Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son / Lest He be angry and you perish from the way; / For His anger may suddenly be kindled. /

😉


Let us kiss Him !

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 5 2018, 08:21 AM

Hello and welcome!

I know a lot of people uses this verses ... you ever ask if this refers to which kind of salvation (faith save him)?

I don't know about being dominant loh.

For me, my understanding is that the believer's eternal salvation is a matter of grace through faith alone, his reward is based on righteousness and works, and whereas the believer's eternal salvation can never be lost, his reward can be forfeited.

So, it is different then

Eh ... why are you answering me ?

Indeed salvation is of two sides of the coins. But I am afraid (I could be wrong) that your understanding might be on the "initial" salvation ... as you referenced in Eph. 2:8

For example, Paul said, "For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:19). Was not Paul saved?

"Salvation" in this verse does not refer to receiving eternal life by those who believe, but rather to Paul's release from prison.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 8 2018, 08:48 AM

Usually we say that is the reward of the kingdom. Paul overcome and finished his course to gain the crown, which the Lord will award His overcoming saints.

Clearly, this reward is not our eternal salvation, which is a gift gained freely by grace through our faith in the gospel.

That the reward is for works is clearly seen in 1 Corinthians 3, which says that each will receive his own reward “according to his own labor” (v. 8), based on his work of building upon the one foundation (v. 14).

As Paul says in 1 Cor 3:15: ... If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.







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But then ... whether the work is human effort or not ... that is another topic

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 8 2018, 09:00 AM

Lukewarm is a condition of a defeated SAVED believers

This is why the charge to overcome!

In verses 15 and 16 the Lord says, “I know your works (living), that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you out of My mouth.”

We are like this. There a times the Lord wants us to be absolute but we shrink back. You cannot say I am a back-slidded cold believers who no longer meeting with church ... but you are still there in the church ... who lost his first, burning love and lived a routine old church life, thinking of your past glories and attainments.

Need to revived by being fanning our spirit into flame and be hotly in love with the Lord




This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 8 2018, 09:13 AM

Yes. Yes. This understanding solved the parables of the 10 virgins, talents, narrow way etc.

Like I mentioned before, Hebrews become a new book if you have this understanding.

XD

I think Stanley Porter (American academic specializing in New Testament studies) made some comments on it

I think his conclusion was:



It could be the Lord sovereignly prepared a church that in a city that is suffering from the same condition and also provide a spiritual "imagery" ...

Food for thought

They are ... I think. Hemer speculates that the parellel conditions are like these:

poverty/gold to Laodicea as a banking centre;

blindness/salve to Laodicea as a medical centre;

nakedness/clothing to a centre of the woollen industry;

The text do show somewhat ... they think they are rich


Also, it was speculated that the Laodiceans had no natural springs for fresh water or at least not enough for their growing population, they likely were forced to pipe in whatever water they could. And this
water was probably transported to them lukewarm from the two near regions Hierapolis (hot water) and Colossae (cold water) ...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 8 2018, 10:02 AM

Hello, .... no really I was trying to raise a point which I did with desmond.

You are right about the sanctification ....

On the one hand, the Bible speaks of justification before sanctification (Rom. 6:19). But on the other hand, there is a sense in which sanctification comes first and justification follows (1 Cor. 6:11). In this sense, God's justification must go according to the standard of sanctification. If we are not sanctified, then we cannot be justified.

But if to be really strict about it ..... there are 3 aspects:

The Spirit's sanctification in seeking the God-chosen people before their repentance (1 Pet. 1:2).
The sanctification by the blood of Christ at the time of the believers' believing (Heb. 13:12; 9:13-14; 10:29).
The Spirit's dispositional / inward sanctification in the believers' full course of their Christian life (Rom. 15:16b; 6:19, 22).

Not only that .... usually I don't read matter of salvation to the foot washing ... but the Lord's word to Peter after he nonsensically went to one extreme ... XD

Verse 10 says, "Jesus said to him, He who is bathed has no need except to wash his feet, but is wholly clean."

Those who are bathed refers to the baptism (Acts 22:16).

Although we Christians are bathed once only (We are eternally saved), the Bible shows us that foot-washing happens many times.

We are bathed only once, and all our sins are washed. But it takes many foot-washings to wash away all the dirt while living on earth and coming into contact with the world every day (1 John).

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 8 2018, 01:19 PM

Much grace to his family. He was one who have real burden for the gospel and he preaches a genuine and living gospel. He cares only that people hear the gospel. He does not care who hears the gospel.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 22 2018, 09:28 AM

It is only an oxymoron if you have a hidden premise in your mind that defeated = unsaved. Then, an "unsaved SAVED" believer is an oxymoron.
But my point stands, in Revelation 2, there are the call for overcomers, the opposite of overcome is defeat(ed).

Secondly, I have not confused reward with salvation. You should address that question to your pastor friend.

Discipleship is just one aspect of the revealed Word. Furthermore, the meaning of "discipling them" into the gospel of the kingdom is not merely about the initial salvation. It is to make them the proper subjects of the heavenly kingdom. Even if I give you that it is only about being saved, it is too narrow to say the Bible is only about discipleship.

How about sons of God, partakers of the divine nature, heirs of God, priests of God, slaves of God, brothers of Christ as the firstborn Son of God, members of Christ as the Head of the Body, partakers of Christ, slaves of Christ, priests of Christ, co-kings of Christ, partakers of the Holy Spirit, and heavenly citizens?

With regards to "many won't make it", 1 Peter 4:17, says, "Because it is time for the judgement to begin from the house of God." Here we see that disciplinary judgement begins from God’s own house. God’s house, or household, is the church composed of the believers. From this house, as His own house, God begins His governmental administration by His disciplinary judgement over His own children, that He may have strong ground to judge, in His universal kingdom, those who are disobedient to His gospel and rebellious to His government.

So, we will all be judged.

You have misunderstood what I say based on your Arminianism view. We do get the reward based what we built on the foundations.

I am not saying to be lawless since we are saved BUT RATHER, we have be perfect as the heavenly father is perfect. Our living and work will be judged at the judgement seat so we cannot be lax. We have a responsibility and accountabiltiy to God for our life and work in this age.

This means we have to live out Christ (Phil 1:21), love Him to the uttermost, mature in the divine life, faithful in our service (Luke 12:42-47), reign with Christ etc etc.

This is nothing to do with eternal salvation but rather, God is righteous in that if we do not experience his ongoing salvation, we will be disciplined - and NOT inherit the kingdom of the heavens as a reward.

This solved the favourite refutation thrown by the Arminianism view that we can just live as before since we are saved, and which the Calvinistic view did not address (false security and absent of visible fruits of Christian living).

You have to contend with verses like these:

1 Cor. 3:15 "If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

1 Cor 5 indicates that a brother who is living in fornication will still be saved. Even such a sinful, defeated believer will still be saved. But in chapter 6 we are told that fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God. This means that a fornicator cannot enjoy or inherit the kingdom of the heavens as a reward.

The three portions of the Bible, 1 Corinthians 6, Ephesians 5, and Galatians 5 tell us basically the same thing: you may be a saved person, but if you are still living in sin and filthiness, you will not inherit the kingdom of God. You will have no share in the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens, because you are not qualified.

Ah ya, I wish you won't do this. You have your own mind to consider these things. Don't be a third wheel in this. If he wants to contact me directly, then let him do that. I don't like this kind of approach.

For your sake, I will answer them for you below but please don't forward the replies back to him. I will not answer them.

I use spoilers then.



Wow ... that is quite a straw man. We all have to define the terms we used and try to be as close as possible to the exact meaning used in the Bible for a discussion. Yet, that accusation that salvation has different meanings is really unjustified.

What I meant of salvation is as follows: in his epistle to the Romans, the Apostle Paul presents the broad scope of God's salvation. “For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled” (Romans 5:10).

For Paul, salvation incorporates a participation in the grace of God encompassing two aspects—reconciliation to God through the death of His Son (redemption for simplicity) and salvation by God in the life of His Son. “Having been reconciled,” Paul tells us, there is still “much more,” a further salvation “in His life.”

Then, a question is asked: “Have you been saved? Are you sure that you have been saved? If you have been saved, why does this verse say that we shall be saved?” Romans 5:10 compels the question: What is this “much more” salvation?

What is sanctification (Rom 6:19), renewing (12:2), transformation (12:2), conformation (Rom 8:29) in the salvation of God as presented by Paul in later parts of Romans? What about law of the Spirit of life freeing us? (Rom 8:2). What about Triune God making three parts of our being life? (Rom 8:2, 9, 11) etc. etc.

After all, Romans is a book concerning the gospel of His Son (Rom 1:9).



Well, someone is trying to define his terms

No one is disputing that each Christian faces the fire in that God do deals with us in the present age. But is incomplete to say that God's dealing with us is only in the present age. Yet, I find it very confusing at times when he made a point in case that 1 Cor 3 refers to the PRESENT experience of a believer, yet he begins with "...not necessarily held off until the end of time", which refute his own premise. XD

Furthermore, verse 13 shows "the work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it (r. 1:8; 2 Thes. 1:10; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:8;) i.e. the day of Christ's second appearing.

Secondly, I cannot follow the thought ... how is that related to eternal salvation since the each Christian is building on the foundation of Christ in the church?

Thirdly, what I am presenting is that there is a concept that inheritance has both soteriological and eschatological dimensions. In other words, a truth can be of the subjective experience of the believers today and ALSO be future “condition and possessions”, for lack of a better term.



The Greek word, misthos, translated as reward and its primary usage, however, is as an award for victors of athletic contests as a symbol of their triumph; hence, by metonymy, a reward or prize” (Vine, Dictionary 258). Vine further adds that it primarily meant wages, hire and then generally reward.

The most frequent corresponding verb to it in the New Testament is apodidómi, which is translated as repay in Matthew 6:4, 6, 18, and 16:27.

Second Corinthians 5:10 says "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Each of the believers will “receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad.”

Receive here is “the technical word for receiving wages” (Alford 661). As to the issue of the judgment seat, Vine and Scofield both allude to
1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Vine concludes, “At this bema believers are to be made manifest.…There they will receive rewards for their faithfulness to the Lord. For all that has been contrary in their lives to His will they will suffer loss”.

Scofield concurs, The judgment of the believer’s works, not sins, is in question here. These have been atoned for, and are “remembered no more forever” (Heb. 10:17); but every work must come into judgment.…The result is “reward” or “loss” (of the reward), “but he himself shall be saved.” (1233)

Wilkinson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Wilkinson) concurs with these definitions. Concerning misthos, for example, he renders Luke 6:23 as, “Your misthos [wages] are great in heaven” (Devotional 25). He similarly cites verse 35 and Matthew 5:12, in which misthos is translated as reward, and 1 Timothy 5:18, Matthew 20:8, and James 5:4, in which it is translated as wages, the labor of the faithful believers (Bible Study 26).

Concerning apodidómi, he appropriately cites Luke 10:35, Luke 14:14, Matthew 6:4, and 16:27 for repay. He then concludes his word study with Hebrews 11:6, in which God’s nature is shown to be that of “a rewarder[misthos-apodidomai]”

Lastly, I will concur, for our present experience, the Epistle of Peter refers to God’s government in that sufferings are used by God to prove and try the believers’ faith; this produces preciousness, praise, glory, and honor. (1 Peter 1:6-7).



I have shown from the above about wages and reward. Also, he didn't quote 1 Cor 9:24:

24 Do you not know that those who run on a racecourse all run, but one receives the prize? Run in this way, that you may lay hold.

Well, Paul is concerned for his reward



This is the most ironic section in that the previous section, he is making a "present experience" case, now, he switches to the future experience with OSAS verses. This is not very consistent and subjected to some kind of theological view he holds.

Again, I present both aspects which not only address his concerns but is consistent in its interpretation.


J. Eichler (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis Set) states:

In the book of Colossians itself, the notion that Christ, as the land, is for the believers’ present portion is confirmed in chapter two where Paul speaks of walking in Christ (v. 6), just as Abraham and the Israelites possessed the promised land through walking in it (Gen. 13:17; Deut. 11:24-25). The metaphor “having been rooted...in Him” is also used of Israel’s possession of the land of Canaan (Col. 2:7; Psa. 44:2) and confirms that the possession of Christ as the good land begins at the commencement of the Christian walk. Moreover, Paul was commissioned to preach the unsearchable riches of Christ to the Gentiles (Eph. 3:8).It is something that is partaken of by the believers today in the way of foretaste (Eph. 1:14).

This fits the pledge in Eph 1, where in ancient times, the Greek word for pledge was used in the purchase of land. The seller gave the buyer a sample of the soil from the land being purchased. Hence, a pledge, according to... Spirit in us. Second Corinthians 1:21-22 says, "But He who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God, Who has also sealed us and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts."

We have the foretaste today and the full taste in the future (if we earn it).

Eichler continues:

The word for allotted portion, ktims, is not the usual word for inheritance, which is kleronomia. The former is used for inheritance only here and in Acts 26:18. All other occurrences in the New Testament refer to a present, shared portion. For example, Judas Iscariot had a portion (kleros) of the ministry of the apostles (1:17); Peter declared to Simon of Samaria in 8:21 that he had no share (merida) or portion (kleros) in the present matter of the giving of the Spirit (both words occurring in Colossians 1:12 are present in this verse); the elders shepherd the believers as their present allotment (kleros) from God (1 Pet. 5:3).

I will add to Matthew 19:29:

Luke 18:29 — Luke 18:30
29 And He said to them, Truly I say to you that there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God,

30 Who shall not by all means receive back many times as much in this time, and in the coming age, eternal life.

In other words, Hebrew 9:15 is for our present experience as Eicher mentioned "...salvation is future and yet present comes from our being inheritors through Jesus Christ (Eph 1:11–12) and his death (Heb 9:15)."

To be fair, I will present the his side of future reward

The kingdom reward in Hebrews 10:36 is different from the promise in 9:15. The promise in 10:36 is the promise of the Sabbath rest mentioned in 4:9, in which we shall participate in the reign of Christ in the coming kingdom. That will be the great reward mentioned in verse 35 for the gaining of the soul mentioned in verse 39. This is conditioned on our endurance and doing the will of God. The promise in 9:15 is the promise of eternal inheritance based upon Christ’s eternal redemption, not on our work. The eternal inheritance in the promise in 9:15 is by the eternal redemption of Christ, whereas the great reward (v. 5) in the promise in 10:36 is for our reward in doing the will of God.

The will of God mentioned in 10:36 was for the Hebrew believers to take the new covenant way (vv. 19-23) and remain with the church (v. 25), not shrinking back to Judaism (vv. 38-39) but suffering persecution (vv. 32-34). For this they will receive the promise of a great reward at the Lord’s coming back. The promise of eternal inheritance is included in God’s eternal salvation. The promise found in 10:36 is the reward for the overcomers, while the eternal inheritance is for all the believers who have received eternal salvation.

In conclusion, what I am offering is a synthesis, the truth of the judgment seat of Christ and the accountability, reward, and punishment of the believers (millennial kingdom is another topic) which will not disrupt the basic principle of perseverance - preserved uto their final saltvation. Our eternal salvation is entirely apart from works done before or after we believe. This encompasses today's subjective experience and our reward in the future.


<Wasting too much time with this.... back to real life...>

Unfortunately, no. Now, you know me before that I do not subscribe to matter of "going to heaven" but this is another topic in the past. After all, the New Jerusalem is coming down, it will be pretty lonely in the heaven.



In Galatians 5:21 Paul, referring to the works of the flesh, says, “Those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” The inheritance of the kingdom of God refers to the enjoyment of the coming kingdom as a reward to the overcoming believers. It is not related to a believer’s salvation. Those believers who practice the works of the flesh listed in Galatians 5 will not inherit the coming kingdom as a reward.

In Ephesians 5:5b Paul speaks of a believer’s “inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” The kingdom of Christ is the millennium (Rev. 20:4, 6; Matt. 16:28); it is also the kingdom of God (Matt. 13:41, 43). The believers have been regenerated into the kingdom of God (John 3:5) and in the church life, are living in the kingdom of God today (Rom. 14:17).

However, not all believers will participate in the millennium; only the overcoming ones will. The defeated believers will have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God in the coming age.

It is righteous . The 1000 years millennium will either be a prize to overcoming believers or "summer school of outer darkness" to make us mature. Then in eternity, all will be fully the duplication of full expression of God on this earth.

The overcomers will enjoy it first i.e. the firstfruits. This is my goal today ... and it should be our goal.

It is interesting to note that this truth was present with the early church fathers.

The eminent church historian Philip Schaff writes,



Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian have also mentioned this. Justin, the greatest of the second-century apologists and the most prolific Christian writer:


"I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. (Dialogue with Trypho)"

But to keep the story short, the first one who waver from it was Origen since he dislike it because of his tainted Gnostic view that the physical body, and the material world has no place in eternity. It is not easy for one avoid being entangled one from it.

After that, it went downhill .... this truth is almost gone and became the foundation of purgatory ...... hope yeeck didn't read this

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 23 2018, 12:33 PM

Don't like that .... then someone will say something and we will be in trouble

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 23 2018, 01:17 PM

Oh yeah it does sounds familiar ... see my answer to sophiera.

Cheers!

Did you read what I wrote?


On the one hand, I will have to render my account at the Lord's coming back for the reward of the kingdom. That is enough to cause you to fear and tremble in your living. This is why it's the kingdom. There is a governmental dealing in this universe according to Peter.

On the other hand, the Spirit is operating within; When we want to do something that is against the Spirit, you will feel the forbidding within. Your conscience will accuse you. This is the experience of a believer. He is also judging us when we go beyond. There is a living Person inside us.

This solves your favourite argument.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 23 2018, 01:14 PM

Brother,

I do encourage you to pursue a bit. Most of these conundrums will disappear once you understand the layers in the Word. Firstly, the truths in the Bible is always two-fold. E.g. Triune God is three yet one. Christ is God and man etc etc.

The first is spoken according to His divinity. The other according to His humanity. The Lord Jesus is God. He existed in the form of God and shared the same place and glory as God. Yet He emptied Himself. The Lord did not empty His Godhead. He emptied God's form, glory, and position. He did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped. This is the model of God man living.

Furthermore most trinitarian verses are easily solved when you know the distinction between the immanent Trinity and the economical Trinity.

From the point of view of salvation, God does not judge but rather chose to save the world. Even as a man, Jesus teaches to be a proper citizens living in the kingdom, we do not judge others for our judgement of others is the expression of our view of others. Our view is inward, but our judgment is outward.

But God is the Judge (Psa. 75:6-7); We don't judge others because God is the Righteous Judge in the universe.

We don't understand that we are already under God's judgement because God has to judge the unrighteous because He is righteous. If He doesn't judge, Satan can accuse God of being unrighteous and that will be catastrophe.

If we reject the way of salvation, then God has no choice but to judge for He is righteous.

Also, if you read further in John 5, For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

Christ will come back to judge according to His humanity.


You will be surprised that some are solved by looking at the context.

Anyway, I am a lazy bum. Some of them are quite a topic by themselves ... e.g. the laws

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 23 2018, 02:56 PM

Indeed, perhaps . My point is that it is a given thing in their understanding. Almost assumed, that's all. That's why he could ask is Jerusalem it?


lol ... sure bro. I blamed Augustine


Much grace!

This post has been edited by pehkay: Feb 23 2018, 02:51 PM

Ah ... why don't you start ... on the a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years?

Definitely, the gospel's purpose itself is to present the Savior as a genuine, normal, and perfect Man and His salvation in the highest standard of morality.

What does the case show with regards to the Lord?