Those who came from IT or Computer Science degrees, do you look down on self learned / programmer from different degrees? Like me I learn programming from google only, able to code but some programmer said my code sucks.

This post has been edited by whElectrical: May 1 2019, 07:37 PM

What Programming Language did you self learn ? I want to go this direction too but really need discipline to do it successfully.

Not look down, but without cs foundation, your code can be sucks.

I'm computer science grad, I dun look down on self learner ... actually I respect them, coz they willing to take initiative to learn something new.

I think everyone all start out to be a noob, so dun feel discourage being criticize. I was once a noob programmer and get scold as well.

continue practise and learning and you will be pro. Even you are not working as a programmer, you can consider you are learning a new hobby.

can we see?

no, I don't look down on people learning even how to make karipap. I majoring cs during uni time, still learning in my company. You can learn anywhere as long you get proper tutorials

Thank you sir. I wish more people like you. Programming field ia tough cause the tool to use in industry always change so fast. I get discouraged when my colleagues talk about CS terms and I dont have a clue what they mean.

A CS degree is not a guarantee that a person's code will not suck. Degree courses only cover basic programming topics. The rest will need to be self learned. It is a continuous learning process. Being able to cope with new stuff is expected.

If a person says your code sucks, ask them why it sucks. This way you can learn how to improve your code.

I don't think Leonardo Da Vinci went for art lessons. Self learn usually have more determination than cert based...

During the early days of computing in the 80s I got fedup of doing repetitive work every year for audit purposes.

So i picked up a dBase3 book read it and wrote my own code with no prior computer programming knowledge.
the bank did not have an IT dept then.

the programs worked fine and after i left the bank they continued to use it until year 2000 when the programs were rewritten by the IT dept using my templates for y2k compliance purposes.

i did hear from my ex coworkers that the IT dept said that the code was like spaghetti. 🤣

Haha. Wow your story is awesome.
I like to organize my code. So my code isn't spaghetti like.
But I may have writing code in a newbie way. For example, some CS people have mentioned that I code using weird method, while they could've done it differently and more correctly, according to them.

Be proud of yourself. Many came from CS/IT can't even code or code properly. The way to construct ur code and whether the piece of code is re-usable is the key. Not All-in-One kind of code. It will make it difficult to maintain and troubleshoot when something is wrong with ur code.

It takes time, practice & experience to make it better and better.

All the best!

This post has been edited by PrawnStarz: May 2 2019, 10:15 AM

Self learner is ok, but 'Languages' doesn't improve ur code standard, its ur practice.
How well ur OPP/ DB structure design, this will decide how far ur program can further develop in the future, reusability, readability, maintainability, resourcing etc.
I would say all these came from experience, i seen many IT graduated with experience still writing terrible code. As long as the code work, they are satisfied, they got no demand on the quality/standard, no intention to create good program, hence terrible code exist. Everyone start with bad code, because u don't know what u know, u just need some self-discipline for demanding better code standard which eventually get u further

This post has been edited by ragk: May 2 2019, 11:40 AM

Even those own CS degree have to do self learning for new languages or new platform.
CS degree do give a foundation of CS when come to computer jargon.
Every programmer starts with spaghetti code even you use very high level language.
What you need is write more programs, read more other people code and get more exposure.
Try to ask why your program sucks and find a way to improve it.
When you have time, try to review your own program to see if any places you can improve it, or try to expand/upgrade it to do more things. A good program doesn't only look nice in source code but also include good documentation, maintainability and dependability.

I interviewed such a self learner before, and while he didn't make the cut (and not by my decision either), I do believe he did better than quite a number of those who came from a CS background.

It's also true that there are some fundamental mistakes that he has made, and there's definitely room for improvement, its nothing that proper exposure and coaching cannot resolve.

Only reason why he didn't make the cut was because department leadership was in need of somebody more experienced at that time due to project crunch time then.

I was about to open a new topic ask the similiar question,

My current job is doing network infrastructure and hardware related are also self taught about 7 years +/- .

At the moment i am keen to learn C# to enhance myself, but i do not have any background totally zero knowledge about programming.

Can I just join part time classes just like that? is there any requirement in other basic language before i start?

This post has been edited by deyamato: May 3 2019, 09:07 AM

maybe u could show some of ur codes so we can give suggestions for improvements.

i respect those who can self learn, my course teach programming also, but i totally cannot code. even though it was taught, we have to self learn also, cos whatever shown by the tutor all come from book, some of the tutor might not have working experience also.

code quality comes from guidance and those standard set by companies, what was taught in college will not cover that especially come to huge system.

This post has been edited by anakkk: May 7 2019, 03:34 PM

I've saw many self-learn wannabe programmers doing coding, and their codes suck big time. Oh btw, I'm doing SAP and sometime you can see codes like spaghetti churned out by those wannabes. If you're functional consultant, please get help from your technical guys to put in the codes.. please.

just take(download) some online courses and learn it,follow it through and you will be good, then start writing some simple apps(pet projects)

i feel like if you are non programmers, you actually gain alot from know how to do programming
for example, instead of have to login to a system to get metrics from different pages and compile to a report, just write a application to do exactly that, and you can do something else(learn more coding maybe)

i hired someone who self learn programming previously. thought want to give him a chance. didn't work out too well. u need to have certain logical thinking to code. and take up maths in uni. for simple application maybe can, but not for complex ones.

if you are self-learning to do coding and software development, don't be discourage by negative comments about your coding structure or skills. Be perseverance in what you believe in. Your skills in coding and software development will improve as you gain more experiences.

would also encourage you to do some readings on computational algorithms, UI/UX and networking to lay a more solid foundations in your self-learning journey.

good luck.

That's the same sort of mistake that a fresh grad out of computer science will make as well. Its mistakes made not because they are self taught, but more of lacking in proper mentorship and exposure.

No amount of learning maths in university can make up for being able to think in a logical manner, and this for the most part can be cultivated. And some food for thought too. I've seen professors who are brilliant in their fields of research, for things like algorithms for crunching out patterns in super long DNA strings, etc, but at the same time, they can be quite bad at software engineering, which is a totally different type of discipline altogether.

It's probably not due to you being a self-taught programmer, but really your code sucks. Some programmers have the habit that as long as the code works, it'll be fine.

So the conclusion is most of the outside company don't accept fresh programmers?

This post has been edited by deyamato: May 13 2019, 01:38 PM

more accurate to say that nobody will accept fresh programmers for a senior position

Ideally you need both because IT industry sucks at job separation/specialization.

For example in building construction... architects, civil engineer, wireman, brick layer... all have separate responsibility.

But in IT more often than not (especially if u just starting a career and start working in small company)... you need to do everything.

So you will need the theoretical and managerial knowledge offered by a degree program. At same time you also need to know coding and all the nitty gritty of IT.

Habis luahan perasaan. Moga maju jaya dalam kerjaya anda.

Accept. But you need to be:
- humble,
- willing to learn (means willing to try, to make mistake, not repeat same mistake)
- ask question when you stuck, but find some possible solutions by yourself first (example: "i have this problem X, I think the solution is Y or Z, can you guide me?")
- like reading
- like reading
- like reading

That's just my personal take.

Hi, I have kinda completed my BlackJack with Javascript. What do you guys think? My github - https://github.com/ngaisteve1/BlackJackJS

If sucks, let me know why

wow, what kind of mindset is that?

Me myself in IT infra many years don't even dare claim myself be a expert.

So now i understood why nobody will accept as you mentioned.

Anyway, i was about to prepare sign up academy+self taught at home for the programming, hopefully everything smooth as a front-end beginner.

I always likes to learn, and I do understand every individual company requirement take times to get use to it and sometimes may face some seniors how they judge look down on fresh people instead of instruct.

and above you mentioned, i've already noted. thank you.

yes, you can self learned
the rule is .. patience

code is logic.. the more simple the logic the easy for you and others to understand

just be careful on syntax and proper annotation

Hello guys, sorry to interrupt but i see that there are several experienced programmer in this thread. Can some of you provide some link for beginners to intermediate on building ecommerce and online booking instead of using wordpress.. If anyone can help on providing some advice and certain cheat sheet it would be much appreciated. Thanks

So did you fire him? I went to many interview for software developers actually. and they always give coding challenge. i manage to produce desired result but they always rejected me because of how i code.

it was a mutual breakup

how do YOU code?

in that interview, the coding challenge is to make
a simple program.

i completed it, works well, no bugs, no crash, i also organize the
code, making sure variable use meaningful words, but still the
interviewer reject it. he seems to say that my code is inefficient,
and not use correct design concept etc. i also duno.

so yim chim?
nvm consider it a blessing in disguise

Different places probably have different grading standards. But what I do find more common lately is less emphasis being placed on code efficiency, unless its critical red flags like double or triple nested loops, but rather the more important things are:

- code readability (somebody who never seen your code before, how quickly can they see what you're trying to do)
- testability (ensuring you structure things in a way that can be unit tested properly)

The part about design concept can somewhat be important, as it may impact testability of your code too

lately there's been a saying that's been going around more and more, that Debugging is twice as hard as coding work, and if you try to be as clever as you can when doing your coding, then you're in trouble when you need to debug your own code. And I've actually seen this happen quite often when I do my pairing interviews. Pretty good coders trying to be too clever, then run into trouble when trying to debug their code.

This post has been edited by malleus: May 15 2019, 08:55 PM

This is the reality of things. I assume you're now in a senior position in IT Infrastructure? Will you hire a hobbyist who tweaks around with his linux machine at home to be the key person managing your SAN?

This post has been edited by malleus: May 15 2019, 08:56 PM

the sad news is.. most company do fire / force resign to those unperformed .. its a cut throat business, all smile lunch and laugh together type but when it come to work all pointing middle finger to each other .. software dev is expansive some more .. thats why most of the company hire expatriate from India... cheap and efficient

so to the new guys joining ... dont fret.. arm yourself enough and be prepared to churn logic like pissing in toilet .. you will be happier trust me

I am learning too, don't give up, after learning the basic, try to solve leetcode (very challenging even the question is with easy tag). I realize i lack of knowledge in data structure to deal with binary tree, linked list etc. Leetcode shows you the time taken that your program run the get the output, i think this is called big O notation.

https://leetcode.com/problemset/all/
https://www.tutorialspoint.com/python/pytho...a_structure.htm

I dont think i can do it. furthermore im 40+ already. my coding skill maybe juniorish. i given up.

producing desired result in a programming test is often not really sufficient. that's really just the base line for them to continue evaluating further.

critical points are more on, what happens to your program when given unexpected input.

for example, you expect the input to be numbers, what happens if the user inputs an alphabet, or an emoji? does your program catch the invalid input and shows a relevant error message, or does it just crash? and do you write unit tests to handle such input or not, and if the unit tests that you write have 1) sufficient coverage and 2) meaningful coverage

its not just merely programming anymore. programming is merely the act of writing some code that does something. what that's more important is, how you plan how to handle issues when something goes wrong.

What I do find useful before you start on the actual programming task is, to ask yourself, as a user, what can you do to break the program. ie. the infamous "Let's see what happens if I try doing this?" question. then make sure your program is able to catch such problems and handle it accordingly.

Its just like once, I asked a rather basic question, what happens if the user attempts to use an emoji as part of their password. the entire project team just stared at me with their mouth open. then they realized, that they better go and handle such a case and reject the password and prompt the user to enter a new password.

This is not really a programming problem anymore. Its more of being able to think of possible problems, and how to prevent it from happening. Try to dissociate this from programming, then you'll find it a lot easier to handle.

do you mind to share what coding challenge they give?

Cheap probably, efficient .. questionable. I went to few projects, called last minutes to do clean up and I can tell you, most of them are bollocks, they can talk but they can't code! Most of them don't understand the requirements and when facing a problem, they put a workaround in their codes. Though I've found some that are really good, but majority of them can talk but can't deliver.

Just a simple vehicle rent management application.
database can key in vehicle brand and model and no. of passengers.
then can also store customer info which includes gender, name and IC number.

What language they require and how long to complete it? Code it onsite?

Hello, have you register account at leetcode? i wonder is this free register or they give trial after register?

I am trying to hire programming dev for my company,
and sometimes I see resumes that stated that they are self-learn programmer.

The issue with being a self-learn programmer from an employer's perspective is that there are many more self-learn programmer that just take 1 online course free/paid, then they write on their resume that they are self-learn programmer..and they would write the time they took to complete the course as "how many years of experience"

These people give other legitimately good self-learn programmer a bad impression.

i am 23, my brain too easily forgetting things especially coding stuff, must need lot of dedication and discipline to continue reading programming book of 2k pages, worked under my cousins for 1 month, still don't know how to debug in VS, when run in debug press continue check each lines of codes see the lines jump also don't know when and which code might have problem,ie if a variable should have value or null, i guess i will have to really read whole book and get full understanding first

This post has been edited by ky1996: May 28 2019, 08:37 AM

Nah, every code programmer is the same, regardless whether you're formally educated or self-learner - the difference is the school of thought and ethics.

wouldn't dare to do that lol, later masuk kerja apa pun duno cannot do gg yourself only, i honest just say my skills very basic only on resume

really? like those indian dudes in freelancer.com? every time i open that site i felt useless so many people there offering their work, means so many people are more competitive than you

its not about apa pun cannot do, you have the basic and willing to learn then ask your senior teach you what the company needs and don't try to be you are better than them that's it. And refer back last page @malleus post.

This post has been edited by deyamato: May 30 2019, 02:55 PM

I am not sure what type of developers would say any code sucks. In any codes, there are many ways to derive an objective (or objectives). Some with more experience will be able to determine gaps (or flaws). Personally, I would not term "sucks". Perhaps it would be not efficient? But developers don't judge. We merely suggest!.

ok got it

No need read that much pages la
Just practice and practice. Read basic only enough.
Later if you dunno stuff can google or refer to book if know what to find
Just 1 month what u expect meh, this thing take longer to at least do decent

his adik 2 weeks ady can help him in the big project (business solution) but he is talented and more interested and more discipline than me so yeah

This post has been edited by ky1996: May 31 2019, 02:26 PM

This one matter. Are you interested enough?
If you program solely just to earn some money that's not enough to keep you motivated and disciplined.
Doesn't matter 2 weeks or 2 years, as long as you show you are interested and wanna learn you can be successful too
This thing is constant learning, you will never stop.

yeah, interested but not as much as my cousin, he really has strong passion and curiosity and discipline

Firstly, I think there are a couple of things that you should be honest with yourself. Do you truly love programming and what it can do to help you achieve your goals in live? Or are you just doing it because you see the fat paychecks that developers get? A good programmer has to be driven by passion as there is so much going on in the tech world, that there's only so much you can take before you burn out. Genuine passion helps alleviate that but even then, it is not uncommon for developers to change projects, albeit in the same industry.

Are you currently employed? If possible, come up with scripts/software to help you at work. Once you finish them, don't just abandon them. Always look for ways on how you can refactor your code to improve it as that is one of the best way to apply new knowledge gained over time.

Start a github repo as well and upload any projects you start and use that repo as part of your resume. If you truly believe you have what it takes, all you need is just constant practice and a github repo helps with accountability and experience on your resume.

If these people can do it, then 40 doesn't mean jack shit tbh.

More often than not, code written by non-comp science degrees appear to be more straight forward; compared to IT grads' are full of "enterprisey" code that did nothing other than making the code more complicated.

The best is to do mini projects on your own. Say number guessing, hangman, tic-tac-toe, simple calculator, file 'manager' (a simple version of file explorer), etc.

It is free and certain questions you need to pay in order to solve them but you don't need to do that. However these tests are used by facebook, amazon, microsoft and google as they need to filter out thousands of applicants in order to get the talent they want. It is fine to learn some easy questions and some data structures then back to coding projects. Unless you wish to work in those big company.

Initially, I was learning python for AI. Was practicing libraries like numpy, pandas, matplotlib with data and realized i need to learn statistic in order to understand the AI stuffs. But then i found on that i was not building anything then i turn to learn flask as my first web app framework. Then i build a simple dictionary app with data stored in json file, no sql involved.

One day i got to know an employer on fb. He wanted to hire backend dev who know python flask and nodejs. Then we had skype interview and he mentioned i need to pass technical tests. I read the prerequisite that i need to know python flask, postgresql, git+github, as for nodejs i need to know loopback, postgresql and git+github. 3 hrs max for each test.

tbh, i need time to sharpen my flask framework skill and i have no idea what is nodejs and now i am learning, i told him i am still practicing but i think i wont be able to join him very soon.

I just visit the NEXT Academy @ TTDI just for enquiry, their part time front/back end web development include teaching format just like how udemy doing, i did asked why because the lecturer was unhappy back then due to not many students attend the part time class so the management made decision now fully online which is video tutorial with weekly on-site discussions with mentors on saturdays. and also price increased it was RM3000 and now RM3500


I put this in my mind, thank you.

In the end i decide take time to self-taught, absorb friends experience and create a portfolio instead.

This post has been edited by deyamato: Jun 12 2019, 08:26 AM

bro did they explain what do they mean by inefficient?

u can self learned programmer, but if you can view the code from another experience programmer, much better.
u will see the code is organize, proper, self-explained and new technique that u can implemented yourself.

I believe that if you show the right mentality, he's probably going to be fine giving you a chance. You'll be able to pick up all these things at a much faster rate from your colleagues.

We should remember it's close to impossible to completely remember everything in a language or framework by the word and that is why knowing how to refer to documentation is incredibly important. If your future employer understands that, you should be able to land yourself a job.

All the best to you in the near future.

I already had check over there. I guest this site mostly like back-end code. Actually i aim for front-end code. I interest in web design carrier. Nowadays they want to hire web design know for html, css and javascript. I doomeddd... I have no option, i had to be self learn. Once i step forward, i start to realized it's not easy to be self learn. Sometime i lost. Wishing that i could had knew someone that able to guide or teach me.

I learn programming language at Freecodecamp and Khanacademy. Mostly people recommend learn at CodeAcademy. This site free register and give 7 days trial. Maybe after that need to paid. Well tbh i am broke lolll T_T. I need to find free course to learn.

I learn basic html, css, javascript and jquery. Currently i try to make sure myself familiar with html and css. If i confident enough i will move to javascript. I could said mostly challenging part is learn javascript. Javascript is more to logical and math. Hoping one day i could use this skill to apply a job and show my sample work during interview. If i couldn't get a job, i will start my own small business web design and will do for hosting too.

Btw for your situation. I guess you learn Data Science right??
I saw frequently people at youtube shared they experienced work as developer and got interview with big company. Mybe you can find some inspiration over there.

Actually node.js is javascript that let you run code smoothly. Someone said that learn Phyton is easy than learn Javascript. No wonder i struggled to learn finished that basic course js but still clueless. I'll work harder after this.

All the best friend for learning and get a job.

Good luck those be self learn too.

Well that what im doing right now. i try to learn how they organized the structure code. View at page source, try to understand the structure and function code. After that i will use that code by edit, explore and see the result.

If you think coding is your passion.. You shouldn't give up. Don't mind those look down on you. Instead use that as stepping stone to rise.

Don't take it to heart when someone said your code suck. You must think there are be must reason behind that sharp word. Think again, try to figure it out which part wrong? and try to solve. By this way you learn how to improve your understanding about the code.

I think around age 40 you need to focus doing which part you good at it.

Define sucks code.

Thanks for the advises. I will continue to search for other opportunities even if i fail this round. I am working on it.

I was learning Data science in the beginning as my job is in Japanese factory. There are plenty of data but in AI i need to gather suitable data to train my model. Too bad the Japanese are very afraid of ppl stealing their tech, I cant access the data related to molding (predict yield rate). Our management are more interested to invest in hardware like machines and nobody care bout IT (forget about industry 4.0, still stuck between 1.0 and 2.0). I just able to use library like pandas, matplotlib to plot company annual reports and some vba to automate certain tasks.

I learn web app (python flask) when i wish to convert my dictionary app learn from udemy in jupyter notebook into web browser. It is very simple, just involve get and post requests and a suggestion page when user makes spelling mistake. I get my first interview is because of this app, anyway it is better to do web app likes simple e-commerce site which involve knowledge of database like sql, user authentication etc. It is advise to learn how to use git to save your project and your codes. Anyway, in order to secure a job, we need to pass their technical interviews which involve coding in a limited hours.

I learnt python before and i found javascript (nodejs) is kind of confusing for me as it uses asynchronous programming which involves concept like callback, promise and async await. I am reading this ebook and you can read it too. I also bought a course from Mosh for nodejs.
https://eloquentjavascript.net/

now self learning is cool
we have udemy and what not
and books

I'm a self-taught programmer too, but also with a CS degree.
I usually don't pay attention in class, but I do learn in my own pace.

Do I write bad code? Yes, but usually much better than experienced programmers.
I have worked with a few companies, most so called "senior programmer" sucks. I really expect them to write better code than me, and I felt disappointed.
Of course, I have seen really good one, but they are super rare.

1) there is possibility interviewer already made up his mind and going to say no to you at the end of the interview no matter the outcome.

2) you are applying for senior position thus the expectation that you already have solid fundamentals e.g. use if-else to optimize logic checking instead of individual if statements.

3) you are applying for a specialize job/role that you are not familiar with. i find it strange that design concept was part of the evaluation

I want to share all my knowledge in low-level programming (including parallel and serial port programming) on here. Coming up next is a language compiler which generates Console App, and a swap file manager (which allow you to store massive variable values in page file on disk up to exa bytes!!!)

I hate it when the US, UK, CA, AU, NZ did not allow me to emigrate because of low qualification and poor English level. I wish I could explore better life there but now I am committed to share my I.T. knowledge with Malaysians. (But I am not interested in higher level programming because many coders already familiar with them)

I am self-taughing myself with programming, graphics design, networking, and entrepreneurship. So, I wont look down on anyone who willing to leap over their comfort zone by self-learning themselves with skills.