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 RCCB for Water Heater

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numbertwo
post Nov 10 2024, 08:46 PM

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Hello all,
Thanks for this very informative thread. This thread wakes me up to check my existing DB box and I found a following list of concerns, could the pros here help to comment ?

1. There are TWO water heaters (no pump) connecting to two individual MCB C32. So both got to be changed to a RCBO C20 0.01A ?

2. An electronic induction cooker that comes with Highlight burner connecting to a MCB C32, is this Ok ? Or oversized ? Unfortunately i don't have the spec anymore.. Assuming it is 3000W-3500W, does it really need a C32 MCB or can it be lower down to MCB C20 ?

3. A Pacific kitchen hood is also connecting to a C32 MCB. Again, should i downgrade to a C20 MCB or even C16 would suffice ?

Btw.. this DB Box config was reconfig'ed when i reno my house 10+ years back, wirings were all new (reroute all from DB to all the points). I have recently changed it to a 3Phase electric and stumbled upon this informative thread, hence the question.

Thanks all.

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numbertwo
post Nov 11 2024, 09:34 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 10 2024, 10:13 PM)
The rating of the MCB is to protect the cables that are connected. So for example a 2.5 mm² cable has a rating of 24 A**, then the MCB should be not be 25 A, but 20 A.

1. Yes, must change to RCBO, or add RCCB with the C32. If wire is 4 mm² can maintain C32, but I would strongly suggest C25. (Maximum 5700 W water heater with C25) If the wire is 2.5 mm², then technically you already cannot use C20 as Suruhanjaya Tenaga say cannot use 2.5 mm² wire for water heater. Realistically the water heater won't be at maximum heat, so you can get away with a C20 RCBO. (My own instant water heater with rain shower and warm enough for me draws ~16 A measured)

2. Again mainly depends on the wire size. You should also look at the rating of the appliance. For 3500 W, then you would have about 16 A at full cooking power. So, going down to a C20 would be safer no matter the wire size.

3. It does sound extremely oversized. Most hoods are less than 1000 W, so a C16/C20 would be fine.

My own unit:
Lighting 1.5 mm² MCB C10
13 A socket 2.5 mm² MCB C16
A/cond 2.5 mm² MCB C16
Water heater 4 mm² MCB C20+RCCB 10 mA -or- RCBO C20 10 mA
Specialty appliance 4 mm² C25 (Oven for example) Edit I have a row of 3 x 13 A sockets at my kitchen counter. I can foresee myself using an air fryer and an induction cooker while boiling water at the same time. Individually they are not more than 1500 W each, but collectively to the looped sockets it is more than C20. Hence the wire feeding these looped sockets are 4 mm²
Note that ST says air conds are to use 4 mm² wires, but I think that is absolutely overkill as a 2 HP a/cond is at maximum 2000 W (~9A). So I don't follow ST rules to the letter. I'm okay to match the MCB to the wire to the power draw of the appliance.

** This rating depends mainly on the heat that is produced when the wire is flowing the rated amperes. This 24 A is the rating at best case, when the heat can dissipate from the cable. Make that situation worse, by burying that cable in the wall, run 3 phase together, run lots of wires together, etc, and that rating will reduce.
*
--- 13 A socket 2.5 mm² MCB C16 ---

This is another question of mine, all the 13A wall 3 pin are connected with MCB C20 in my DB box now. The 3-Phase RCCB is a single RCCB 0.1A coupled with a MCB C64. Your thoughts please ?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by numbertwo: Nov 11 2024, 09:35 AM
numbertwo
post Nov 11 2024, 10:45 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 11 2024, 10:36 AM)
Technically cannot. ST requires a RCCB 30 mA for 13 A sockets. Your DB should have 2 RCCBs, the 30 mA one feeding all the sockets and appliances, and a 100 mA one feeding all the lighting.
-BUT- you could have one RCCB 30 mA feeding everything, as ST specifications say MAXIMUM rating of the RCCB. So using a 30 mA for lighting does not exceed the 100 mA specification.
Actually, ST recommends using 3 x RCCB, one for each phase-neutral pair for residential applications. This is because you may be 3 phase, but you are actually 3 single phase for residential.
*
-- all the 13A wall 3 pin are connected with MCB C20 in my DB box now.

Is it critical to have them all change to C16?
numbertwo
post Nov 11 2024, 10:49 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 11 2024, 10:36 AM)
Technically cannot. ST requires a RCCB 30 mA for 13 A sockets. Your DB should have 2 RCCBs, the 30 mA one feeding all the sockets and appliances, and a 100 mA one feeding all the lighting.
-BUT- you could have one RCCB 30 mA feeding everything, as ST specifications say MAXIMUM rating of the RCCB. So using a 30 mA for lighting does not exceed the 100 mA specification.
Actually, ST recommends using 3 x RCCB, one for each phase-neutral pair for residential applications. This is because you may be 3 phase, but you are actually 3 single phase for residential.
*
yeah, i read the ST diagrams from others thread, 3x RCCB is recommended but it is too late as the 3P upgrade is done. So my priority now is to change the WH MCB to switch to RCBO , then downsize the few C32 to C20 for the time being.
numbertwo
post Nov 11 2024, 04:47 PM

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QUOTE(Zot @ Nov 11 2024, 04:03 PM)
As for ST guideline:
MCB 16A for 1x 13A socket
MCB 20A for 2x 13A socket
MCB 32A for 4x 13A socket
MCB 32A for 6x 13A socket in ring configuration.
*
Thank you. In this case got to keep the current ones as most of them connect to 2x 13A. Thank u.
numbertwo
post Nov 11 2024, 08:19 PM

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Gentlemen, is this the correct spec of the RCBO : Schneider Electric (Easy9 RCBO, 1P+N, 6kA, C Curve 10mA) ?

And for MCB, (Schneider Electric Miniature Circuit Breaker 1P 20A C 6000A 230V) looks right ?


TIA

This post has been edited by numbertwo: Nov 11 2024, 09:26 PM
numbertwo
post Nov 12 2024, 09:55 AM

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QUOTE(YoungMan @ Nov 12 2024, 09:47 AM)
Thank you. Got to plan for my house reno next year. At least I learn some knowledge so not be easily deceive by contractor.
Thank you. That helps in my understanding
*
yeah.. so much to learn from members here.. How I wish this thread started in 2012 instead.
numbertwo
post Nov 22 2024, 05:05 PM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 10 2024, 10:13 PM)
The rating of the MCB is to protect the cables that are connected. So for example a 2.5 mm² cable has a rating of 24 A**, then the MCB should be not be 25 A, but 20 A.

1. Yes, must change to RCBO, or add RCCB with the C32. If wire is 4 mm² can maintain C32, but I would strongly suggest C25. (Maximum 5700 W water heater with C25) If the wire is 2.5 mm², then technically you already cannot use C20 as Suruhanjaya Tenaga say cannot use 2.5 mm² wire for water heater. Realistically the water heater won't be at maximum heat, so you can get away with a C20 RCBO. (My own instant water heater with rain shower and warm enough for me draws ~16 A measured)

2. Again mainly depends on the wire size. You should also look at the rating of the appliance. For 3500 W, then you would have about 16 A at full cooking power. So, going down to a C20 would be safer no matter the wire size.

3. It does sound extremely oversized. Most hoods are less than 1000 W, so a C16/C20 would be fine.

My own unit:
Lighting 1.5 mm² MCB C10
13 A socket 2.5 mm² MCB C16
A/cond 2.5 mm² MCB C16
Water heater 4 mm² MCB C20+RCCB 10 mA -or- RCBO C20 10 mA
Specialty appliance 4 mm² C25 (Oven for example) Edit I have a row of 3 x 13 A sockets at my kitchen counter. I can foresee myself using an air fryer and an induction cooker while boiling water at the same time. Individually they are not more than 1500 W each, but collectively to the looped sockets it is more than C20. Hence the wire feeding these looped sockets are 4 mm²
Note that ST says air conds are to use 4 mm² wires, but I think that is absolutely overkill as a 2 HP a/cond is at maximum 2000 W (~9A). So I don't follow ST rules to the letter. I'm okay to match the MCB to the wire to the power draw of the appliance.

** This rating depends mainly on the heat that is produced when the wire is flowing the rated amperes. This 24 A is the rating at best case, when the heat can dissipate from the cable. Make that situation worse, by burying that cable in the wall, run 3 phase together, run lots of wires together, etc, and that rating will reduce.
*
Thank you again for your suggestion.

#1 Finally managed to get one willing electrician (most don't bother a small job like this, dunno why) who agreed to do this. It was quite a tedious job to replace MCB to RCBO, not as straight-cut as I thought it to be. He had to find the correct neutral and get it hooked up to the RCBO. And he too confirmed the heater wire is 4mm².

#2. He is in the opine that I should keep it the C32. Wire size is acceptable to him - matching the C32 requirement but because I'm not sure the original spec of the induction cooker (one induction, one highlight ceramic) he would recommend me to keep it that way.

#3. Changed to MCB C20.

For all the changes, he took out the wall switch and inspected all the wires in it too just to make sure the wire size is correct.. I guess that's considered a good electrician ? His last recommendation was to change the DB box from plastic to metal type (wouldn't that be dangerous ?) and to split the 3P RCCB from 0.1mA into 2 (0.03mA and 0.1mA).. Will wait for budget then unsure.gif

All good for now.

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