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 RCCB for Water Heater

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Zot
post Apr 20 2021, 08:43 AM

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QUOTE(amco @ Aug 29 2020, 04:32 AM)
Actually, I am using China's plug & socket which is 16A for water heater with tank. That 13A is suitable for AC and tankless water heater.
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Tankless water heater has to continuously heat the water, unlike tank type. The only reason the socket still survive is just because the heater setting was not not full power, perhaps.

Continuous heat on the 3-[in 13A plug will soften the clamping brass in the socket, thus making contact poorer leading to mere heat generated. This is how most fire get started in houses. smile.gif
Zot
post Apr 20 2021, 08:45 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Apr 20 2021, 08:30 AM)
You absolutely cannot use a shared neutral through a RCCB/RCBO.
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I believe if the N is shared before the RCCB, it is still okay. Not between RCCB and device being protected.
Zot
post Nov 11 2024, 03:55 PM

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QUOTE(YoungMan @ Nov 11 2024, 03:45 PM)
How about water heater RCCB 10 mA, install in DB? Actually how to decide between choosing RCCB or RCBO for WH?
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RCCB - Residual Current Circuit Breaker
RCBO - Residual Current Breaker with Overcurrent

RCCB trips when the outgoing current vs return current difference over its rated trip current. However, if there malfunction in appliance is over normal operating current but the outgoing and return current still tally, it will not trip the RCCB. With RCBO, it will trip because overcurrent protection will trip the RCBO. Additional protection.
Zot
post Nov 11 2024, 04:03 PM

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QUOTE(numbertwo @ Nov 11 2024, 10:45 AM)
-- all the 13A wall 3 pin are connected with MCB C20 in my DB box now. 

Is it critical to have them all change to C16?
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As for ST guideline:
MCB 16A for 1x 13A socket
MCB 20A for 2x 13A socket
MCB 32A for 4x 13A socket
MCB 32A for 6x 13A socket in ring configuration.

Zot
post Nov 12 2024, 08:43 AM

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QUOTE(YoungMan @ Nov 11 2024, 07:25 PM)
So if developer/contractor uses mostly 32 A, it is fine as long not more than 6 13A socket and not for high load/kitchen use? Anything else that need to take into consideration for right sizing MCB?
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Note that the 6 sockets are in ring configuration. Just in case you are not sure what it means. The ring wiring is when wires come out from DB and go to sockets in series and return back to DB through another path to form a circle. Therefore, if you cut wire to one of the socket, power will still be available on the rest of sockets. My house wiring is like this. There are two separate rings for ground and upper floors. I have 2x32A MCB in my DB.

Just think you MCB is more on protecting wire in wall. If current is too high, the MCB will trip to protect wire in the wall from getting to hot and melt the insulator, short-circuited and ignite fire. The MCB rating is not rated to provide total power to sockets on the wall. As you can see the 20A MCB is used for 2x13A socket. Two sockets totaled up for 26A but the MCB is only 20A.

Current carrying capability of wire depends not only on its size but ambient temperature and how it is laid also affect current rating. I always assume the 4mm wire should be protected by 20A MCB even though it can carry much more current. If in thermally isolated trunking in will be rated at 24A but if laid directly on concrete wall it can go up to 32A. However, you have other wires put together.This will affect ambient temperature as well.

Hope this helps.
Zot
post Nov 12 2024, 08:44 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 11 2024, 09:36 PM)
Could you cite the ST source for this please? I unfortunately can't remember ever seeing these specifications.
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https://www.st.gov.my/contents/publications...uildings%20.pdf
Zot
post Nov 12 2024, 10:18 AM

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QUOTE(lj0000 @ Nov 12 2024, 10:06 AM)
Need to follow cable size. Not socket qty
Avoid ring if possible. If the ring break, mcb won't trip even when overloaded

I would love to see the St publication.
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Cable size is already defined for lighting and socket. Why ring will not trip if overloaded? The current to MCB is still total of two separated string of loads. Note that each socket is still protected by 13A fuse.
Zot
post Nov 12 2024, 10:40 AM

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QUOTE(lj0000 @ Nov 12 2024, 10:25 AM)
Ring uses loop. If the loop is broken
The only become 1 wire feeding the socket instead of two.
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Yes, but the wire is still the 4mm wire for the socket as standard
Zot
post Nov 12 2024, 01:00 PM

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QUOTE(lj0000 @ Nov 12 2024, 11:29 AM)
user posted image
https://www.st.gov.my/contents/publications...uildings%20.pdf
page18

here say ring use 2.5mm2 and mcb 32amps.
if ring use 4mm2, then no issue.
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I see what you meant. I did not look into drawing detail. I am wondering if the 2.5 and 4 is actually the surface area. When I look at the wire, it looks like the wire diameter not area laugh.gif If it is really the 2.5mm², then the diameter is only 1.78mm.

Anyway, even if the area is 2.5mm², the wire will survive much longer than the MCB tripping time based on what I used to read before. Anyway, not good as you say laugh.gif
Zot
post Nov 13 2024, 08:57 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 12 2024, 05:42 PM)
Very sorry, but you have made a mistake, as lj0000 has also pointed out to you. I reproduce the diagram from the ST document you linked to below

user posted image

The MCB protects the wires from melting, not you put a 32 A MCB you can have 4 socket outlets. The wire sizes are stated in the diagram, and are the determining factor for the MCB rating. You can see the ring circuit is using 2.5 mm². (2 x 2.5 mm² = 5 mm², which is larger than 4 mm²) That is the Cross Sectional Area of the wire, not diameter.

lj0000 also points out that in the ring circuit a wire may be disconnected, and then it becomes unsafe. This really happens from my experience, as different techs will service the wiring without knowing the ring connection. There is also specific requirements if you want to branch off from a ring circuit. I do not like ring circuits for these reasons.
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Yes I understood what you said. I also mentioned that the MCB is more on protecting wire in the wall, not appliances.

My house is ring and it is using 4mm wire, not the 2.5mm like in diagram. I was not looking at the diagram because for me any socket is using 4mm sad.gif . My mistake there. The reason I mentioned about area vs diameter was because the 2.5mm² wire has less than 2mm diameter which is very small and makes me wonder if it really the area. laugh.gif
Zot
post Nov 13 2024, 10:18 AM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 13 2024, 09:53 AM)
One reason for using a ring circuit is so that you can use under specced wires to perform like larger wires, ie 2 x 2.5 mm² wires can perform like 4 mm². Did your installer tell you they used 4 mm² in a 32 A ring circuit, and did you confirm this for yourself?

Because it makes no sense to use 4 mm² in a ring circuit as 4 mm² is already rated individually for 32 A. Now if you said the ring circuit is 50 A but using 4 mm² then it makes sense.
(Slight aside : The other reason for a ring circuit is to ensure less voltage drop over the wiring for very large areas. Malaysia supply is 230 V +10% -6%, so minimum of 216.2 V must reach the appliance.
2.5 mm² wire has a resistance of about 7 ohm per km.
user posted image
So according to the online calculator, it would require 49 m of 2.5 mm² wire length to drop that 13.8 V at full 20 A loading. I guess it is possible if your incoming is already low, and you area is very large, but my experience is TNB supply is always on the high side)
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Why it makes no sense? It is better, isn't it? The wiring is original from developer and I know it is a ring because I checked it myself. There is no voltage problem and it is just normal semi-D house size in Malaysia to concern about voltage drop in wire. I did extend a bit at the back of the house and I pulled another big cable from main DB to another DB I added at the back of the house to supply power for kitchen, air-cond and heaters to rooms/bathrooms at the back of the house. The kitchen is electrical hob, hood and garbage disposer. Developer only provide power points for air-cond and heater to master bedroom only. doh.gif My friend and I got cables laid down during renovation work.


Zot
post Nov 13 2024, 04:16 PM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 13 2024, 02:35 PM)
It makes no sense to me because it increases cost, increases complexity, increases installation work, increases points of failure, increases the chance of being done wrong (see conduit fill, proper torque for terminals, number of wires into a terminal) and is so unnecessary to do with 4 mm² at 32 A. There's also no benefit of increased current carrying capacity, as your MCB is C32 anyway. And you also say that the area is not that large, so no reason to do it for voltage drop in the wires.

I contend that a simpler system that does the job properly is always better than a complex system.

As for benefit, well it is a fully redundant system since you say the wires are 4 mm². Is this "better"?.... if you think it is better then it is.
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It is good say when the current in conductor is constantly high for long period. This will lower the wire operating temperature compare to smaller gauge. PVC insulated cable operating at 1x current load at 70C will have service life for 20 years. biggrin.gif
Zot
post Nov 18 2024, 03:13 PM

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QUOTE(stormer.lyn @ Nov 13 2024, 08:31 PM)
Lasting 20 years?!!  rclxub.gif

I have installations from 1990 still going strong till today  tongue.gif
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As mentioned if the cable/wire is operating hot at 70C. This is based on electrical engineering formulation. I believe it is more on insulation based on Arrhenius equation.

 

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