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 Here's why X50 3-cylinder engine is better than 4

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steady bro
post Nov 15 2020, 03:50 PM

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if really so good all manufacturers also use 3 cyl ledi la, still use 4 cyl for what?
steady bro
post Nov 15 2020, 03:58 PM

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QUOTE(freeman1 @ Nov 15 2020, 03:54 PM)
Answer from Geely-Volvo Engine Boss:

The Proton X50’s 1.5-litre turbocharged engines (MPI and TGDi) are not the only 3-cylinder engines on the market. The all-new 2020 Nissan Almera also uses a 3-cylinder.

Going further up the hierarchy, BMW and MINI also use 3-cylinder engines in many of their models. The Toyota GR Yaris, which is developed with inputs from world rally champion Tommi Makkinen, also uses a 3-cylinder engine, and it costs more than a FK8 Honda Civic Type R!

So why are companies backpedalling their earlier message to customers that they should pay more for a bigger engine?

Someone a lot smarter than me once told me this, “When learning something new, you learn by following the rules, because it’s safer and easier. Then you work to master the craft, but somewhere down the line, you will reach the limit of current understanding because what you are trying to achieve is no longer normal. Moving beyond that normal limit requires you to unlearn, and even break the rules.”

Science didn’t progress for more than 1,700 years because Aristotle’s philosophies was thought to be universal truth, until Galileo introduced quantitative, methodical methods to science.

Isaac Newton had to throw out Aristotelian worldview to properly explain the laws of motion. But classical Newtonian laws had to be smashed before Neils Bohr could understand movements in the invisible world of atoms, and after that, Planck, Einstein, and Schrödinger had to throw out the very foundation of 19th century science before mankind could understand the uncertain world of quantum physics.

For automotive engineers like Dr. Sandquist, they are facing a similar need to throw out conventional understanding before they can move forward. The car industry is now in a once in a 100 years revolution...
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then lets wait and see how it performs, adventurous ppl can buy those cars and be the lab rats biggrin.gif
steady bro
post Nov 15 2020, 04:30 PM

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QUOTE(biggie @ Nov 15 2020, 04:24 PM)
As outlined in the article 3 pot engine can match the performance of 4 pot engine. Problem is the vibration as it is not even. The complex damping mechanism outlined will give problem if not maintained properly due to wear and tear.

Ev car is definite for  the future, problem is to store electricity is still problematic and have yet to match the cost of storing fossil fuels (for similar capacity).

In fact if human can figure out how to store electricity and water efficiently (as how fossil fuel is stored) then many of world problem now is solved.
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this, and to solve the vibration problem, the manufacturer need to add a few workarounds to the engine to smoothen up the vibration such as adding more mounts, dampers etc, these will increase the maintenance costs as these are wear and tear parts and needs to be changed after some time

so is it worth it to get a 3 cyl engine car? u get the same performance, comfort etc as a 4 cyl but with added maintenance costs and complexity
steady bro
post Nov 15 2020, 05:32 PM

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QUOTE(dadurtyz @ Nov 15 2020, 05:30 PM)
Yes, thats why when axia, kenari, kancil, no one give a damn about 3pot. Because mindset toyoita>all

When geely bring 3pot, so funny got even put mineral water on top of the engine to test the vibrations 😂😂😂😂
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axia kenari kancil all those still fine using 3 pot cos their engine displacement and power output low, hence vibration also lower

but for a bigger engine and power output high and have turbo, the vibration will be much stronger
steady bro
post Nov 15 2020, 05:45 PM

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QUOTE(dadurtyz @ Nov 15 2020, 05:39 PM)
Sure or not vibrations low? U drive axia kenari and compare with modern 3pot. Then u talk.
Power output with vibration is nothing to do with.
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i mean for a smaller displacement and output 3 pot engine, you dont need the same damping/mounts etc as a bigger displacement 3 pot engine because if you compare the vibration definitely the smaller engine the vibration will be much weaker than the bigger displacement engine, of course there will still be vibration but just not as strong

so those smaller cars can use smaller displacement 3 pot engines and the vibration is still not so severe as a 1.5L turbo 3 potter
steady bro
post Nov 15 2020, 10:32 PM

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QUOTE(biggie @ Nov 15 2020, 10:15 PM)
From the mfr point of view yes it is worth it. Moreover due to the extra maintenance consumer will change car more often.
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yup it benefit them not the consumers icon_idea.gif
steady bro
post Nov 15 2020, 11:26 PM

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QUOTE(dares @ Nov 15 2020, 10:41 PM)
Good god the sohai logic being peddled here.....

if 3 cylinder better why not 2 cylinder or 1 cylinder?
because 3-cylinder is the minimum? If manufacturers can make 2 cylinder engines without them vibrating out of the car, they will most definitely do so. In fact the new breed of Ford ecoboost 3-cylinder engine have cylinder deactivation technology, so the engine only runs on 2 cylinders when cruising.

3 cylinder less reliable
Malaysians have been driving 3-cylinder cars for donkey years and praise that brand to be super reliable. Why suddenly now 3-cylinder = unreliable.

Turbo is for expensive cars that owners don't care about fuel economy
Obviously, those small turbo made for economy cars are not the same as big turbos/twinturbos/biturbos/quadturbos you find on luxury cars.

All those additional engine parts to reduce vibration will be expensive to replace
Except for the timing belt, the other parts are not wear and tear parts and are designed to last the lifetime of the engine. Those old 3-cylinder that vibrate like washing machine, how often do you replace the flywheel?
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so engine mounts dont need to change? engine vibrate more u need stronger engine mounts to withstand the vibration right? tell me which car dont need to change engine mounts after 6-7 years, i want to buy a car that the engine mount last a lifetime also

This post has been edited by steady bro: Nov 15 2020, 11:26 PM
steady bro
post Nov 16 2020, 12:30 AM

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QUOTE(dares @ Nov 16 2020, 12:12 AM)
I was referring to this paragraph in the article
Engine mountings are not mentioned, but they are obviously wear and tear parts in any engine.

If say you wanna argue that modern 3-cylinder engine mountings die faster than 4 cylinders, that is debatable too.
Engine internal parts are not regular wear and tear parts. Which 3-cylinder engine you know needs to have internals replaced every 5 years?

And where did you pick that 5 years figure from?
My point is as long as it is fit for it's designated function then it doesn't matter the size nor number of cylinders. RM40k car have 4 wheels so do you expect a RM80k car has 8 wheels?
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and another person mentioned about dampers and balancing shaft too, dampers are wear and tear too, together wif engine mounts, these will wear out faster if the engine vibrates stronger

and u mentioned that engine mount wear on 3 cyl engine is debatable, but basic science logic, if something vibrates stronger, it will require more damping force to smooth out the vibration and thus will reduce the lifespan of the damper

of course there are cases that those conti cars with 3 potters their engine mount still last as long as those cars with 4 cyl, but to achieve that, the materials used in the mounts are stronger and higher grade and customized, this means those mounts will be much more expensive than a standard mount in a 4 cyl engine

the extra costs of replacing the wear n tear parts will be passed on to the consumers

manufacturers are happy cos the engine is cheaper to manufacture and it pass emission tests, but consumers cry when its time to change those wear and tear parts
steady bro
post Nov 16 2020, 01:09 AM

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QUOTE(dares @ Nov 16 2020, 12:44 AM)
I'm not sure in that paragraph what exactly is that dampener, could just be a spring, in which case it would last very long. You could be right too, but none of us in this thread knows, but somehow /ktards know it will not last long and very expensive to replace.

As for the mounting, you could well be correct in some cases as well; On the other hand, the Ford Fiesta engine mounts price between the 4 cylinder NA and 3 cylinder turbocharged, the price is less than RM100 difference and longevity-wise not that much difference too.

Like it or not, many carmakers are moving towards 3-cylinders in a big way, so it makes sense that a lot has been invested in rectifying some of the flaws. If it turns out a 3 cylinder will be more expensive to maintain compared to a 4-cylinder, alot of consumers will be pissed.
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cannot be just a spring, if its a spring only the engine will bounce up and down, should be like a shock absorber to absorb the bounce (similar to car suspension struts)

well u are using a 1L turbo 125hp 175nm car to compare, but a more powerful and bigger engine like the one in x50, 175hp 255nm will produce a much stronger vibration, and hence stronger mounts and other workarounds like dampers, balancing shafts etc is needed compared to a lower output 3 cyl engine

but of course need to confirm with proton first how much is the mounts cos now we all also unsure hahhaha

steady bro
post Nov 16 2020, 01:59 AM

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QUOTE(sakaic @ Nov 16 2020, 01:48 AM)
The bigger the torque + vibration, the more expensive it is going to be. Engine mounts in concept is simple but due to our modern day demands is now very complex to make.

You need it soft enough to absorb vibrations but tough enough to withstand all the torque from the drivetrain. Thats why liquid filled mounts are popular, they absorb the vibrations when not compressed kao kao and react when compressed kao kao. You try newer car use 3rd party new ones can sometimes be worse than your old original mounts.

If you are not the kind that need to be the first for everything, wait and see how the initial batch wear and tear sets in.
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yup totally agreed
steady bro
post Nov 16 2020, 01:05 PM

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QUOTE(dares @ Nov 16 2020, 12:14 PM)
ktards ain't doing any better here either.
The "vibration damper" mentioned in that article is a specific engine part usually built as part of the crank pulley. It is not related to the engine mount. steady bro, just FYI.
Like I asked, which 3 cylinder engine you know need this part replaced after 5 years? or any other engine internal parts referred to in that article?

You guys keep mentioning engine mount, I already addressed it in my post replying to steady bro.

As for vehicle lifetime, you're just taking that "lifetime fluid" as reference and running with it. If manufacturer deem the car's lifetime to be 5 years, why do some markets enjoy 7-10 yrs warranties on their cars? in fact in Malaysia some Ford cars get 7 years warranty on clutch parts and 10 years for the transmission controller. Why bother with such long warranties if they don't think the car can last that long?

https://www.aarp.org/auto/trends-lifestyle/...-cars-last.html
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thanks bro for the detailed info, appreciate it

anyway, most of the 3 cyl engine cars we see today are mostly 2 types

1) lower output 3 cyl engines from the japanese makes, new almera, new city, vios etc, less than 125hp( there is the yaris gr but thats not what most ppl will buy so lets ignore it), these cars are relatively new to the market so its still early to judge their reliability, but these are lower output 3cyl engines, so they dont require the kind of technologies found in a higher output 3 cyl engine

2) higher output 3 cyl engines from the contis, bmw, mini etc with at least 170hp, these cars are out quite long ledi and their 3 cyl engines proven to be reliable and dont have those issues like excessive vibration etc
but lets not forget conti cars have the latest and state of the art technology compared to other makes, more technology means more expensive to maintain, parts are also much more expensive than other makes

and now we have the new proton x50, a high output 3 cyl engine and it performs like a conti 3 cyl engine (little vibration, little noise etc), so is it using conti cars technologies to achieve the same result as a conti 3 cyl?
if yes then the maintenance costs will also be around conti cars level

so for me i will just avoid this kind of car first and see how it goes first, now is still too early to judge , need more ppl to be the lab rats first haha


 

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