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 Image stablizer vs Sensor size (High ISO), Edited

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TSmars2005
post Jun 29 2007, 12:00 AM, updated 19y ago

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I was the fan of canon all this while, until recently, i came across with fujifilm, and my target switch to the latter brand. However, fujifilm does not offer DC with image stabilizer. So my question is, is it really needed? Especially for those prosumer cam. please advice notworthy.gif.
Some say that IS can't do much especially when taking telephoto. True?

Found this source and think it's pretty informative describing the pros and cons of IS and High ISO.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by mars2005: Jul 9 2007, 01:26 PM
calvin_gsc
post Jun 29 2007, 12:03 AM

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QUOTE(mars2005 @ Jun 29 2007, 12:00 AM)
I was the fan of canon all this while, until recently, i came across with fujifilm, and my target switch to the latter brand. However, fujifilm does not offer DC with image stabilizer. So my question is, is it really needed? Especially for those prosumer cam. please advice  notworthy.gif.
Some say that IS can't do much especially when taking telephoto. True?
*
I personally think it's very useful.

Some people say to get clear pictures must have skill and all.

But those lenses with VR, IS actually helps a lot in taking photos.

Sony Alpha users benefit from the builtin image stabilizer in the body.
cjtune
post Jun 29 2007, 12:32 AM

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When the sun starts setting, I am one of the few fellas that can still shoot HANDHELD. I don't really bother to carry a tripod anymore, and my focus is on street photography.

When was the last time you did a handheld shot at 1/5 sec and still got something usable like this picture below?

user posted image

Full-resolution image available at: http://www.box.net/shared/34r9hu3yd2

You can still read the 'Caution' sign that's on the fence. But you can see that there is a bit of blur. For my E-510, the IS starts failing below 1/8 sec for my regular zoom range of 28-100 mm. The above image shows the IS at its limits. Most pictures faster than 1/8 sec, and below that of the typical 1/30 sec that I can handle steadily without IS for my standard zoom lens, is as sharp as if you used the correct shutter speed as per the 1/f rule.


Added on June 29, 2007, 12:36 am
QUOTE(calvin_gsc @ Jun 29 2007, 12:03 AM)
Some people say to get clear pictures must have skill and all.
*
Yes, but they also fail to mention that a significant contributor is better equipment.
Maybe they're too shy to admit that.

This post has been edited by cjtune: Jun 29 2007, 12:36 AM
g88
post Jun 29 2007, 02:03 AM

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Have some read here http://www.canon.com/bctv/faq/optis.html
clemong_888
post Jun 29 2007, 07:15 AM

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really depends on what u're shooting but in general, it does help smile.gif
xxx2299
post Jun 29 2007, 07:52 AM

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I took these just now at full wide angle, then crop out the tape for easy reference.
taken in 3 modes of IS; namely OFF doh.gif , mode 1 , mode 2

1. IS OFF
user posted image

2. IS mode 1
user posted image

3. IS mode 2
user posted image

xxx2299
post Jun 29 2007, 08:03 AM

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now took at 2x zoom, then crop out the tape for easy reference.
taken in 3 modes of IS; namely OFF , mode 1 , mode 2

here, you can see some differences

1. IS OFF
user posted image

2. IS mode 1
user posted image

3. IS mode 2
user posted image

This post has been edited by xxx2299: Jun 29 2007, 08:13 AM
sinister
post Jun 29 2007, 09:19 AM

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r u moving to fuji s5?
tom_k3nt
post Jun 29 2007, 11:01 AM

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I think it is important loe.. Using my Panasonic Lumix series... i do feel the different... u will get less blur image....
cyanide
post Jun 29 2007, 11:24 AM

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sorry... side topic a bit...


FX-30 Lumix, 850 IS Ixus, F31fd,
which shall i pick?
walabies
post Jun 29 2007, 01:33 PM

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QUOTE(cyanide @ Jun 29 2007, 11:24 AM)
sorry... side topic a bit...
FX-30 Lumix, 850 IS Ixus, F31fd,
which shall i pick?
*
panasonic dude, no doubt
any1else87
post Jun 29 2007, 02:12 PM

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i heard taht panasonic cameras emits lots of noise when used over a certain period. Anyone care to confirm?
TSmars2005
post Jun 29 2007, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(xxx2299 @ Jun 29 2007, 07:52 AM)
I took these just now at full wide angle, then crop out the tape for easy reference.
taken in 3 modes of IS; namely OFF  doh.gif  , mode 1 , mode 2

1. IS OFF
user posted image

2. IS mode 1
user posted image

3. IS mode 2
user posted image
*
wow rclxms.gif thanks for the samples. Are you using prosumer cam? If yes mind to take share sample with 10X?
Actually, i got the idea on how to compensate IS function, which is increase the ISO and reduce the shutter speed. Since Fujifilm do so well at high ISO, will that do as good as IS if not better?
Really hope i have both cam to do my won comparision. blush.gif


Added on June 29, 2007, 2:16 pm
QUOTE(clemong_888 @ Jun 29 2007, 07:15 AM)
really depends on what u're shooting but in general, it does help smile.gif
*
i like to take scenery pics. Ofcos, portrait with the depth effect, whihc required high zoom (correct if im wrong). Therefore, i afraid i chose the wrong camera.


Added on June 29, 2007, 2:17 pm
QUOTE(sinister @ Jun 29 2007, 09:19 AM)
r u moving to fuji s5?
*
Previously aim for Canon S3, now targeting Fuji S6500 smile.gif


Added on June 29, 2007, 2:18 pm
QUOTE(cyanide @ Jun 29 2007, 11:24 AM)
sorry... side topic a bit...
FX-30 Lumix, 850 IS Ixus, F31fd,
which shall i pick?
*
If i were to buy compact one, i'll go for fuji smile.gif

This post has been edited by mars2005: Jun 29 2007, 02:18 PM
tongyam
post Jun 29 2007, 02:18 PM

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siang, if u got any camera inquire u can ym or pm wink.gif
TSmars2005
post Jun 29 2007, 02:21 PM

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QUOTE(any1else87 @ Jun 29 2007, 02:12 PM)
i heard taht panasonic cameras emits lots of noise when used over a certain period. Anyone care to confirm?
*
As i know, panasonic do a lot of noise reduction, so the pics usually will be softer especially at high ISO.
lanusb
post Jun 29 2007, 03:38 PM

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is really helps....especialy mode 1
phat_newbie
post Jun 29 2007, 03:45 PM

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QUOTE(cyanide @ Jun 29 2007, 11:24 AM)
sorry... side topic a bit...
FX-30 Lumix, 850 IS Ixus, F31fd,
which shall i pick?
*
Go for canon Ixus 850IS.... rclxms.gif
vX-2
post Jun 29 2007, 10:56 PM

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I'm not so sure about prosumer cam, but for DLSR, any telephoto range (100mm and above) is advisible to have IS (if not, just use tripod lor)... the difference is quite obvious, the pic that I got with my 300mm (Sony Alpha) and my colleagues' 300mm (400D using sigma lens [70-300mm] without IS = GG)... And with enough lighting is also another factor...
avenger
post Jun 29 2007, 11:00 PM

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without image stabilizer, pictures that i took using 15x zoom will be all unusable......
aba9785
post Jun 30 2007, 09:57 AM

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tongyam
post Jun 30 2007, 10:38 AM

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cjtune
post Jun 30 2007, 11:56 AM

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QUOTE(aba9785 @ Jun 30 2007, 09:57 AM)
what about noise?
u can always use noise ninja or neat image to noise fixing
both of them r free
biggrin.gif
*
This is not always true.
Noise reduction always comes with the price of softness. Even without noise reduction, the moment you use higher ISO, you already lose out on the details.

Also, some cameras tend to give out funny faint vertical or horizontal bands at high ISOs which cannot be removed by any known noise-reduction software.

Even at LOW ISOs, you will find IS very useful as they allow you to take pictures with a very deep Depth-of-Field, like at f/8 or more. Handheld macros come to mind.

greyPJ
post Jun 30 2007, 07:59 PM

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taken with fuji f20 without OIS, iso 2000 1/42s.

user posted image

for non fuji cameras with OIS, this has to be taken with iso400 and SS will have to drop to 1/10s or less, slow SS will risk motion blur, blinking eyes will make the pic useless. OIS is good for static objects in low light and in bright condition long zoom action shots.

OIS makes a difference in slow SS, but its still not easy to get a sharp pic at slower SS like 1/4s as the shake during pressing of the shutter button is difficult to stabilize.

with OIS you still need to use the timer and or shoot in burst mode to avoid shaking during pressing of the shutter button.

fuji f6000fd, iso 800 1/52s.

user posted image

user posted image
TSmars2005
post Jul 1 2007, 12:28 AM

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QUOTE(greyPJ @ Jun 30 2007, 07:59 PM)

fuji f6000fd, iso 800 1/52s.


user posted image
*
very lilltle noise even at high ISO. Btw, isn't f20 a compact cam? can zoom that far?
cjtune
post Jul 1 2007, 12:43 AM

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My perfect camera would be one that uses a Fuji SuperCCD (marvellous high ISO performance and dynamic range), and with on-body IS...
aba9785
post Jul 1 2007, 09:34 AM

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QUOTE(cjtune @ Jul 1 2007, 12:43 AM)
My perfect camera would be one that uses a Fuji SuperCCD (marvellous high ISO performance and dynamic range), and with on-body IS...
*
get a S5 Pro and equip it with VR lense from Nikon rclxms.gif
cjtune
post Jul 1 2007, 11:25 PM

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QUOTE(aba9785 @ Jul 1 2007, 09:34 AM)
get a S5 Pro and equip it with VR lense from Nikon rclxms.gif
*
Nah. I'd prefer the IS in-body so that ALL of my lenses benefit from it, even fully manual ones (eg. Pentax K10D lets you input focal length info for manual lenses to enable IS for them).

S5 Pro rather expensive maybe because Fuji is positioning it as a 'specialty' DSLR for users that really need the SuperCCD benefits because otherwise, it has no other distinguishing features from the cameras of the same level from the other makers.

For the rest of us, using high ISO is a definite sacrifice of detail vs shutter speed.

TSmars2005
post Jul 2 2007, 12:17 AM

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QUOTE(cjtune @ Jul 1 2007, 11:25 PM)

For the rest of us, using high ISO is a definite sacrifice of detail vs shutter speed.
*
What do u mean on the sacrifice? I tot fuji cam produces very good detail?
porkchop
post Jul 2 2007, 12:17 AM

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the problem with fuji not compact enough like casio slim
xxx2299
post Jul 2 2007, 07:32 AM

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these pics taken at 12x zoom, then crop out for easy reference.
taken in 3 modes of IS; namely OFF , mode 1 , mode 2

here, you can see distinctive differences.

OK, I m now convinced the use of IS.

1. IS OFF (I took several times just to make sure the blur image was not coincidental, and all turned out to be blur)
user posted image

2. IS mode 1
user posted image

3. IS mode 2
user posted image

This post has been edited by xxx2299: Jul 2 2007, 07:43 AM
vex
post Jul 2 2007, 08:38 AM

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fuji rock lah ...
too bad no $$$ to change camera yet. sad.gif
julchin_09
post Jul 2 2007, 11:01 AM

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Is this thread for voting. Cos im going to go for IS instead of ISO.....
SUSgogo2
post Jul 2 2007, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(walabies @ Jun 29 2007, 01:33 PM)
panasonic dude, no doubt
*
No lar. Panasonic is bad. Fuji F31fd is the best. Its proven.

QUOTE(phat_newbie @ Jun 29 2007, 03:45 PM)
Go for canon Ixus 850IS....  rclxms.gif
*
Canon Ixus 850IS is a joke if use at lowlight. doh.gif


Added on July 2, 2007, 11:11 am
QUOTE(julchin_09 @ Jul 2 2007, 11:01 AM)
Is this thread for voting. Cos im going to go for IS instead of ISO.....
*
IS is only useful if the object is not moving. if the object move, you'll still get blur image. that's why IS is 100% useless in this case.

High ISO is useful is every single situation. That's why everyone should just get a Fuji F31fd. All other compact camera can go to dustbin oredi laugh.gif

This post has been edited by gogo2: Jul 2 2007, 11:11 AM
ataris
post Jul 2 2007, 11:53 AM

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i was familiar with the IS but now I know whats the real usage of ISO besides getting the pictures grainy!
cjtune
post Jul 2 2007, 11:05 PM

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QUOTE(gogo2 @ Jul 2 2007, 11:09 AM)
No lar. Panasonic is bad. Fuji F31fd is the best. Its proven.
Canon Ixus 850IS is a joke if use at lowlight.  doh.gif


Added on July 2, 2007, 11:11 am
IS is only useful if the object is not moving. if the object move, you'll still get blur image. that's why IS is 100% useless in this case.

High ISO is useful is every single situation. That's why everyone should just get a Fuji F31fd. All other compact camera can go to dustbin oredi  laugh.gif
*
Fuji is the king of high ISO. Maybe that's why they don't need IS as an additional selling point. To clarify one point: with IS and if your shutter speed is too slow, you will get blurred moving SUBJECTS. You picture will still be mostly sharp. Depending on the mood and intent, IS in this case will still be anywhere from 0% to 100% useful/useless. This can be turned into a strength, as you are able to express subject movement by portraying it with movement blur without blurring the ENTIRE image.

This abstract shot below I present as an example:
user posted image

But for any other brand, IS+(moderately) high ISO is usually the best combo. Even with a low ISO but with IS, you are still able to avoid motion blur of the subject. Just make sure that the slower usable shutter speed that the IS offers you is still faster (by your experience, judgement) than the subjects movement speed. Eg. 1/200 sec at 400mm focal length on a running subject or on a walking subject will come out with an overall blurry picture. But with IS, 1/200 sec @ 400mm will have a blurred runner, but the walker and the rest of the background will still be pretty much or totally sharp.

So to offer a more streamlined answer: YES, IS is very important but if you do get a Fuji camera, maybe you won't need it as much. IS still depends on good and steady hand-holding, so if you have Parkinson's disease... I don't know how well it'll work for you. biggrin.gif


Added on July 2, 2007, 11:14 pm
QUOTE(greyPJ @ Jun 30 2007, 07:59 PM)


with OIS you still need to use the timer and or shoot in burst mode to avoid shaking during pressing of the shutter button.


*
OIS so bad meh?

Note sure about the IS technology used in my Oly E-510 but I highly suspect it's from their partnership with Panasonic.

I do not need to use the timer nor IR remote to get the full 2-stops (=4x slower shutter speed) of my IS. If I use a good handholding technique, I can get up to 3-stops.

I do bursts, not because of avoiding shake but I have noticed the IS system also takes time to 'lock-on' to your hand movement pattern, and Olympus decided that it's not an important to tell you how hard your IS is working (KM/Sony DSLRs has a meter telling the user how much the IS is compensating for handshake so you know if the current shutter speed is too fast or too slow for even IS to work). So, sometimes the first pic of the burst can be blur but subsequent ones can be sharp. Usually, it will work on the first shot already.




This post has been edited by cjtune: Jul 2 2007, 11:14 PM
julchin_09
post Jul 3 2007, 02:26 AM

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QUOTE(gogo2 @ Jul 2 2007, 11:09 AM)
No lar. Panasonic is bad. Fuji F31fd is the best. Its proven.
Canon Ixus 850IS is a joke if use at lowlight.  doh.gif


Added on July 2, 2007, 11:11 am
IS is only useful if the object is not moving. if the object move, you'll still get blur image. that's why IS is 100% useless in this case.

High ISO is useful is every single situation. That's why everyone should just get a Fuji F31fd. All other compact camera can go to dustbin oredi  laugh.gif
*
If the object moves, and your focus is the object, then you would be panning with the object to get it sharp whilst the background is blurred...in this case the IS steps in to counter the handshake.

I do agree that ISO is handy is most situations....my cam can go up to 3200 if needed to and beats my previous prosumer. But I;d still prefer to keep the ISO and any noise levels to a minimum....So I;d go for IS. Maybe thats due to the nature of my pics.

Im not going to be a fanboy and start suggesting particular camera models.....

This post has been edited by julchin_09: Jul 3 2007, 03:20 AM
phat_newbie
post Jul 3 2007, 08:44 AM

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QUOTE(gogo2 @ Jul 2 2007, 11:09 AM)
No lar. Panasonic is bad. Fuji F31fd is the best. Its proven.
Canon Ixus 850IS is a joke if use at lowlight.  doh.gif


Added on July 2, 2007, 11:11 am
IS is only useful if the object is not moving. if the object move, you'll still get blur image. that's why IS is 100% useless in this case.

High ISO is useful is every single situation. That's why everyone should just get a Fuji F31fd. All other compact camera can go to dustbin oredi  laugh.gif
*
Fuji fanboy detected........
greyPJ
post Jul 3 2007, 10:08 AM

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phat_newbie
post Jul 3 2007, 10:43 AM

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cjtune
post Jul 3 2007, 11:10 PM

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QUOTE(greyPJ @ Jul 3 2007, 10:08 AM)
not "bad", but difficult.
you must have a steady hand if you can get a sharp pic on the first shot.

with OIS i find it quite hard, at 1/4s the chance is only 50/50, but if i use the timer or the burst mode, then i can get a sharp pic easily with OIS, or without, for FUji i can get a sharp pic easily at 1/4s using the burst mode, so OIS becomes a luxury, not necessity.

but OIS is a must for video recording.

and you are a blind canon 850is troll.
*
Your observation might be true too because I think it might be more difficult for compacts as their light weight compared to SLRs make them more susceptible to button-press shake. I think I'll try out some friends' IS-capable compacts one day.

At any rate, 1/4 sec is also where the IS on my E-510 starts to fail often so perhaps it's time I pick up your timer technique...

yawhong
post Jul 6 2007, 04:18 PM

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how about panasonic newly release fx100? it got IS and high ISO up to 6400. beside it had 12.2 mega pixels. Is this camera good ?
julchin_09
post Jul 7 2007, 03:06 AM

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QUOTE(yawhong @ Jul 6 2007, 04:18 PM)
how about panasonic newly release fx100? it got IS and high ISO up to 6400. beside it had 12.2 mega pixels. Is this camera good ?
*
Don't be too easily fooled by the specs. IS is good to have but ISO all the way up to 6400 ohmy.gif ? Thats like what the EOS1D MK III can do but I can only imagine the noise levels for this Pana shakehead.gif . And 12.2 MP pix don't matter if the sensor is still a puny 1/2.5 whistling.gif .

Are the reviews out yet? Maybe there are some test shots floating around the reviews. Can check them out and see...... icon_idea.gif
TSmars2005
post Jul 7 2007, 11:24 AM

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QUOTE(yawhong @ Jul 6 2007, 04:18 PM)
how about panasonic newly release fx100? it got IS and high ISO up to 6400. beside it had 12.2 mega pixels. Is this camera good ?
*
Since the sensor size is almost same as fuji's, I would expect it to be usable until ISO800 (edited) (with acceptable noise level). Above that no way. Btw, you may not see noise in panasonic cam, but u gonna see watercolour painting.

Anyway... this is an ideal consumer cam available right now.

This post has been edited by mars2005: Jul 7 2007, 11:32 AM
cjtune
post Jul 7 2007, 11:57 AM

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QUOTE(mars2005 @ Jul 7 2007, 11:24 AM)
Since the sensor size is almost same as fuji's, I would expect it to be usable until ISO800 (edited) (with acceptable noise level). Above that no way. Btw, you may not see noise in panasonic cam, but u gonna see watercolour painting.

Anyway... this is an ideal consumer cam available right now.
*
I think if the sensor size is the same, but if there are more photosites/pixels, then you should be worried.
The more pixel/photosite density per area of sensor, the more noisy the sensor is, generally, and either they will let it show or they will implement an even more aggresive anti-noise algorithm which gives rise to the 'watercolour painting' effect.

I don't think there is any P&S that gives good high ISO performance above ISO400 other than the Fuji F30, F31 but that's only up till ISO800. Of course, the definition of 'acceptable' may vary -but check out the many thorough reviews of cameras and their high ISO performance at DPReview.

sinister
post Jul 8 2007, 12:26 PM

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Actually, having high ISO is sometimes good if u want creativity, for example, using high ISO so u have noises, then converted to sephia to give an Old picture effect..
cjtune
post Jul 8 2007, 02:38 PM

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QUOTE(sinister @ Jul 8 2007, 12:26 PM)
Actually, having high ISO is sometimes good if u want creativity, for example, using high ISO so u have noises, then converted to sephia to give an Old picture effect..
*
I prefer to keep my options open by being able to capture as much detail as possible, and then only add noise, desaturation, colourisation effects via a photo editor. With some modern digital cams having some other high-ISO side-effects like banding, this is not really a preferred option to get that gritty or old-style look...



yawhong
post Jul 9 2007, 08:53 AM

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beside fx100, panasonic do come out compact + semi pro camera such as lumix lx2. this camera have bigger lense compare to fuji and there ISO can reach till 3200. So is it mean their picture is good in high ISO? but reading so many reviews regard this camera their noise management is not the good even at ISO 200.
SUSgogo2
post Jul 9 2007, 10:23 AM

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QUOTE(yawhong @ Jul 9 2007, 08:53 AM)
beside fx100, panasonic do come out compact + semi pro camera such as lumix lx2. this camera have bigger lense compare to fuji and there ISO can reach till 3200. So is it mean their picture is good in high ISO? but reading so many reviews regard this camera their noise management is not the good even at ISO 200.
*
support high ISO doesn't mean its good. must check out review first smile.gif so far, a lot of camera wanna beat Fuji. But unfortunately, all failed. I'm not Fuji fanboy. I really want to see good camera with low noise like Fuji and good IS/lens like Panasonic or Canon.
TSmars2005
post Jul 9 2007, 01:33 PM

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Title edited. I feel like saying sensor size is better then ISO number as most manufacturer (in fact all inclucing fuji) out there misleading consumer by putting high number. The fact is, bigger sensor is better.
Bigger sensor means higher ISO that a camera can achieve without adding noise into the image.


 

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