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 Please help if you have electrical knowledge, regarding 3 phase electric installation

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TShendry91
post Apr 22 2021, 05:35 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Apr 21 2021, 11:37 PM)
Hi,
4200W / 230V = 18.26A
https://www.electrical-installation.org/enw...a_of_conductors
Per reference method B1 (single circuit, solid stranded cable enclosed in conduit) able to handle up to 21A with 2.5mm² cable.

This 21A is assuming that quality cable (eg Mega Kabel, Caramay, or any of the MCMA cartel members) is being used..  biggrin.gif
If elcheapo or fake cables - you might be running a risk that it is undersized for the load devil.gif

Also the length should be kept to reasonable length.. if the cables are too long then voltage drop will be a problem as well
Because if effective voltage drops, the amps go up
e.g. 4200W / 200V = 21A.
So there is about a 10% reserve capacity of the cable current capacity with 2.5mm² cables.. insofar as ST regulations go, officially they recommend minimum of 4mm² so that no need to worry or calculate so deeply.
*
What about this? Is this good enough?
user posted image
SUSceo684
post Apr 22 2021, 11:18 PM

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QUOTE(hendry91 @ Apr 22 2021, 05:35 AM)
What about this? Is this good enough?
user posted image
*
Should be OK, they print their name and spec on the cable, there's an older SIRIM cert issued for MPC cable and it is not in the news for fake SIRIM certs icon_rolleyes.gif
There are cases before - https://www.sirim-qas.com.my/forgery-on-license-no-pc000218/

How to identify a sub-standard cable (per https://www.st.gov.my/en/contents/files/dow...ble_testing.pdf )
1) Check and verify MARKINGS on Cable – shall be as per standard requirement
2) Check and verify APPROVAL / CERTIFICATION Mark/Label
3) Measure conductor resistance ( need to have a proper meter)
4) Measure size(s) • conductor • each strand ( and no of strands)
5) Check and verify copper content • normally by conductor resistance • weight the sample • Sometimes –by weighing the sample, with some experience, we can identify if the samples / weight of sample due to copper content or sheath of insulation

On the other hand w.r.t point no. 4 - there are also complaints on shopee that the cables are not as thick as they claim to be laugh.gif
https://shopee.com.my/MPC-2.5MM²-PVC-CABLE...2276.3417950523


This post has been edited by ceo684: Apr 22 2021, 11:24 PM
TShendry91
post Apr 27 2021, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Apr 22 2021, 11:18 PM)
Should be OK, they print their name and spec on the cable, there's an older SIRIM cert issued for MPC cable and it is not in the news for fake SIRIM certs   icon_rolleyes.gif
There are cases before - https://www.sirim-qas.com.my/forgery-on-license-no-pc000218/

How to identify a sub-standard cable (per https://www.st.gov.my/en/contents/files/dow...ble_testing.pdf )
1) Check and verify MARKINGS on Cable – shall be as per standard requirement
2) Check and verify APPROVAL / CERTIFICATION Mark/Label
3) Measure conductor resistance ( need to have a proper meter)
4)  Measure size(s) • conductor • each strand ( and no of strands)
5) Check and verify copper content • normally by conductor resistance • weight the sample • Sometimes –by weighing the sample, with some experience, we can identify if the samples / weight of sample due to copper content or sheath of insulation

On the other hand w.r.t point no. 4 - there are also complaints on shopee that the cables are not as thick as they claim to be  laugh.gif
https://shopee.com.my/MPC-2.5MM²-PVC-CABLE...2276.3417950523
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Let's say, touch wood, when the cable overheat, will the MCB/RCD trip? I scare it won't trip and cause fire. lol

Actually I did check the cable marking last time, but I found that, when I rub the cable the marking will get erased, is that normal? Will quality cable be erased too?

This post has been edited by hendry91: Apr 27 2021, 01:03 PM
SUSceo684
post Apr 27 2021, 02:22 PM

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QUOTE(hendry91 @ Apr 27 2021, 12:56 PM)
Let's say, touch wood, when the cable overheat, will the MCB/RCD trip? I scare it won't trip and cause fire. lol

Actually I did check the cable marking last time, but I found that, when I rub the cable the marking will get erased, is that normal? Will quality cable be erased too?
*
That really depends on the max current capacity of the cable vs MCB.
For good cable lets say its 2.5mm² max safe load 24A. Meaning when it overload it will get warmer and warmer (it will not instantly kaboom at 26A).
When fitted with C20 MCB, rated 20A.
Mini overload say 21A on C20 maybe take 20min to trip the thermal overload characteristic of MCB.
More overload say 22A on C20 maybe take 6min to trip thermal.
Add more overload say 25A on C20 maybe take 2 min to trip.
More serious overload say 30A on C20 maybe 10 sec to trip thermal.
Times are just pluck from the air.

Its just to illustrate the slow blow characteristic of MCB. It will trip before the cables get insanely hot. As its not a huge overload (that will trip magnetic) all these small overload are thermal trip based, the higher the degree of overload the faster it will trip. MCB close 1 eye for minor overloads, where 20.1A on C20 will also probably take forever to trip. Like overloading a lorry by 20kg..JPJ close one eye lah.

Risk of substandard cable..

What happens in the use of cheapo cables that are underspec, where a small overload like 26A (supposedly safe upto 24A, but cable actually only safe up to 15A) is that even in normal operation it is running warm and if it gets to 26A may be very hot but MCB thinks OK je..but normal timing of slow blow of MCB only work if good cable is used..for substandard cable the cable itself may run a risk of overheating and melting BEFORE the slow blow trips. As we also cannot tell how lousy a substandard cable is (obviously it will proclaim the best) this is a gamble that most of us dont want to take, hence we always spec quality cables, but customers some dont understand and want cheapest possible prices..it is very easy to buy cheap shit junk at half price, that we all know..but this is something we want to sleep peacefully at night.

In event of short circuit aka HUGE overload many tens or hundreds of amp pass thru suddenly, ie way way over 5 to 10 times the 20A C curve rating it will trip the magnetic part of MCB instantly.
If the lorry overloaded at 200% of course cannot close one eye..JPJ kasi saman and impound it!

To digress on the C curve of C20 tongue.gif
MCB B curve instant magnetic trip between 3 to 5 times of rated full load current.meaning (3 to 5x) of 20A for a B20.
MCB C curve instant magnetic trip between 5 to 10 times of rated full load current. Meaning (5 to 10x) of 20A for a C20.

Malaysia is one of the funny places where B curve MCB is not common and C is plentiful. B curve already good enough for home use not to false/nuisance trip because..how many big motor or lathe machine or welding machine does one have AT HOME laugh.gif

In AU..B is commonly used for residential, i think same goes for UK.

https://www.se.com/au/en/faqs/FA290880/

QUOTE
B Curve means the MCB trips between 3-5 times full load current. It is mainly used in residential applications where loads are resistive e.g. lighting fixtures, domestic appliances with low surge Levels.
C Curve means the MCB trips between 5-10 times full load current. It is used  in commercial?industrial applications where there is greater chances of higher short circuit currents e.g. mainly inductive loads , fluorescent lighting.


This post has been edited by ceo684: Apr 27 2021, 02:32 PM
SUSslimey
post Apr 27 2021, 02:38 PM


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QUOTE(hendry91 @ Apr 27 2021, 12:56 PM)
Let's say, touch wood, when the cable overheat, will the MCB/RCD trip? I scare it won't trip and cause fire. lol

Actually I did check the cable marking last time, but I found that, when I rub the cable the marking will get erased, is that normal? Will quality cable be erased too?
*
Rcd does not trip due to heat.
Mcb yes, but must make sure mcb rating lower than cable rating.
The way mcb thermally trip is due to a thermal strip in the mcb that sense it’s own temperature, not the temp of the cable.
SUSceo684
post Apr 27 2021, 02:40 PM

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QUOTE(hendry91 @ Apr 27 2021, 12:56 PM)
Let's say, touch wood, when the cable overheat, will the MCB/RCD trip? I scare it won't trip and cause fire. lol

Actually I did check the cable marking last time, but I found that, when I rub the cable the marking will get erased, is that normal? Will quality cable be erased too?
*
To answer the question..in diff POV
For upto spec cable, yes when fitted w appropriate MCB yes MCB will trip if the cable overloaded. Slow blow or instant trip depending on overload size. But anyhow this will work regardless slow blow or instant trip

For substandard cable..in the reverse scenario..if MCB sized accordingly to actual true max safe capacity of cable lousy spec then will protect as per above case.
QUOTE
Challenge is how do we know the actual true max safe of fake cables


If MCB was sized to untrue claimed spec per the fake labelling (which is normal procedure)..there is such a risk the cable melted before MCB slow blow happens (if the cable is really substandard aka fake shit).

This post has been edited by ceo684: Apr 27 2021, 02:55 PM


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TShendry91
post Apr 29 2021, 09:20 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Apr 27 2021, 02:40 PM)
To answer the question..in diff POV
For upto spec cable, yes when fitted w appropriate MCB yes MCB will trip if the cable overloaded. Slow blow or instant trip depending on overload size. But anyhow this will work regardless slow blow or instant trip

For substandard cable..in the reverse scenario..if MCB sized accordingly to actual true max safe capacity of cable lousy spec then will protect as per above case.
If MCB was sized to untrue claimed spec per the fake labelling (which is normal procedure)..there is such a risk the cable melted before MCB slow blow happens (if the cable is really substandard aka fake shit).
*
Thanks.
I've another issue, I noticed that, when I switch on the light, my Fan Live cable will have minor current, the test pen light up, but not strong. Do you know what might be causing it? That wireman told me earth cable not deep enough, but I don't believe. lol
bobowyc
post Apr 29 2021, 09:33 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Mar 4 2021, 01:45 PM)
Sis actually.  bruce.gif

1. What is the "MCB C20 WH"? is it different type of other MCB?
Standard C20 MCB.
WH denotes the one for WH circuit.

2. if I have 4 header, which mean I will need FOUR 10mA RCD?
Yes correct. WH 10mA RCD is per unit of WH. Each WH should be on its own dedicated circuit as one WH enough to use 15-17A nominal (WH is heavy appliance). Your 2.5mm cable only support 21A. And the 10mA RCD, only come (from branded mfg) up to 25A max current. In short, the standard cable sizing, the RCD current capacity (max 25A) all only suited for single unit WH as it is sensitive device (0.01A /10mA).
Whilst there are champions from china making 10mA RCD that can handle 40A laugh.gif I also dare not use.

3. The purpose of 10mA RCD is to trip when the heater leaking to our body? my current installation if leaking it won't trip?
Your current installation only trips at 300mA - by then, the human dieded 6 times over.
As the mains is 300mA, it allow 300mA leakage before it trip.
A human RIP at 50mA.
[attachmentid=10803044]

4. In short, I only need to have 10mA RCD in between the MCB and Header individually? Any other wiring need to be change/improve?
Yes, correct.
RCD is comparing input and output current difference. Input and output must = equal the same +/- RCD tolerance of say 10mA (0.01A).

Meaning, if WH input is 16A on L, at least 15.99A must return on WH output (N) else it has deemed to be lost somewhere.

Lost somewhere mean could be leaking through human.
So when the return not enough (<15.99) say only 11A return. The 4.99A cannot be lost, it mean it leak. As 4.99A far exceed the 0.01A allowed by 10mA RCD it will immediately trip.

MCB only consider single wire (L) amount of current passing through (short circuit prevention).
For a C20, meaning the speed limit is 20A.
Slight overload at 23A will trip the SLOW thermal overload after say 20 min.
Major overload at 100A will immediately trip the magnetic overload.

5. between I'm quite confusing are ELCB & RCCB the same? can you correct me if the naming in the image below wrong?
The difference is how and where they measure.
ELCB only detect earth current rise >0 leak (L to PE) leak on that appliance's earth. If it leak via anywhere else (L-N, or L-other PE eg wet floor, L-human) it will not bother. Hence in short I just say it protect that appliance only.

RCD because it constantly compare L input =N output + allowed tolerance (like 10.00A in on L, >9.99A must return as allowed tolerance is 0.01A for normal operation things like wire resistance that do NOT constitute a fault condition). It does not care where it leak through, RCD always compare in and out current so if it leak through any method (L-N, L-PE, L-other PE, L-human) it always trip.

Note: There is something called RCBO which do both function of MCB+RCD in one.
6. Appreciate if you can share the image of "MCB C20 WH" and 10mA RCD
MCB C20 is any usual C20 (20A MCB). WH is just designation for the WH circuit.

10mA RCD (must be used in conjunction together with C20 MCB) ie. add this along with MCB C20
ABB= https://www.lazada.com.my/products/abb-f202...i2IABn&search=1
Hager= https://www.lazada.com.my/products/hager-cc...l5n2dU&search=1
Schneider = https://www.lazada.com.my/products/schneide...8t5PsK&search=1

10mA RCBO = RCD+MCB in one package pao kah liao 2 function in one
Schneider RCBO https://www.lazada.com.my/products/schneide...PVCaV4&search=1
The drawback is, officially, their MCB is a C25 equivalent so you need to use with 4mm cable. As 2.5mm cable only good up to 21A rating.

user posted image
First one from left  is MCB 3P (3 pole) C63 (63A)
Second one is 4P RCD but this is 300mA. Only used in commercial/industrial where they use heavy motors. Not safe for residential and its against regulation, as the human has dieded 6x before this trips. (RCD/RCCB/RCCD = same function with diff name like zebra crossing=pedestrian crossing)
Third one is MCB 1P C10 (10A)

You will then ask, why do people still put the 300mA in residential?
Just to save the few bucks for more profit/lower tender cost whistling.gif
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Holy.. I just bought a 3phase rccb and the seller gave me Hager 63A 4 pole 300ma RCCB. Should i tell them i want the smaller amp one? I already installed it in my client house just 2 days ago. -___- Why even the sellers dont know or they dont care? lol.
SUSceo684
post Apr 29 2021, 10:52 AM

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QUOTE(bobowyc @ Apr 29 2021, 09:33 AM)
Holy.. I just bought a 3phase rccb and the seller gave me Hager 63A 4 pole 300ma RCCB. Should i tell them i want the smaller amp one? I already installed it in my client house just 2 days ago. -___- Why even the sellers dont know or they dont care? lol.
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For 4P, 300mA cheap ma coz insensitive.
They sell the 300mA because still valid use for industry.
Not all RCD created equal ohmy.gif

Should use the 30mA then up to par with current residential standard. 4P 30mA 63A usually cost almost double of the 4P 300ma.

Personally I'd still try to swap out to 30mA, safety first.

This post has been edited by ceo684: Apr 29 2021, 10:56 AM
SUSslimey
post Apr 29 2021, 11:06 AM


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QUOTE(hendry91 @ Apr 29 2021, 09:20 AM)
Thanks.
I've another issue, I noticed that, when I switch on the light, my Fan Live cable will have minor current, the test pen light up, but not strong. Do you know what might be causing it? That wireman told me earth cable not deep enough, but I don't believe. lol
*
wires run together in the same trunking.

it can induce a potential in nearby wires.

so there is voltage in them even without the switch is on. but if you test the current by putting the voltage to some or any work the voltage would immediately drop to zero.

pretty much normal and not a concern. nothing to do with earth or neutral
IMF2025
post Apr 29 2021, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Apr 29 2021, 10:52 AM)
For 4P, 300mA cheap ma coz insensitive.
They sell the 300mA because still valid use for industry.
Not all RCD created equal ohmy.gif

Should use the 30mA then up to par with current residential standard. 4P 30mA 63A usually cost almost double of the 4P 300ma.

Personally I'd still try to swap out to 30mA, safety first.
*
Aiyooo my hse too also using 300ma. Looks like these so called certified electriciant don’t know what they are doing.
lawrencesha
post Apr 29 2021, 11:12 AM

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Nice.

This post has been edited by lawrencesha: Apr 29 2021, 03:28 PM
SUSceo684
post Apr 29 2021, 01:15 PM

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QUOTE(IMF2025 @ Apr 29 2021, 11:08 AM)
Aiyooo my hse too also using 300ma. Looks like these  so called certified electriciant don’t know what they are doing.
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Can consider changing to 30mA whole house RCD.
It is actually not expensive for the RCD itself especially if you are on single phase - RCD 30mA 63A 2P - [ABB / Hager within RM130; Schneider within RM110].

Attached Image
Whilst ST regulations say maximum of 100mA whole house and 30mA for 13A sockets.. this entails fitting TWO RCDs moneyflies.gif moneyflies.gif moneyflies.gif
Note the maximum.. it is not "exactly/identical" but "up to" meaning.
Meaning to save cost + fully compliant with the law, a 30mA whole house RCD will protect everything with one single RCD unit.

Actually all these are covered in the ST guidelines but then again from business perspective the end user may not be aware of the risks or just want cheapest solution that lights up so corners will have to be cut somewhere whistling.gif
Attached File  ST_Guidelines_For_Electrical_Wiring_2008_Edition.pdf ( 427.2k ) Number of downloads: 13


QUOTE(lawrencesha @ Apr 29 2021, 11:12 AM)
Your wires looks so thin. What size you buy? I use minimum 2mm. I'm sure you loop the wires.

Looks scary.. like gonna melt at any time...
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According to TS pic above TS is using 2.5mm² cables which should be fine for general sockets.
Also (presumably) looking at the nos. of MCBs in the whole DB box there should be enough individual circuits for the house not to exceed the 20A radial circuit floor area coverage of 20m² - if TS stay in 10 acre built-up home then that will be insufficient lah biggrin.gif

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bobowyc
post Apr 29 2021, 01:26 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Apr 29 2021, 10:52 AM)
For 4P, 300mA cheap ma coz insensitive.
They sell the 300mA because still valid use for industry.
Not all RCD created equal ohmy.gif

Should use the 30mA then up to par with current residential standard. 4P 30mA 63A usually cost almost double of the 4P 300ma.

Personally I'd still try to swap out to 30mA, safety first.
*
Whoa. Double the price? 😱 whoaaa. Expensive oh.. need check with my supplier see how much.
SUSceo684
post Apr 29 2021, 01:49 PM

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QUOTE(bobowyc @ Apr 29 2021, 01:26 PM)
Whoa. Double the price? 😱 whoaaa. Expensive oh.. need check with my supplier see how much.
*
Attached Image

Can get by with 300mA if the building is not a house but a factory/commercial building without 13A sockets laugh.gif
Ultimately still need at least one unit 30mA RCD to comply with mandatory requirements for residential.

Well.. once you go three phase it is one "increased cost factor" price element.. (over single phase)
Low amp (40A) three phase still cheap ..marginal increase from 63A single phase component
once you go higher amp (63A and above) on three phase .. another "increased cost factor" price element
high sensitivity component (w.r.t three phase) another "increased cost factor" price element laugh.gif

Hager
40A 4P the difference is RM127-145-166 between 300-100-30mA - for this case not much price difference, might as well go 30mA full
63A 4P the difference is RM153-199-250 between 300-100-30mA - for this case 60% diff hmm.gif

ABB FH204
40A 4P the difference is RM126-138-138 between 300-100-30mA - for this case not much price difference, might as well go 30mA full
63A 4P the difference is RM138-179-289 between 300-100-30mA - for this case it looks like double lah laugh.gif

This post has been edited by ceo684: Apr 29 2021, 01:51 PM
TShendry91
post Apr 29 2021, 02:47 PM

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QUOTE(slimey @ Apr 29 2021, 11:06 AM)
wires run together in the same trunking.

it can induce a potential in nearby wires.

so there is voltage in them even without the switch is on. but if you test the current by putting the voltage to some or any work the voltage would immediately drop to zero.

pretty much normal and not a concern. nothing to do with earth or neutral
*
Sorry, I don't understand what u said. x faham what's the voltage & current in ur sentence. Haha
But can u tell me, when i switch on the light, the test pen have a very weak light(fan Live cable on the ceiling) is that normal or something wrong with the installation?
lyt25_1234
post Apr 29 2021, 03:12 PM

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Is this smart meter that I can use myTNB app to monitor my house energy usage?

user posted image
SUSceo684
post Apr 29 2021, 04:21 PM

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QUOTE(hendry91 @ Apr 29 2021, 02:47 PM)
Sorry, I don't understand what u said. x faham what's the voltage & current in ur sentence. Haha
But can u tell me, when i switch on the light, the test pen have a very weak light(fan Live cable on the ceiling) is that normal or something wrong with the installation?
*
INDUCTIVE COUPLING
It is very normal (inductive coupling/voltage by inductance) as all the cables are run straight and in parallel over long distances (several meters) in close proximity (all stuffed into same conduit).
https://www.smar.com/en/technical-article/i...l-installations

WHY YOUR VOLTAGE INDICATOR LIGHTS UP ON NEARBY CABLES
Coz when the light cable is energised it will also have inductive coupling effect on nearby cables (ie fan cable).
The same effect also happens if you run the fan and test on the light cable.

This is partly why nobody install LAN cable in the same conduit next to power cables as the power cables will disturb the data transmission in unshielded UTP LAN cable.

INDUCTIVE COUPLING EFFECT USED IN NCV (Non Contact Voltage) DETECTION
The 230V AC voltage can be detected in non-contact voltage tester (as you can see even 8cm airgap here, the NCV detector lighted up)
Attached Image

QUOTE(lyt25_1234 @ Apr 29 2021, 03:12 PM)
Is this smart meter that I can use myTNB app to monitor my house energy usage?

user posted image
*
Its made by Smart meter company laugh.gif
Not sure bout the app, but on mytnb web, click around there will be an Other Resources or similar link for smart meter portal

This post has been edited by ceo684: Apr 29 2021, 05:27 PM
SUSslimey
post Apr 29 2021, 06:00 PM


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QUOTE(hendry91 @ Apr 29 2021, 02:47 PM)
Sorry, I don't understand what u said. x faham what's the voltage & current in ur sentence. Haha
But can u tell me, when i switch on the light, the test pen have a very weak light(fan Live cable on the ceiling) is that normal or something wrong with the installation?
*
normal.
cfc
post May 21 2022, 11:01 PM

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QUOTE(ceo684 @ Mar 12 2021, 12:18 PM)
Yes, correct, RCBO 20A 10ma.
*
dear sifus..

i have 2 DB fuse box in my house (DS) , wiring was done probably 8yrs ago
I remembered the technician did inform me each wall socket plug has no looping and direct to one MCB (not sure how true was his claim though)

but i checked and found out that it is still not following the safety spec mention in here
it is using a 100mA main rcd and all my water heaters are without the 10mA rcd as well

I need to do the following which involve no extra rewiring , please check and let me know if i miss out anything

1. replace each WH mcb with Schneider rcbo 25A 10mA. Should i change it to EPS 20A 10mA (i guess mine also just 2.5mm, i have no way to find out now)
Each WH heater wall switch is a single 20A neon light panel.
https://shopee.com.my/-EZ9D16625-Schneider-...0a-3491ef9d4a1d

2. replace the both rcd 100mA with the abb FH202 / Hager 63A 30mA , should i replace main DB 63A too (black color beside rcd), what would be the model i need to get if needed
https://shopee.com.my/ABB-FH202-63A-2P-30mA...78-cde7900452a8
https://shopee.com.my/hager-25A-40A-63A-2P-...8f-8c6a72adb7e9

DC box photo - 1st floor RCD same as below but MCB just have single tier
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


thanks for the advice

This post has been edited by cfc: May 21 2022, 11:10 PM

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