Hi sifu, i like the convenience of having a centralized heater and lower risk of being electrocuted. Is it really safer compared with instant water heater?

What do i need to take note/check regularly for these water heaters?

Thank you

Same

storage heaters safer - just turn it off before you take your showers.

This post has been edited by idoblu: May 6 2018, 10:01 AM

If you want safer to operate storage heater, ON the heater before bath. Once water hot, turn OFF the heater. Take the bath.

Instant heater can’t.

Storage heater safer. I always do like above forumer said. And water from storage heater much more hot. The instant heater cant compare with that.

Switching off the power is 100% safest. But you must remember to switch it off. To lower the risk due to human error, you can add on a 10mA RCCB. With 10mA RCCB, both storage and instant are equally safe. Off course switching off power confirm no risk of electrocution.

Storage heater is always safer, just make sure the heater is installed higher and far from human contact & water.

just sharing my experienced regarding storage heater ...
heater

thanks ...

Hi, seems like most of the ppl here prefer storage heater. There was an accident last year on explosion of storage heater even when it's off. What do you think about it? How do we prevent similar accident from happening?

Another solution is for gas type instant heater. I am in the middle of planning my renovation and came across this solution. From my limited reading it seems the risk is no higher than a gas stove or electric instant heater. Some of the advantage - can be installed outdoor and running cost is lower than electric. However the down side is that this is not a popular solution and only one brand available.

Personally i am very tempted to give this solution a chance; simply because i am living with someone who enjoy super duper ultra long hot shower ie about 30 mins, and please dont ask me what is he doing inside there.

For the electric water storage heater there are two safety devices.

One is an electrical RCD(residual current device) & the other a PRV (temperature/pressure relief valve)

There is usually a test button to trip the RCD to see if it is working so press the trip button once a while to make sure the RCD is working

For the PRV you will need to see the hot water storage PRV drain pipe is not blocked and you can sometimes test the valve by manually pressing but hot water or steam will shoots out so be careful.

When the PRV fails the hot water cylinder becomes a cannon and will explode or rocket out its mountings making a big hole in the ceiling or take down a wall. You don't want to be nearby when that happens.

So where do you guys normally install storage heater? My place is a condo, is I want the storage heater to be shared by 2-3 rooms it's better to install it somewhere in the middle? Is it advisable to install above the plaster ceiling or it should be visible for regular check? How often do we need to check the heater to make sure it's not faulty?

Mine is a condo too. I got one heater that is installed at my aircon ledge and it supplies hot water to the whole apartment. This is not common as most condos only have a short copper pipe from mixer to the plaster ceiling above in each bathroom. So you will need to have one heater for each bathroom. But if you got two bathrooms adjacent to each other, you can get away with just one heater supplying to both bathrooms.

You worry too much. Totally unnecessary. If you worry about electrocution, just turn off your heater before showering. If you worry about explosion because of too much pressure, dont turn it on 24x7, just turn it on 10mins before showers and off during showers. No power means no heat. No heat means no pressure will build up. There is already a temperature sensor that will cut off electricity to the heater when it gets too hot. And a pressure release valve to release pressure. Both have to fail before anything bad happens. If you practice to turn off your heater off, then there is a total of 3 fail-safe

If you want a centralized heater like what I am using, then you must be prepare to hack and install copper pipes from heater to all the locations you need hot water. Btw mine is turn on 24x7

This post has been edited by idoblu: May 21 2018, 08:53 AM

Great info, thanks!

May i know roughly how much is your electric bill? how does it work actually? The water will be heated up 24x7? or only when the temperature drop to a certain level then the water will be heated up again?

safest is no heater - true story.

on a serious note - i have use gas type before.
they last practically forever.
down side is run out of gas = no heater.
so need to keep spare gas tank.

This post has been edited by COOLPINK: May 21 2018, 03:26 PM

The condo developer thought it through very well...Daikin heat pump AC is a good energy conserving candidate if they're sold here. Free hot water with AC usage.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: May 23 2018, 09:11 AM

In the UK, Cleese (whose gas regulator is sold here under the Comap brand) have auto switchers such that when one tank finishes it switches to the next but not sure if they make the interface fit for our 14kg cooking gas tanks.

This post has been edited by halcyon27: May 22 2018, 04:42 PM

many years ago i saw the aircon type heat pump water heater. i think the brand was Asics. i think some company was also selling this - i saw at Homedec

btw mine is also heat pump water heater. It has its own compressor and uses the ambient air instead to generate heat. My electric bill around RM100-250 depending on how much aircon I use so I think very little energy usage is from the water heater itself. Another plus - heat pump heaters dont have heating element so no scared of electrocution.

What is the range for storage heater installation fee? >rm500 or < rm 500?

One more model of storage type is SEERS. You can leave it on all the time and it self regulates. No direct contact with any electrical components. So far been using it, its quite stable.

yeah.. using it for long time also. never off at all.

Can ask which model is it?
Since it seems like there are not much shop selling, even Lazada also dont have much seller as well.

i chose CS-60L (60 litre) which is good enough for me since only two persons in my house.

it is not big but decent for 2 persons and with rooms to support by provinding enough hot power for more ppl to bath concurrently.

this is bolehland products and they are suprisingly good which I had used it since 2014 and it has not given me any problem so far.

it is using DC power also so it will be safer as well. but of course technically storage heater has no risk comparing to instant heater that has electronic components exposed directly inside the bathroom.

yes, super hard to find now. not many shops are selling this i think.
last time i bought it from home fair, one of the authorised seller is selling this at the fair.

http://seers.com.my/products/appliance-pro...e-water-heater/

I see. Thanks for the replies. Guess I have to call them to find out for their seller.

no prob. this is a 'niche' brand i would say, even many local bolehland ppl may not be aware of this brand.

so far so good. no complaint.
it still works like charm and i never even off it at all. 24x7 on for consistent hot water supply.
it is using DC so i supposed that even it is on 24x7 it should not consume too much electricity. it can adjust temperature as well. so technically one can adjust lower temperature for it to maintain to lower down the electricity consumption if one has no many family members at home (technically higher temperature water can be used for more ppl at once) to keep it on 24x7 i guess.

i do not know actually if storage heater should be on 24x7 or though or it should be off when not using.
(tried to find this info online but no result, if u know, do let me know as well. haha)

This post has been edited by westlife: Jun 30 2023, 11:54 AM

AC/DC does not matter (no difference) for a heater (resistive load). Mktg gimmick 1

Storage heater also same principle of dipping a metal heating element into water "like an electric kettle". Mktg gimmick 2

is it? this is what seers claim though.

not an electrician or engineer so cannot tell.
anyway, using storage heater does not have direct connect to any metal so technically it should still to be safe to used in bathroom than instant heater.

for my model, it claims that:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seers CS-60L Horizontal Single Tank DC Storage Heater 435MM (W) x 410MM (H) x 735MM (L) 60L
Description

In comparison to traditional electric storage water heater, our low energy consumption DC-Heater can reduce water heating costs up to 40%, thereby conserving energy and emitting low levels of carbon dioxide. The DC-Heater is designed for easy installation anywhere: it is compact and can be mounted on the wall in order to save space. The DC Powered Hot Water System can also be fitted into any existing storage heater household.

Features

Dimensions: 435mm (W) x 410mm (H) x 735mm (L) .
No heating elements and no risk of electrical shock.
100% hot water consistency.
Adjustable temperature.
Temperature indicator.
Eco-friendly.
Provision of safe cables.
Dry run protection.
Good insulation.
Low power usage (480 watts) rendering 60% energy saving.
Lasts for long-term usage.

This post has been edited by westlife: Jun 30 2023, 11:59 AM

surely this storage heater element doesn't look plastic to me


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u are talking about different brands?

seers is what i am referring to. i dun believe that these are marketing gimmick.

you mentioned storage heater.
the heat can create from nowhere?

lemme refresh physics class:

The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. This means that a system always has the same amount of energy, unless it's added from the outside.

via heat source via heat transfer

This post has been edited by ceo684: Jun 30 2023, 12:07 PM


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to me, if i dare to advertise that way. the way they do must be different from the rest of manufacturers.
and as a consumer, i am not into understanding so detailed of their techniical working principle.

anyway, i am happy with the product overall.

http://seers.com.my/products/appliance-pro...e-water-heater/


No Risk Of Electrocution
The SEERS Hybrid Hot Water System is the world’s first eco-friendly hybrid technology that enables users to enjoy hot water that is powered by an easy-to-operate 12 Volt DC system. The system incorporates a revolutionary technology that offers an efficient heat transfer technique, where energy is extracted from the ambient air to produce hot water without the use of heating elements, electric boosters or hermetic compressors. Using only 12-Volt DC power consumption, the system is not only cost effective, but is also very safe to use.

This post has been edited by westlife: Jun 30 2023, 12:10 PM

no zebra crossing, we only use pedestrian x-ing marketing gimmick lah.

so they using the warm side of peltier lah tu
good luck with TNB bill

This post has been edited by ceo684: Jun 30 2023, 12:11 PM

That why I am interested with Seers because of what they advertis. Was like thinking to speak to their distributor or at least see the item to make the decision.

For the heater water storage, actually what we need to look out for?
Since been survey few common brands, Joven, Alpha and Elton, all their spec looks identical to me, how do we all select or make decision?

Besides that, anyone know anything that we should be aware of when install, any precautions can take to prevent electrocution？

Make sure to have 10mA RCD fitted for each water heater + 30mA for whole house RCD.

Brand of heater up to you. All the same function (electric kettle).

This post has been edited by ceo684: Jul 1 2023, 11:53 AM


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Thanks a lots. Now I can pray the wiring guy I have would understand what this term means.

Nearly got Seers as well last time, and after I surveying around electrical stores, hearsay from a salesperson that Seers is facing trouble from SIRIM / Suruhanjaya Tenaga for marketing misrepresentation, because some Australia / New Zealand buyers got the wrong info (they thought Seers is DC-powered due to this marketing misrepresentation), so they purchased Seers storage water heater to be installed in their camper trailer or RV. And when they found out they can't use Seers in their RV, they filed multiple complaints even to SIRIM / Suruhanjaya Tenaga.


I believe in Malaysia, no electric storage water heater, regardless of brands, are DC-powered, all should be AC-powered.




This screenshot is taken from Seers' website. See how they mentioned that their storage water heater is a DC Powered Hot Water System (highlighted in yellow) but the product specification (bracketed in red) shows rated voltage is 240V and frequency is 50/60Hz.

I am no engineer so please correct me if I am wrong, but the product specification's rated voltage and frequency is basically saying the product is AC-powered, because DC should be no frequency (0Hz). I believe this is marketing misrepresentation?

Sharing my research I have done last time - there are 2 conventional storage water heaters tank technology in the market:

1. Enamel-coated tank | newer technology, more leak-resistance, and more economical - CENTON, ALPHA, MIDEA are using this.
2. Stainless steel tank | old technology, more prone to leaking at high pressure, higher material cost (stainless steel) - JOVEN and ELTON are still using this.

Hence, better to go for enamel-coated tank brands.




A quick search on Shopee, CENTON has the best-selling and the highest 5-star rated storage water heaters, eg. this Neptune Series. CENTON and ALPHA has nearly the same specs, with CENTON being slightly cheaper but ALPHA brand is more popular. MIDEA is way cheaper compared to the previous 2 Malaysian brands, maybe because MIDEA's power rating is only half of previous 2 (1.5kW for MIDEA and 3.0kW for CENTON and ALPHA), which means MIDEA takes much longer time to heat up.


Adding on to ceo684's advice, make sure the storage water heater u buy comes with and has been installed together with 2 isolation barriers (for both inlet and outlet) to prevent current leakage from water heater to u, and 1 pressure relief valve at the inlet to prevent the inner tank from overpressure which may lead to leaking tank or even worst, explosion. Most SIRIM / Suruhanjaya Tenaga approved storage water heaters should already have this prefixed together.

This post has been edited by Selene Yeo: Dec 14 2024, 10:16 PM

so now seers is quiet/disappeared from the market becos of this?

it is stated the rated power is 6xxW? does it still mean that it is more energy saving?

It’s the same. Based on power formula is P = E/t, where P means power, E means energy, and t means time in seconds. This formula states that power is the consumption of energy per unit of time.

So if the energy is 1/5th (600W vs 3kW)
It just means it will take five times longer to heat up (in a nutshell). Total energy needed is the same (assuming no cooling losses etc)

Yeah as explained clearly by ceo684, lower rated power doesn't mean energy saving at all, it just means its heating time taken to heat the same amount of water is slower compared to those with higher rated power.

For instant water heaters where their heating elements are usually only switched on when water is flowing, higher power ratings usually equates to hotter output water temperature if the water flow rates are the same; while for storage water heaters where heating also take place when water is not flowing, higher power ratings usually equates to faster heating time taken to reach to its maximum rated temperature for the same amount of water.




Also, SEERS' product description (highlighted in yellow above) mentioned it has a power consumption 3,000 Watts, but specification (bracketed in red) shows rated power at 660 Watts. Quite confusing

Additionally, one reason why I didn't get SEERS is that most conventional storage water heaters like CENTON, ALPHA, & JOVEN heats up to a max water temperature of 70-75°C, while SEERS is only 60°C. If SEERS outputs only 60°C, by the time the hot water travels thru the piping, lots of heat loss has already taken place, and the output water temperature when it reaches users might not be as hot, unless the SEERS storage water heater is placed very near to the user with minimal water travel required.

This post has been edited by Selene Yeo: Jul 10 2023, 06:27 PM

Thanks for a lot of inputs.
Side question:
Does the storage heater and solar water price different a lots? Especially for a 3 bathroom house?

Not sure about this since solar water heater is way above my budget. But I would imagine solar water heater is basically a storage water heater powered by a dedicated solar panel, hence it will be like paying for a storage water heater plus an additional solar panel. Not too sure about this.