I almost forget tokkok in this thread.

Yes, no more commercials flight using max in indonesia, malaysia, Singapore, Thailand. Viet, Philippine and Myanmar out of my radar sorry.

Because this is not he first incident. Lion was always under question regarding the safety record. They’ve made it passed IOSA few years back, However the score just enough to pass. If they couldn’t maintain the record, Definitely Indonesian Authority would give AOC suspension. When the incident happened, all lion board members were extremely under pressure. Had to dealing with the incident, scrutinised by the people, and non stop meeting with the ministry of transport for every single updates.

You keeps on bising pasal training and challenging others... if the pilot were well trained, of course it would make a big different.

FYI.. Training, familiarisation, technical and support always part of the sales and purchase agreement AFAIK.

This is small part of agreement that mentioned about the customer support, maintenance and flight training upon the purchased of 737NG..

CUSTOMER SUPPORT DOCUMENT
PART 1: BOEING MAINTENANCE AND FLIGHT TRAINING

PROGRAMS; OPERATIONS ENGINEERING SUPPORT

1. Boeing Training Programs.

1.1 Boeing will provide maintenance training and flight training programs
to support the introduction of a specific model of aircraft into service. The
training programs will consist of general and specialized courses and will be
described in a Supplemental Exhibit to the applicable purchase agreement.

1.2 Boeing will conduct all training at Boeing's primary training facility
for the model of aircraft purchased unless otherwise agreed.

1.3 All training will be presented in the English language. If translation
is required, Customer will provide interpreters.

1.4 Customer will be responsible for all expenses of Customer's personnel.
Boeing will transport Customer's personnel between their local lodging and
Boeing's training facility.

2. Training Planning Conferences.

Customer and Boeing will conduct planning conferences approximately 12
months before the scheduled delivery month of the first aircraft of a model to
define and schedule the maintenance and flight training programs.

3. Operations Engineering Support.

3.1 As long as an aircraft purchased by Customer from Boeing is operated
by Customer in scheduled revenue service, Boeing will provide operations
engineering support. Such support will include:

3.1.1 assistance with the analysis and preparation of performance
data to be used in establishing operating practices and policies for Customer's
operation of aircraft;

3.1.2 assistance with interpretation of the minimum equipment list,
the definition of the configuration deviation list and the analysis of
individual aircraft performance;

3.1.3 assistance with solving operational problems associated with
delivery and route-proving flights;

3.1.4 information regarding significant service items relating to
aircraft performance or flight operations; and

3.1.5 if requested by Customer, Boeing will provide operations
engineering support during an aircraft ferry flight.

4. Training at a Facility Other Than Boeing's.

If requested by Customer, Boeing will conduct the classroom portions of
the maintenance and flight training (except for the Performance Engineer
training courses) at a mutually acceptable alternate training site, subject to
the following conditions:

4.1 Customer will provide acceptable classroom space, simulators (as
necessary for flight training) and training equipment required to present the
courses;

4.2 Customer will pay Boeing's then-current per diem charge for each
Boeing instructor for each day, or fraction thereof, that the instructor is away
from their home location, including travel time;

4.3 Customer will reimburse Boeing for the actual costs of round-trip
transportation for Boeing's instructors and the shipping costs of training
Materials between the primary training facility and the alternate training site;

4.4 Customer will be responsible for all taxes, fees, duties, licenses,
permits and similar expenses incurred by Boeing and its employees as a result of
Boeing's providing training at the alternate site or incurred as a result of
Boeing providing revenue service training; and

4.5 Those portions of training that require the use of training devices
not available at the alternate site will be conducted at Boeing's facility or at
some other alternate site.

5. General Terms and Conditions.

5.1 Boeing flight instructor personnel will not be required to work more
than 5 days per week, or more than 8 hours in any one 24-hour period, of which
not more than 5 hours per 8-hour workday will be spent in actual flying. These
foregoing restrictions will not apply to ferry assistance or revenue service
training services, which will be governed by FAA rules and regulations.

5.2 NORMAL LINE MAINTENANCE is defined as line maintenance that Boeing
might reasonably be expected to furnish for flight crew training at Boeing's
facility, and will include ground support and aircraft storage in the open, but
will not include provision of spare parts. Boeing will provide Normal Line
Maintenance services for any
aircraft while the aircraft is used for flight crew training at Boeing's
facility in accordance with the Boeing Maintenance Plan (Boeing document
D6-xxxxxx) and the Repair Station Operation and Inspection Manual (Boeing
document D6-xxxxx), which terms are available to Customer upon reasonable
request. Customer will provide such services if flight crew training is
conducted elsewhere. Regardless of the location of such training, Customer will
be responsible for providing all maintenance items (other than those included in
Normal Line Maintenance) required during the training, including, but not
limited to, fuel, oil, landing fees and spare parts. Boeing will assist Customer
with purchase of any such items, at no additional cost to Customer.

5.3 If the training is based at Boeing's facility, and the aircraft is
damaged during such training, Boeing will make all necessary repairs to the
aircraft as promptly as possible. Customer will pay Boeing's reasonable charge,
including the price of parts and materials, for making the repairs. If Boeing's
estimated labor charge for the repair exceeds $25,000, Boeing and Customer will
enter into an agreement for additional services before beginning the repair
work.

5.4 If the flight training is based at Boeing's facility, several airports
in surrounding states may be used, at Boeing's option. Unless otherwise agreed
in the flight training planning conference, it will be Customer's responsibility
to make arrangements for the use of such airports.

5.5 If Boeing agrees to make arrangements on behalf of Customer for the
use of airports for flight training, Boeing will pay on Customer's behalf any
landing fees charged by any airport used in conjunction with the flight
training. Boeing will submit to Customer an invoice for any such landing fees
Boeing has paid on Customer's behalf, approximately 60 days after flight
training is completed, when all landing fee charges have been received and
verified. Customer will pay to Boeing within 30 days of the date of the invoice.

5.6 If requested by Boeing, in order to provide the flight training or
ferry flight assistance, Customer will make available to Boeing an aircraft
after delivery to familiarize Boeing instructor or ferry flight crew personnel
with such aircraft. If flight of the aircraft is required for any Boeing
instructor or ferry flight crew member to maintain an FAA license for flight
proficiency or landing currency, Boeing will be responsible for the costs of
fuel, oil, landing fees and spare parts attributable to that portion of the
flight.

5.7 If any part of the training described in Article 1.1 of this Exhibit
is not used by Customer within 12 months after the delivery of the last aircraft
under the relevant purchase agreement, Boeing will not be obligated to provide
such training.



VS




Boeing 737Max

CUSTOMER SUPPORT VARIABLES relating to BOEING MODEL 737 MAX AIRCRAFT



Customer and Boeing will conduct planning conferences approximately twelve (12) months prior to delivery of the first Aircraft, or as mutually agreed, in order to develop and schedule a customized Customer Support Program to be furnished by Boeing in support of the Aircraft.
The customized Customer Services Program will be based upon and equivalent to the entitlements summarized below.

1. Maintenance Training.
1.1 Mechanical/Power Plant Course; one (1) class of fifteen (15) students;
1.2 Electrical Systems Course; one (1) class of fifteen (15) students;
1.3 Avionics Systems Course; one (1) class of fifteen (15) students;
1.4 Aircraft Rigging Course; one (1) class of six (6) students;
1.5 Advanced Composite Repair Course; one (1) class of eight (8) students.
1.6 Training materials will be provided to each student. In addition, one set of training materials as used in Boeing’s training program, including visual aids, Computer Based Training Courseware, instrument panel wall charts, text/graphics, video programs, etc. will be provided for use in Customer’s own training program.


2. Flight Training.
2.1 Boeing will provide one classroom course to acquaint up to eight (8) students (four (4) flight crews) with operational, systems and performance differences between Customer’s newly-purchased Aircraft and an aircraft of the same model currently operated by Customer.
2.2 Training materials will be provided to each student. In addition, one set of training materials as used in Boeing’s training program, including Computer Based Training Courseware, instrument panel wall charts, Flight Attendant Manuals, etc. will be provided for use in Customer’s own training program. Customer is authorized to duplicate and use Boeing provided training materials to train Customer’s personnel in their own training program, it being understood that revision service for these materials is not provided by Boeing.




TLDR = Yes, as the buyer, you have every single right to get/request full training and operational systems course of your newly-purchased aircraft From the Seller/Manufacturer!!


The staffs who involved in those conversations, not only being RUDE.. They are also GUILTY!

#DoneDakwah



















#Legal disclaimer = @LadyTarot99 makes no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, as to the information, content, materials included on this comment and @LadyTarot99 will not be liable for any financial or legal damages arising from This Ultimately, all Of my comment are understood to be for entertainment purposes only.

That’s the reason why B*eing is at fault. ....” From its inception, Boeing’s 737 Max was designed to save airlines the expense of training their pilots on flight simulators. During the initial approval of the plane and after two crashes killed 346 people last year, Boeing argued in conversations with the Federal Aviation Administration that simulator training was not necessary.

Now, after a worldwide grounding has cost the company billions of dollars over nearly 10 months and caused it to temporarily halt the production of the Max, Boeing has reversed course. On Tuesday, the company said it would recommend that pilots train in flight simulators before flying the Max.” NY times.

No SIM training on MAX because Boeing never provide and thinks that unnecessary. Now statements putar halim. And the worst part, when the buyer requested, they laugh at them... this is not cheap Bentl*y or Ferr*ri.. This is d*mn aeroplane!!! I can’t brain their staffs could made fun of it...




Meanwhile,





Sim training most likely always been part of the “Seller Flight Training Program” in the past.



......”3.1 Flight Crew Training Course.

Transition training for 6 flight crews (12 pilots); The training will consist of grounds school (utilizing computer based training), fixed base simulator, full flight simulator and actual aircraft training on Customer's Aircraft.

3.2 Flight Dispatcher Training Course.

Flight Dispatcher training; 5 Days, up to 10 people

3.3 Flight Attendant Training Course.

Flight Attendant training; 3 Days, up to 20 people

3.4 Performance Engineer Training Courses.

Performance Engineer Training; will be provided at Seller's facility, up to 5 people....”



Regarding your question about Lion air’s pilot about how, what, why, who.... I can’t answer, I’m not working for lion air, nor owned the company. Please contact lion air directly if you want further/details info..


And it’s not a witch-hunt!!!! 346 passengers killed...! And they are at fault, the company, the employees, because not only failed to address the changes, and provide necessary training, they’re t*lk sh*t when they should be professional. I bet, you’ll never understand till the karma knock you hard #SMH




#Legal disclaimer = @LadyTarot99 makes no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, as to the information, content, materials included on this comment and @LadyTarot99 will not be liable for any financial or legal damages arising from This Ultimately, all Of my comment are understood to be for entertainment purposes only.

[quote=limeuu,Jan 16 2020, 08:01 AM]
[/spoiler]
#DoneDakwah
#Legal disclaimer = @LadyTarot99 makes no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, as to the information, content, materials included on this comment and @LadyTarot99 will not be liable for any financial or legal damages arising from This Ultimately, all Of my comment are understood to be for entertainment purposes only.

[/quote]
You are not "value adding" to the discussion..... apparently ...lol

[/quote]


Understood !👌🏻

Don’t stir the racial issue.. for your information, when many of the malaysian pilot can’t rely on our local Aviation job, Indonesian Aviation welcome them to get a decent job and decent salary. Many Indonesian pilot that I know worked for first line airways, doing great, and they are equally good with ours. Stop looking down at others, look at malaysia current situation! Another katak bawah tempurung !

You don’t have to explain about Garuda, Lion, or Pilot. And I don’t have to check on google about the reason why FAA and EU suspended Garuda or Lion. You are the one who bring “breed” on your comment. That’s why I remind you about the racial issue. Thanks.

Whatever you want to say lahhh... if your comments really matters, go flip the table in front of FAA.

Well, their market is screwed anyway. Let them be whatever they wants to be... We’re quite happy with A320&330neo so far

Thanks for the info, and apologies for the misunderstanding. As I never use that term before.

This post has been edited by ladytarot99: Jan 16 2020, 09:57 PM