug as this is the biggest power draw item in your house.

---

For the AC wiring.. i did a diagram before at https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/5151435/+20&#entry101134447

Most inverter models need 4 wires, 3 for power LNE, and the last one is for the IDU to talk to the ODU.
In normal operation, only L,N and signal are used. The E (earth) is like airbag.
If there is a short, no E = no airbag lor. Because in 3 wire, they already stolen your airbag E to be used as signal cable.


Piping wise..there's commonly the thin pipes 0.61mm and much better 0.71mm. Copper manyak mahal so thats another place to cut corner for elcheapo installation job. Ideally if its 0.71mm thickness (measure w any caliper) then its OK..roughly 200 bucks for all the 1hp/1.5hp pancakes required.. 0.8mm thick one is bestest but price out of this world as local Daikin/Acson dont carry 0.8mm..u need imported JP Inaba Denko in excess of 500 bucks per 20m. Thin pipe 0.61mm or worse, even thinner no name elcheapo pipes are more prone to pinhole leak after some years..ie the few bucks saved may translate to hack and redoing piping.

INV and NON INV pipes are the same.
U can check Daikin spec, 1hp INV use 9.52/6.35 mm. 1hp NON also use the same 9.52/6.35mm. laugh.gif
So a lot of nonsense hearsay the copper piping is different for same size INV vs NON.
*
Regarding the WH,

I guess this should be correct right.. ?

Attached Image


wahh.. so many great info you shared on the aircond !
need bookmark in future when we require to replace the A/C.

is the the 0.61mm / 0.71mm piping thickness measure from Outside Diameter (O.D)?
if yes nanti I go ukur tongue.gif

haha, should go question Daikin why the Non Inverter & Inverter type of aircond using same thickness piping tongue.gif

SUSceo684
post Dec 6 2021, 01:49 PM

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QUOTE(ahpaul82 @ Dec 6 2021, 11:18 AM)
Regarding the WH,

I guess this should be correct right.. ?

Attached Image
wahh.. so many great info you shared on the aircond !
need bookmark in future when we require to replace the A/C.

is the the 0.61mm / 0.71mm piping thickness measure from Outside Diameter (O.D)?
if yes nanti I go ukur tongue.gif

haha, should go question Daikin why the Non Inverter & Inverter type of aircond using same thickness piping tongue.gif
*
0.71 or 0.61mm is the copper thickness.. technically do not measure the air space ya.
PowerGadget
post Dec 13 2021, 01:49 AM

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Sorry for hijacking this thread, I just bought a subsale double storey house(22x85) that is rather old(>30 years old) and thinking of replacing all the wires as well as install neutral wire for each point to be utilised in smart switches.

Looking forward to purchase mega kabel to replace the existing electrical lines. Wondering how to estimate how many cables do I need because I am located in KK Sabah so need to ship these cables from west Malaysia.

Plan to purchase as following

1.5mm² - 100m roll x 6
2.5mm² - 100m roll x 6
4.0mm² - 100m roll x 3
Panduit Ethernet Cable 305m x 3

Anybody got rough estimation on how much can it be done and are those materials sufficient? Going to get a rough idea before seeking for contractor when getting my key.

Thanks everybody in advanced.
stormer.lyn
post Dec 13 2021, 08:41 AM

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QUOTE(PowerGadget @ Dec 13 2021, 01:49 AM)
1.5mm² - 100m roll x 6
..... are those materials sufficient?
I will always start with 7 rolls of cable, 1 of each Red, Yellow and Blue, 2 each Black, 2 each Green. This allows me to pull 2 sets (live, neutral and earth) at one time, to 2 rooms for example.
Also the same 7 rolls for 2.5 mm², but the 4 mm² is fine at 3 rolls. Ultimately I think you will be using at least double of this wires (14 rolls, each size) for your entire house.

In my opinion, the ethernet cable is too much at 3 rolls. Assuming each branch is 100 ft (for 22 x 75 house) one roll is 1000 ft, so one roll can wire up 10 points. Roughly measure where all the points will be, and then you can estimate how much you need.
PowerGadget
post Dec 13 2021, 11:33 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Dec 13 2021, 08:41 AM)
I will always start with 7 rolls of cable, 1 of each Red, Yellow and Blue, 2 each Black, 2 each Green. This allows me to pull 2 sets (live, neutral and earth) at one time, to 2 rooms for example.
Also the same 7 rolls for 2.5 mm², but the 4 mm² is fine at 3 rolls. Ultimately I think you will be using at least double of this wires (14 rolls, each size) for your entire house.

In my opinion, the ethernet cable is too much at 3 rolls. Assuming each branch is 100 ft (for 22 x 75 house) one roll is 1000 ft, so one roll can wire up 10 points. Roughly measure where all the points will be, and then you can estimate how much you need.
*
Thank you so much stormer for your insight.

Will definitely proceed to order 14 rolls of each type wire as it's hassle to source these items in the middle of renovation. Better to be overestimate than underestimate.

Thanks! It's indeed very helpful to have rough estimation of 1 roll can wire up to 10 points. I guess I will be source for two rolls at the moment.

Sorry for bothering you, wondering any other stuffs that I need know before seeking for contractor to do the job?

stormer.lyn
post Dec 13 2021, 05:00 PM

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QUOTE(PowerGadget @ Dec 13 2021, 11:33 AM)
Thanks! It's indeed very helpful to have rough estimation of 1 roll can wire up to 10 points. I guess I will be source for two rolls at the moment.
Please don't misunderstand. 305 m/1000 ft/1 box can easily wire up more than 10 points, not up to 10 points. Depends on the distance of the point from the router/switch. Measure your floor plan, and estimate your distance, to estimate the quantity you need. My 100 ft per point was an example only.
QUOTE
Sorry for bothering you, wondering any other stuffs that I need know before seeking for contractor to do the job?
I can't comment on the contractor themselves, but try to do the following:
1. Don't share neutrals - One line out must have one neutral returning to the DB.
2. Group the wiring areas logically - for eg 1 set 1.5 mm² for lights and fan, 2 sets 2.5 mm² for power, grouped as 1 room.
3. Label the wires - Just use simple cable markers for both the live and neutral.
4. Group the MCBs logically in the DB - Don't let the wireman randomly connect the wires to the MCBs, arrange it logically.
user posted image
5. Get an "as wired" drawing - Can be simple one, just so you know what goes where (just try to remember in 10 years time without this!)
user posted image
6. If you think you need 1 socket in the area, install 2. If you think you need 2, install 3. You can never have enough power sockets.

Actually, if you can use something like SketchUp, you can plan everything from where things need to be, to wire length needed, to location of sockets and lights, to where to hack the walls, etc. But I don't really expect people to want to do this, even thought it will save cost and aggravation during the renovation.
user posted image

Do some planning, think things through, and you should be okay. PM if you need any advice, and I'll try to help. Good luck!


PowerGadget
post Dec 13 2021, 10:54 PM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Dec 13 2021, 05:00 PM)
Please don't misunderstand. 305 m/1000 ft/1 box can easily wire up more than 10 points, not up to 10 points. Depends on the distance of the point from the router/switch. Measure your floor plan, and estimate your distance, to estimate the quantity you need. My 100 ft per point was an example only.
I can't comment on the contractor themselves, but try to do the following:
1. Don't share neutrals - One line out must have one neutral returning to the DB.
2. Group the wiring areas logically - for eg 1 set 1.5 mm² for lights and fan, 2 sets 2.5 mm² for power, grouped as 1 room.
3. Label the wires - Just use simple cable markers for both the live and neutral.
4. Group the MCBs logically in the DB - Don't let the wireman randomly connect the wires to the MCBs, arrange it logically.
user posted image
5. Get an "as wired" drawing - Can be simple one, just so you know what goes where (just try to remember in 10 years time without this!)
user posted image
6. If you think you need 1 socket in the area, install 2. If you think you need 2, install 3. You can never have enough power sockets.

Actually, if you can use something like SketchUp, you can plan everything from where things need to be, to wire length needed, to location of sockets and lights, to where to hack the walls, etc. But I don't really expect people to want to do this, even thought it will save cost and aggravation during the renovation.
user posted image

Do some planning, think things through, and you should be okay. PM if you need any advice, and I'll try to help. Good luck!
*
Got it man, thank you so much for being so humble to share your knowledge that I couldn't get it from somewhere else! notworthy.gif

I'll try to draw out the floor plan either in Sketchup(If managed to learn it within month) or most probably end up with SweetHome 3D or Homestyler.

Will definitely pm you again if I have any question regarding this in the midst of renovation, truly appreciated your kindness towards a stranger! thumbsup.gif



 

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